Could a 4 Handicap beat Bryson on the back 9 at Torrey?

[JohnnyCashForever]

You're a 3.  What do you think?  Could you have beaten BAD's back 9 on Sunday?

 

I'm sure a lot of WRXers have played Torrey Pines.  It is public after all.  It'd be interesting to hear what the single digit caps shot there from the back tees (with no gimmes or mulligans).  Even if it wasn't anywhere near US Open conditions, it might give everyone else a sense of how difficult the course is under normal conditions.

[tiderider]

3 hours ago, webwarmiller said:

I know 4hcps that carry it over 280 and others only about 225.  Relating driving distance to HDCP is about as accurate as relating it to inseam length...

k .. as do i ... i'm giving what i think might be an average ... and there is generally a correlation between distance and hcp, to some degree ... 

Edited June 21, 2021 by tiderider

[caniac6]

9 minutes ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

You're a 3.  What do you think?  Could you have beaten BAD's back 9 on Sunday?

 

I'm sure a lot of WRXers have played Torrey Pines.  It is public after all.  It'd be interesting to hear what the single digit caps shot there from the back tees (with no gimmes or mulligans).  Even if it wasn't anywhere near US Open conditions, it might give everyone else a sense of how difficult the course is under normal conditions.

I asked the question tongue-in-cheek. I was just surprised about the huge turn from his front 9. Even without the 8, he still would have would have been 4 over on the back.. 

[orr444]

Played hazeltine week after 91 open. The par 3 8th we couldn't find the ball in greenside rough, not to mention length and greens. 4 handicap putting out doesn't break 100.

[Shilgy]

8 hours ago, PJE said:

Well, at least on the snowman hole. Nothing like rifling a shot right over the green. 

DeChambeau is trying analytics and a technical approach to tame the game.  Ultimately, it won't work and I suspect it's the root cause for his oddly timed missteps with shorter irons and touch shots. 

He also seems like an immature and petulant person so maybe that overwhelms him at times ? And then when he's a snit, everything goes haywire?

I think DeChambeau as the most successful golfer who has drawn inspiration from Homer Kelley of Golfing Machine fame. The only other Golfing Machine guy I can think of that was good was Bobby Clampett and Clampett's career melted down after two rounds at Troon. 

Analytics have been used in golf forever but now it has a name(s) and is advertised.  All it is is knowing your tendencies and comparing hat to the shot at hand. Every top player has plotted their way around he course so if that is his downfall all others are doomed as well.

[MtlJeff]

1 hour ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

You're a 3.  What do you think?  Could you have beaten BAD's back 9 on Sunday?

 

I'm sure a lot of WRXers have played Torrey Pines.  It is public after all.  It'd be interesting to hear what the single digit caps shot there from the back tees (with no gimmes or mulligans).  Even if it wasn't anywhere near US Open conditions, it might give everyone else a sense of how difficult the course is under normal conditions.

 

I was a 1.8 when i played it from the 1-up tees under tournament (but not US open) conditions. I don't think a 4 index would break 45 which i mentioned on page 1. If you put 25 of the out there, some of them would. But on average, i think it would be 45+

 

The rough can be really, really bad there. And a non-pro would make double or triple out of some of the lies you get. There are holes which aren't so bad. 10 and 17 play 400 or less so a good drive and an 8 iron and they feel like easy holes. I had tap-in pars on 13 and 18 (i played 13 from the tips just for fun). On 16 i hit a beauty and had a 10 footer for birdie

 

The problem is you get some atrocious lies. On #11 i could barely find my ball right off the green. #12 is a monster. You get lies so bad you have to hit lob wedge just to get it back to the fairway.

 

I think you'd make a few pars for sure. But they'd be offset by a few doubles and triples.

 

But on your best day, you could do it. You just have to hit fairways.

[cardoustie]

As a 2.2, 50% chance, par the par 5’s and bogey the others, still swing 110 and straight driving is my thing

[farmer]

A 4 on a neutrally rated course would be shooting around 80 on a normal day.  So, 40 on each nine.  I suspect the back nine at Torrey is more than 5 shots harder than the back nine at Bent Wedge Golf and Social Club.

