GUR and Old Cup Holes

[DaveLeeNC]

My brother ran into this in a casual round and asked me the following question. If your ball is on the putting green and there is an old 'cup hole' (that was not replaced with the greatest of care and/or skill) is your line of play, can this be considered GUR and get free relief? In the case of a double green you do get relief from 'the other hole'. My instincts are no relief - comments? It certainly was a 'hole made by a greenskeeper' at one point in time. But so are aeration holes (interpreting the phrase literally) and no relief there (except by local rule). 

 

Thanks.

 

dave

[sui generis]

It is not GUR, but R13.1c2 tells you what you may do with regard to repairing damage on the putting green.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=13&subrulenum=1

 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by sui generis

[DaveLeeNC]

Thanks, @sui generis. And since that rule specifically refers to 'old hole plugs' as one of those things that you can repair, that is a pretty solid statement of no relief. 

 

dave

[sui generis]

29 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Thanks, @sui generis. And since that rule specifically refers to 'old hole plugs' as one of those things that you can repair, that is a pretty solid statement of no relief. 

 

dave

 

There's not line-of-play relief for an old hole plug, but you may tamp it down or otherwise make reasonable efforts to smooth it.

 

Your second question about the "other" hole on a double green is different. That "other" hole is an immovable obstruction. You're entitled to line-of-play relief if your ball is already on the green. See 16.1d for the whole story.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

There's not line-of-play relief for an old hole plug, but you may tamp it down or otherwise make reasonable efforts to smooth it.

 

Your second question about the "other" hole on a double green is different. That "other" hole is an immovable obstruction. You're entitled to line-of-play relief if your ball is already on the green. See 16.1d for the whole story.

 

I thought we all came to an agreement in the other thread that the other hole is GUR.

[Newby]

Any hole made by the Committee or the maintenance staff in:

• Setting up the course (such as a hole where a stake has been removed or the hole on a double green being used for the play of another hole), 

[sui generis]

7 minutes ago, Newby said:

Any hole made by the Committee or the maintenance staff in:

• Setting up the course (such as a hole where a stake has been removed or the hole on a double green being used for the play of another hole), 

 

Sometimes a thing can be two things, one of which it is and one of which it isn't but still is. 😉

[limegreengent]

Sui Generis

 

You are just digging " a deeper hole " for yourself with such a defensive statement 😂😂😂

 

[sui generis]

8 minutes ago, limegreengent said:

Sui Generis

 

You are just digging " a deeper hole " for yourself with such a defensive statement 😂😂😂

 

 

I'll live. 🙂

 

I have a hard time pointing to something that's clearly not "under repair" and telling the player that it's ground under repair. They'll look at you as if you've lost your mind. I have then to hide behind a Definition. Then they think both I and the ruling bodies are nuts.

 

ps The crowd here put up with me on this. They've been kind over the years. 😉

[Newby]

I've found that a large number of competitors with a bad lie look for a nearby hole. They will claim it is made by a burrowing animal or made by a greenkeeper. They do seem to distinguish between GUR and 'holes'. Holes made by greenkeepers are special.

[sui generis]

17 minutes ago, Newby said:

I've found that a large number of competitors with a bad lie look for a nearby hole. They will claim it is made by a burrowing animal or made by a greenkeeper. They do seem to distinguish between GUR and 'holes'. Holes made by greenkeepers are special.

 

I know, I know. But for me, holes made by the greenskeeper are made with shovels. They're not neat little things lined with metal and plastic. Those "neat little things lined with metal and plastic" are much more like sprinkler heads. 

[jimbo123]

57 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I'll live. 🙂

 

I have a hard time pointing to something that's clearly not "under repair" and telling the player that it's ground under repair. They'll look at you as if you've lost your mind. I have then to hide behind a Definition. Then they think both I and the ruling bodies are nuts.

