Bubba Watson says golf doesn't celebrate "its great players", bemoans limiting big hitters

[BlackDiamondPar5]

9 hours ago, storm319 said:

Glad I could provide some amusement. 
 

I am not sure how stating the impossible nature of attributing a certain percentage of past distance increases to a single variable was misinterpreted as equipment has made no difference at all, but whatever.

 

 

 

Because you had nothing of value to contribute from the beginning. No data, no studies, Nothing!

 

Recapping... You wrongly attributed the dramatic increase in driving distance that started in the mid 90s to Tiger, Swing Training, Trackman, Fitness, yet the increase started before Tiger appeared and before those other factors were ubiquitous. Then you went on to claim agronomy and other factors, yet never provided data or studies. Then you said the driving data was wrong,samples were wrong etc. Fact is the data is fine, the sample size is huge. It's almost like you've never taken a statistics class in your life. 

 

You've just brought bloviating opinions and extreme criticism to those posting any data or studies that proved your anecdotes wrong. WRX is a friendly community and some of the best members have been engaged in this debate and are the type that listen and learn. But as you can see we won't tolerate baseless criticism and nonsensical anecdotes without data or studies.

 

You need to take your opinions behind the woodshed and shoot them. 

[BHI 99]

It’s takes a LOT more to be considered a GOAT than hitting a big drive. On the course and off the course as far as I’m concerned.

 

Bubba just ain’t one...

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, thorens said:

 

 

IAAF has already nerfed the javelin a long time ago by adjusting some parameters:

 

https://turbojavhellas.com/javelin-redesign/

 

I think that was more about safety with some venues .  Guys were throwing it out of the confines of the event.  It is after all a sharpened spear.  In high school events here they have it on a soccer field all to itself snd have a team of security folks  ( parents etc ) making sure the perimeter isn’t breached by some Walker or onlooker who doesn’t get the danger.  
 

but that could also be applied to golf as far as danger to spectators goes.  It’s a clear danger to have balls flying ( not rolling ) 340 yards plus into crowds.  

Edited July 1, 2021 by bladehunter

[phizzy30]

17 hours ago, BHI 99 said:

Do longer hitters win more tournaments? 

Question should be do longer hitters have a better chance of winning more tournaments.  The answer to that is yes.  Shorter irons into greens increase the chances of closer proximity to the hole which in turn increases the chances of making birdies or better. 

[BHI 99]

Well sure.... but they miss bigger too and still have to putt. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

26 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Question should be do longer hitters have a better chance of winning more tournaments.  The answer to that is yes.  Shorter irons into greens increase the chances of closer proximity to the hole which in turn increases the chances of making birdies or better. 

Interesting question.  I looked at OWGR and the top 10 OWGR have an average drive ranking at 48 overall.  Bryson, Rory, DJ are in the top 10 OWGR and top 10 driving distance.  But also in the top 10 OWGR are Thomas, Cantlay, Morikawa and Reed with driving ranks of 46, 53, 116 and 148 respectively. Now looking at the top 10 drivers there's some are way down on the OWGR list, like Champ, Clark, Gordon, List, Woodland that aren't doing so great compared to their shorter peers.

 

No time to do a full correlation analysis but if some stats guru wanted to do it, it would be interesting to see.  

[bcski]

2 hours ago, thorens said:

 

 

IAAF has already nerfed the javelin a long time ago by adjusting some parameters:

 

https://turbojavhellas.com/javelin-redesign/

 

But that was done primarily due to the flat landings making judging the impact spot hard to identify, and the safety issue of increased distances in venues.

 

Golf has neither of those concerns.  Golf traditionalist are just upset at distance.

[phizzy30]

55 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Interesting question.  I looked at OWGR and the top 10 OWGR have an average drive ranking at 48 overall.  Bryson, Rory, DJ are in the top 10 OWGR and top 10 driving distance.  But also in the top 10 OWGR are Thomas, Cantlay, Morikawa and Reed with driving ranks of 46, 53, 116 and 148 respectively. Now looking at the top 10 drivers there's some are way down on the OWGR list, like Champ, Clark, Gordon, List, Woodland that aren't doing so great compared to their shorter peers.

 

No time to do a full correlation analysis but if some stats guru wanted to do it, it would be interesting to see.  

Fair enough BUT, you also have to consider that JT and Morikawa are such good iron players.  Reed's short game is out of this world which keeps him in the game.  There's other factors involved in who wins and who doesn't, but distance does increase the chances of making birdies or better. 