[Obee]

2 hours ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

You're a 3.  What do you think?  Could you have beaten BAD's back 9 on Sunday?

 

I'm sure a lot of WRXers have played Torrey Pines.  It is public after all.  It'd be interesting to hear what the single digit caps shot there from the back tees (with no gimmes or mulligans).  Even if it wasn't anywhere near US Open conditions, it might give everyone else a sense of how difficult the course is under normal conditions.

 

I played the day after the Farmers in 2013. Same tees, same pins. Shot 76 as a tourney +1ish at the time. The course this year played about 1.5 shots tougher for the pros for the Open than it did for the 2013 Farmers.

 

Without question a 4 index could best Bryson's score. He could also shoot 56.

 

Remember that Justin Timberlake was a 6.0 index when he shot 98 there in U.S. Open Conditions, so a 4 could certainly shoot 43 or 44 on one of his better nines. The following(?) year he shot in the 80's at Bethpage Black in U.S. Open conditions.

[TiScape]

3 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

Remember that Justin Timberlake was a 6.0 index when he shot 98 there in U.S. Open Conditions, so a 4 could certainly shoot 43 or 44 on one of his better nines. The following(?) year he shot in the 80's at Bethpage Black in U.S. Open conditions.

No mere mortal can be compared with the original JT in anything! 

[Obee]

7 minutes ago, TiScape said:

No mere mortal can be compared with the original JT in anything! 

 

I've played with the guy. Great dude. "Call me Justin," he says to us when we met him in the bar at my favorite hang in America.

[flip flappy]

I'm not going to get into could a 4 handicap beat Bryson as I think it was just a funny way of saying it was a meltdown of epic proportions. I was watching when BDC had finished up hole 10 and walked outside to do a few things and hit a few balls. I was thinking that it was very possible for him to win and be a back to back US Open champion, just like BK. How ironic would that be with the stuff going on between them? I came back inside to see a completely changed scoreboard and this was before the quad. The 17th hole was hard to watch. Meltdown city. As far a Louis, he did hit a bad tee shot on 17 but was able to keep his composure and was really close to saving par. A birdie on 18 from the rough, not too shabby. I know a lot of people thought he should have gone for the green, but I think he knew he couldn't get it up there. BDC has his name on the US Open trophy but  Louis does have his name on the Claret Jug. Overall, a great US Open win for Rahm, which he really deserved after the Memorial fiasco. I think we will see Rahm hoist another major trophy before BDC does or even slip on a green jacket. 

[oikos1]

6 hours ago, RobotDoctor said:

A 4 handicap golfer isn't good enough to even enter qualifications.  
 

The simple answer is why do these ridiculous threads keep coming up?  Maybe it is because many members here have some idealistic view that the courses they play are on par with the courses set up for the the majors, let alone a regular PGA Tour event.  🙄

It's not even the courses played as much as it is inflated golfer ego (and that can either be a powerful and much needed intangible or an absolute train wreck).  No one gives a rats a** if someone says they can beat Bryson or any other pro, male or female, on one of their worst golfing days.  Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't.  The hard, cold truth is the 4 or the 2.4 or the +1 aren't the ones at the dance every week. 

 

However, it is exceptional entertainment value when enjoying an evening cocktail so keep it coming!

[RobotDoctor]

2 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

It's not even the courses played as much as it is inflated golfer ego (and that can either be a powerful and much needed intangible or an absolute train wreck).  No one gives a rats a** if someone says they can beat Bryson or any other pro, male or female, on one of their worst golfing days.  Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't.  The hard, cold truth is the 4 or the 2.4 or the +1 aren't the ones at the dance every week. 

 

However, it is exceptional entertainment value when enjoying an evening cocktail so keep it coming!

 

I definitely agree that there are a lot of inflated egos here.  There is a difference playing at the local muni or average club compared to teeing it up with the best players in the world on a weekly basis.  I guarantee you that the courses are not set up like the courses most of the egos here play, even if the course has hosted a tour event or major championship.  The conditions are certainly harder when a big time tournament is put on.  It is what it is.