 

ps The crowd here put up with me on this. They've been kind over the years. 😉

Strikes me as similar to the way the rules allow any ball to be treated as “unplayable” even when clearly playable.  I do think the definition of the other hole as GUR seems nuts, but if a referee pointed me to it, I absolutely wouldn’t think they were “hiding”, I’d just be happy there was such a clearcut and simple answer.  

[Shilgy]

5 hours ago, sui generis said:

It is not GUR, but R13.1c2 tells you what you may do with regard to repairing damage on the putting green.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=13&subrulenum=1

 

 

Am I misremembering in my old age? Before the current rules weren’t we allowed to treat a poorly placed hole as GUR on our own if unable to repair it? Meaning move the ball on the green to the nearest point no nearer etc so that that old plug no longer interfered with the line of play?

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Am I misremembering in my old age? Before the current rules weren’t we allowed to treat a poorly placed hole as GUR on our own if unable to repair it? Meaning move the ball on the green to the nearest point no nearer etc so that that old plug no longer interfered with the line of play?

Not that I recall.

[oikos1]

3 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Sometimes a thing can be two things, one of which it is and one of which it isn't but still is. 😉

Lol.  You mean like a rule that a group of rules "experts" cannot agree upon? 

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Lol.  You mean like a rule that a group of rules "experts" cannot agree upon? 

Usually it's the facts of the situation that are in doubt, not the Rules.

[Sawgrass]

2 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Lol.  You mean like a rule that a group of rules "experts" cannot agree upon? 

At least we can agree upon the fact that the relief from such an obstacle on the green is identical whether one believes it is a GUR hole or an obstruction.  And all under one rule, 16.1. 
 

(Kind of a feather in the cap of our fine rules, methinks.)

[antip]

Some additional observations: on my course, 'other' holes come in a few flavours. There is the example the OP raises, spots (often multiple if the holes are changed often) that have received the hole plug from recently used holes - and as noted above there is no line of play relief for these, they are just putting green but the player can 'repair'. That can still be a problem if the sod is sunk too deep but that is tough luck from a play perspective. 

We also have the next to be used hole sunk and covered with a piece of artificial turf, to streamline a weekend changeover of the holes. That 'hole' is an immovable obstruction, so line of play relief attaches for a ball at rest on the putting green.

Certain times of the year, we also have an additional wrinkle - multiple bird damage which is GUR. And often that bird damage is around the edge of the hole (easier for the birds to dig), so it is common for greens staff to have to do emergency hole change and the damaged hole just filled with new hole plug sod gets sanded around the dug up edge of the hole. Consequently, that replaced hole sod becomes GUR by virtue of being surrounded by animal damage.

[rogolf]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

Some additional observations: on my course, 'other' holes come in a few flavours. There is the example the OP raises, spots (often multiple if the holes are changed often) that have received the hole plug from recently used holes - and as noted above there is no line of play relief for these, they are just putting green but the player can 'repair'. That can still be a problem if the sod is sunk too deep but that is tough luck from a play perspective. 

We also have the next to be used hole sunk and covered with a piece of artificial turf, to streamline a weekend changeover of the holes. That 'hole' is an immovable obstruction, so line of play relief attaches for a ball at rest on the putting green.

Certain times of the year, we also have an additional wrinkle - multiple bird damage which is GUR. And often that bird damage is around the edge of the hole (easier for the birds to dig), so it is common for greens staff to have to do emergency hole change and the damaged hole just filled with new hole plug sod gets sanded around the dug up edge of the hole. Consequently, that replaced hole sod becomes GUR by virtue of being surrounded by animal damage.

A question about hole plugs and repair.  If there is a plug from yesterday's hole that is significantly below (say a quarter inch or so) the level of the putting green, can I "repair" by removing the plug and putting some sand (say from a nearby bunker) in the hole and then replacing the plug so that it is now level with the putting surface?  It goes to the definition of "repair".