[jwb10]

8 hours ago, tacklingdummy said:

But if Bryson didn't play poorly, we would never know that someone smuggled a Stella Artois 12-pack into the US Open. Market value for that 12-pack at US Open is probably $200 bucks. 😂

Should be Mich. Ultra, Brooksie !

[dubbelbogey]

I have zero doubt that this thread was started as a tounge-in-cheek way to poke a bit of fun at Bryson's final 9 holes.

 

But I don't think this is "stupid" or "a waste of bandwidth" for two main reasons:

 

1) It sparks a discussion about what is an honestly interesting question to some here - what percentage of players at a certain skill range (4 hcp is chosen here) could beat a US Open winner's career worst back 9?  Not all the time. Not on average. The operative word here is could. Obee's a pretty trusted source here and he says some could, most would not. That seems reasonable. I think there's probably enough data out there to make a pretty educated guess at the actual percentage that would do it. But lacking that data, I'll take a wild guess - somewhere around 3%. Probably more than 1%. Absolutely less than 20%. Put that way, I would not bet my house that a randomly selected 4 capper would not beat that score, on that course, in those conditions. 

 

2) It's just plain fun. Nobody is seriously claiming a 4 hcp player has any business being in a truly, honestly competitive situation with any PGA Tour player. But this is like fishing stories. Stuff to argue about over beers.

[Forged4ever]

11 hours ago, jwb10 said:

Don't delude yourself, we aren't that good, which is why we are watching and not playing....

How in God's name did we go from breaking 46(which the average 4~ wouldn't break 50) at Torrey to beating Bryson????

 

Beat Bryson????

 

These guys can't beat @isaacbm or @Obee😂😂😂😂

 

Seriously, Danno would scalp ya and take every dime that you're willing to put on the table and David and his bag 'o hybrids would humiliate your delusional *sses😂😂😂

 

Spot on Brotha👊
 

Stay Well🍻

RP

Edited June 22, 2021 by Forged4ever

[Obee]

11 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

The average club 4~ wouldn't break 50 from the Tourney tees as they cannot at Oakmont, from the green tees(US Open tees), with the fairways, rough and greens in tourney condition.. I am not speaking to 4~'s that travelled north from Plus as former elite Ams or Pros, only to those that arrived at 4~ traveling south, and do not Play serious competitive golf, discounting the garden variety club and handicap events, which don't count.

 

If ya add a Pro to their group and they play it down & in, they're definitely gonna be north of 💯, easily. 

 

Cheers🍻

RP

Love ya, Richard.

 

However...
 

Justin Timberlake (currently a 4.3) shot 98 at Torrey as a 6, and 88 at Bethpage as a 4. In U.S. Open Set-ups. He shot 42/46 at Bethpage. He is a quintessential 4. I have played in tournaments with him. 

 

Yes, it can absolutely happen. 🙂
 

and of course, a 4 could never, ever beat Bryson in 1,000,000 tries for 18 holes anywhere.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Obee

[llewol007]

Nope

[Forged4ever]

1 hour ago, Obee said:

Love ya, Richard.

 

However...
 

Justin Timberlake (currently a 4.3) shot 98 at Torrey as a 6, and 88 at Bethpage as a 4. In U.S. Open Set-ups. He shot 42/46 at Bethpage. He is a quintessential 4. I have played in tournaments with him. 

 

Yes, it can absolutely happen. 🙂
 

and of course, a 4 could never, ever beat Bryson in 1,000,000 tries for 18 holes anywhere.

 

 

Hey Brotha, I hope that all's well👊
 

Oh, I absolutely know that it could happen, however I am speaking to the average 4~ and  I would not consider Justin the "average" club 4~ as you know, he has Played many rounds, probably many money games, where he's been "under the gun" with either Big Time Pros in his group, hundreds to thousands in the gallery watching him hit and/or hundreds to thousands of dollars riding on his next putt, so stepping into the box at Torrey, Oakmont, etc., on the same set-up as the Boys Play would not be a shell shock to his system, cuz you know me and and my fixation with the mental side, which most guys who haven't been there done that or been there seen that don't even know about, much less understand just how critical that it is at the competitive level, lolol😉

 

Most of these guys can't even comprehend following a Tour Boy on the tee box or hitting with 500-1000+ peeps standing on either side of em, or making a 6' putt with $1000-2000 of THEIR own money on the table, and then you're gonna throw in a US Open set-up on top of that😝😜🤪???

 

Anyhoo, I hope that you're having a nice season and the back is under control and not screamin at you.

 

All the Best,

Richard 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Forged4ever

[Soloman1]

For heaven's sake, Richard... It 2:30. Go to bed or we're going to tell Madison!

[iBanesto]

Can a 4 handicapper beat Richard Bland? 😂

[cardoustie]

I fully support any 4 capper thread, good fun

[Superbrit]

4 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

I fully support any 4 capper thread, good fun

But why is it always 4, whats wrong with 2 capper's, sounds like discrimination to me

[MattyO1984]

Slightly flummoxed at the almost resounding absolutely not brigade.

 

My view, a 4 handicap could absolutely beat Bryon’s back 9 from Sunday. It is likely, no but every so often we catch lightening in a bottle. Stick a 100 - 4 handicap guys out there. No doubt in my mind at least 1 of them is going round in better than 44. They might play out of their skin to do that but one of them would do it.

[MtlJeff]

3 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

Slightly flummoxed at the almost resounding absolutely not brigade.

 

My view, a 4 handicap could absolutely beat Bryon’s back 9 from Sunday. It is likely, no but every so often we catch lightening in a bottle. Stick a 100 - 4 handicap guys out there. No doubt in my mind at least 1 of them is going round in better than 44. They might play out of their skin to do that but one of them would do it.

 

I think most people understand that. Of course i agree with you, enough people out there someone will do it. You'd have to drive the ball very well, and get a bit lucky with your misses. It's not like EVERY lie you get there is buried. We saw guys miss fairways and get lucky breaks where you could see the ball and make decent contact.

 

If you hit fairways on most of the par 4's, especially the shorter ones where you could hit an 8 or 9 iron in. Plus you didn't butcher the par 5s. Now you're talking about where you could even make a double with some other bogeys and still do it.

 

Heck, if you make a birdie all bets are off. I had a 10 footer on #13 playing from the pro tees. On #16 for us that day, it was playing >200yds and i hit it to ~10 feet also, and again missed the putt. It's not like a 4 couldn't do that

 

I just wouldn't bet on it for an individual guy. The greater likelihood is you'll get 3-4 lies that are horrendous

 

On #11 i missed the green right, and could barely find the ball. I was maybe 15 feet off the green and had zero chance of getting it on the surface. That's how you end up with doubles and triples very easily

Edited June 22, 2021 by MtlJeff

[llewol007]

Different level. Here is a reality check. Next time you are out on your course, play your par 5’s as a par 4 and see how you do. I commend Bryson for his length off the tee but Fairways still mean a lot in a US Open. 

[Forged4ever]

2 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

Slightly flummoxed at the almost resounding absolutely not brigade.

 

My view, a 4 handicap could absolutely beat Bryon’s back 9 from Sunday. It is likely, no but every so often we catch lightening in a bottle. Stick a 100 - 4 handicap guys out there. No doubt in my mind at least 1 of them is going round in better than 44. They might play out of their skin to do that but one of them would do it.

Hey Brotha, how goes it👊
 

As @MtlJeff stated, most know that it can be done, and as I prefaced, while I know that it can be done, I do not believe that the "average club 4~" would get it done. I am not speaking to a sh*ts and giggles round with buds, however say, in a group with you, MtlJeff and @isaacbm, the day/Monday after the tourney concluded, with some money on the table. 
 