[antip]

10 minutes ago, rogolf said:

A question about hole plugs and repair.  If there is a plug from yesterday's hole that is significantly below (say a quarter inch or so) the level of the putting green, can I "repair" by removing the plug and putting some sand (say from a nearby bunker) in the hole and then replacing the plug so that it is now level with the putting surface?  It goes to the definition of "repair".

I'm aware of nothing that says you can't, but there is a significant practical dimension - without the right tool, I can't see how it is possible to do this without risking an even bigger problem. 

[rogolf]

42 minutes ago, antip said:

I'm aware of nothing that says you can't, but there is a significant practical dimension - without the right tool, I can't see how it is possible to do this without risking an even bigger problem. 

I've easily taken out a hole plug (or portion thereof) with a ball repair tool - it just depends on the depth of the grass roots.

[2bGood]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

I've found that a large number of competitors with a bad lie look for a nearby hole. They will claim it is made by a burrowing animal or made by a greenkeeper. They do seem to distinguish between GUR and 'holes'. Holes made by greenkeepers are special.

What if an animal is mascot of the greens crew and thus on honorary greenskeeper? 

[sui generis]

10 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Lol.  You mean like a rule that a group of rules "experts" cannot agree upon? 

 

I'm sure no harm will come your way that you don't know what we're talking about. 🙄

[antip]

7 hours ago, rogolf said:

I've easily taken out a hole plug (or portion thereof) with a ball repair tool - it just depends on the depth of the grass roots.

Here the hole plug is a single tightly fitted 6 inch deep plug, it is not practical to lift with the same tool the greenkeeper uses.

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, antip said:

We also have the next to be used hole sunk and covered with a piece of artificial turf, to streamline a weekend changeover of the holes. That 'hole' is an immovable obstruction, so line of play relief attaches for a ball at rest on the putting green.

 

 

I must lack some understanding of the sentence there as I cannot understand why would you use artificial turf as there is natural turf coming up from the new hole. Care to explain it in more detail?

[DaveLeeNC]

57 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I must lack some understanding of the sentence there as I cannot understand why would you use artificial turf as there is natural turf coming up from the new hole. Care to explain it in more detail?

 

In the winter our club uses fixed hole positions (typically 3 of them). We have bermuda greens which are dormant in the winter. I think they move them maybe once or twice a season. They alternate which hole on a daily basis, and the 2 unused holes are covered with a tightly fitting 'cap' that seems to be to be made out of some kind of very firm foam (about a half inch thick). There is a local rule in place that defines the relief that is available - it is basically line of play relief and stance relief. 

 

Not quite the same as the referenced statement, but possibly all that is happening is postponing replacing the old holes with plugs for whatever reason.  

 

dave

Edited June 20, 2021 by DaveLeeNC

[antip]

55 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I must lack some understanding of the sentence there as I cannot understand why would you use artificial turf as there is natural turf coming up from the new hole. Care to explain it in more detail?

They cut a second hole in the green and put an artificial turf cover on it. Then changing the holes only requires swapping the artificial cover and the flagstick, ie can be done very quickly.

[antip]

15 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Am I misremembering in my old age? Before the current rules weren’t we allowed to treat a poorly placed hole as GUR on our own if unable to repair it? Meaning move the ball on the green to the nearest point no nearer etc so that that old plug no longer interfered with the line of play?

I have seen that operating in some local pro-am tournaments as a specific local rule that the pros requested.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, antip said:

They cut a second hole in the green and put an artificial turf cover on it. Then changing the holes only requires swapping the artificial cover and the flagstick, ie can be done very quickly.

 

So... you have two holes, one in use and the other covered with this 'lid'. That means two drills are needed to fill those holes when Monday comes. Where do they get those two drills as the ones drilled out for the weekend must be dry by now?

 

I do not get it... 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

I do not get it... 

 

Worry about something else, Mr Bean. This maintenance practice works just fine. 🙄