I actually would put $1000 down that the average club 4~ wouldn't break 💯 in that scenario with that group. The only reason that I'm so steadfast in my opinion is that I've Played a couple Mondays/days after at Oakmont in private member sponsored events and not only did legit 4~'s not break 💯, 6-8 legit scratch/2~'S didn't break the magic century mark. Now you could say that a 2~ that couldn't break 💯 on Oakmont from the greens(US Open tees) was not legit, and trust me, no one is harder on what constitutes "legit" than myself, however the two guys that I'm thinkin of have Played in USGA events, broken par in USGA events and also executed shots and putts with $1000+ on the line, so they were legit. 
 

Madison just texted me and I had forgotten about a guy that Played with us in a charity even the Monday morning after Angel Cabrera(285, +5) had won at Oakmont in 2007, he was a 4+ and he had an 88. I do remember that he kept the ball in the fairway, the driver in the bag, and basically played for bogies, which he practically played to. I'd say there are more than 1 out of 100, more like 10-15, and I'd bet that the majority of those travelled north to a 4~, being former Competitive Am Pluses and Pros, who are capable of turning back the clock in any given round, versus those who have travelled south and 4~ is the lowest that they have ever been.
 

But just some 4~ from the public links league or a ~4 from some pedestrian club/track or even the average 4~ from my place???

 

NoFrigginWay Brotha😜!!

 

I do agree with ya though that there are guys that could/would do it and I actually believe that it would be more than one and I don't even think that they'd have to "play out of their skin," only keeping the ball in the fairway and below the hole😊

 

Stay Well and have a great summer/season my Friend👊
RP
 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Forged4ever

[SEP1006]

A 4-cap couldn't beat any pro for 9 holes anywhere. These type of post (and we see them all the time) are really ridiculous. The Golf Pro is so much better at the game than an average low capper it's crazy.

[MattyO1984]

56 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

Hey Brotha, how goes it👊
 

As @MtlJeff stated, most know that it can be done, and as I prefaced, while I know that it can be done, I do not believe that the "average club 4~" would get it done. I am not speaking to a sh*ts and giggles round with buds, however say, in a group with you, MtlJeff and @isaacbm, the day/Monday after the tourney concluded, with some money on the table. 
 

I actually would put $1000 down that the average club 4~ wouldn't break 💯 in that scenario with that group. The only reason that I'm so steadfast in my opinion is that I've Played a couple Mondays/days after at Oakmont in private member sponsored events and not only did legit 4~'s not break 💯, 6-8 legit scratch/2~'S didn't break the magic century mark. Now you could say that a 2~ that couldn't break 💯 on Oakmont from the greens(US Open tees) was not legit, and trust me, no one is harder on what constitutes "legit" than myself, however the two guys that I'm thinkin of have Played in USGA events, broken par in USGA events and also executed shots and putts with $1000+ on the line, so they were legit. 
 

Madison just texted me and I had forgotten about a guy that Played with us in a charity even the Monday morning after Angel Cabrera(285, +5) had won at Oakmont in 2007, he was a 4+ and he had an 88. I do remember that he kept the ball in the fairway, the driver in the bag, and basically played for bogies, which he practically played to. I'd say there are more than 1 out of 100, more like 10-15, and I'd bet that the majority of those travelled north to a 4~, being former Competitive Am Pluses and Pros, who are capable of turning back the clock in any given round, versus those who have travelled south and 4~ is the lowest that they have ever been.
 

But just some 4~ from the public links league or a ~4 from some pedestrian club/track or even the average 4~ from my place???

 

NoFrigginWay Brotha😜!!

 

I do agree with ya though that there are guys that could/would do it and I actually believe that it would be more than one and I don't even think that they'd have to "play out of their skin," only keeping the ball in the fairway and below the hole😊

 

Stay Well and have a great summer/season my Friend👊
RP

 

Hey Richard! Totally get where you and @MtlJeff are coming from. Just seemed that there were some that were in the absolutely no way, never going to happen corner. As you have both said, it could happen but totally accept that the average is that it wouldn’t.

 

I suspect that having 43 to aim for could for some be a good thing, whilst for others not so much. With 43 to aim for, those with some streets nous would use the strokes that that gives them rather than blasting driver everywhere…maybe Bryson could pick something up from those types of guy!! 😂