[BHI 99]

I heard this thing once about driving for dough or something. Maybe it was about carry out pizza. 

 

[smashdn]

On 6/30/2021 at 7:58 AM, storm319 said:

I am not sure why you think I am saying that equipment has not made a difference. I have said it has however I definitely think that many people over-exaggerate that impact. There were many factors that led to the increases we saw on the 90’s but it is impossible to isolate the impact of one single variable with simple averages. 

 

That is not what I am saying.

 

I am asking, why do YOU keep stating that we are saying equipment is "solely responsible" when I can't find anyone here who has said that?  You keep asking for evidence for something we aren't attempting to prove and using that lack of proof as your argument.  The data is not discrete.  The variables at best are intertwined and co-related.  The best we could come up with is a regression analysis for perhaps driver shaft length or swing speed or driver head size or weight.  You can't retroactively measure fitness nor agronomy nor when, who and how much impact trackman had.

 

Just because it is not "solely responsible" does not mean it cannot or did not (directly and indirectly) have the largest impact.  I can't prove it did.  You cannot prove it didn't.  Discrete data does not exist for all the variables.

 

Before you bring up USGA and their study.  Let me remind you of my stance regarding what they can and cannot control.  They are limited to making or changing rules.  Under their purview is how the game is played and with what equipment.  They have evaluated and chosen that in order to enact the change that they feel should be taken to garner the desired effect ("any distances gains are undesirable") they have chosen to look at equipment and what they can do within the equipment rules.

Edited July 1, 2021 by smashdn

[smashdn]

On 6/30/2021 at 8:14 AM, storm319 said:

While you are correct that the USGA has little control over some of the other factors, they have been one of the worst offenders with respect to course conditioning/setup. Ultimately if they want to reverse trends like decreasing fairway turf heights or playing length, they need to lead by example at the events that they host (Erin Hills was a prime example of what should not be encouraged).

 

I agree that they should practice what they preach.  I do not think they are all that interested in reversing decreasing fairway turf heights as that is a battle that would need to be fought on individual fronts all over the country under many varying circumstances and conditions.  They can advise and encourage but it would be near impossible to mandate or coerce.

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

That is not what I am saying.

 

I am asking, why do YOU keep stating that we are saying equipment is "solely responsible" when I can't find anyone here who has said that?  You keep asking for evidence for something we aren't attempting to prove and using that lack of proof as your argument.  The data is not discrete.  The variables at best are intertwined and co-related.  The best we could come up with is a regression analysis for perhaps driver shaft length or swing speed or driver head size or weight.  You can't retroactively measure fitness nor agronomy nor when, who and how much impact trackman had.

 

Just because it is not "solely responsible" does not mean it cannot or did not (directly and indirectly) have the largest impact.  I can't prove it did.  You cannot prove it didn't.

 

Before you bring up USGA and their study.  Let me remind you of my stance regarding what they can and cannot control.  They are limited to making or changing rules.  Under their purview is how the game is played and with what equipment.  They have evaluated and chosen that in order to enact the change that they feel should be taken to garner the desired effect ("any distances gains are undesirable") they have chosen to look at equipment and what they can do within the equipment rules.

 

Nice.

 

Given how “intertwined” the variables are, Phil provides some insight and guidelines.

 

This is from a HoF golfer with over 30 years on tour.

 

And this is not Phil’s thoughts on swing mechanics or feels. He is just quantifying his distance increase attributed to the modern ball. As someone with his level of experience. It may not be scientific or provable, but a great guideline nonetheless 

 

 

In the quote I posted earlier, Phil attributes “most” of his distance gains to the new ball.

 

Most means 50% or more.

 

Phil drove it 270 in his 20s and 300 now. That’s 30 yards.

 

So, apply “most” and let’s work with 15 of those 30 yards coming from the ball.

 

Shaft length is the next variable with mathematically applies no question. Sure, he may swing the graphite a little differently than the old steel, but if anything, I’d think he swings harder given the driver head is so much bigger. 
 

It would be conservative to put a 10 yard distance gain on a full 2” additional of shaft length. But, if we combine gains from the longer shaft and bigger head/sweet spot (enables harder swings with less worry on mid hits), I think 10 yards is a very safe bet.

 

 

So, between the ball and the shaft/head, we have 25 of the 30 yards he gained. 
 

That leaves 5 yards for any fitness, fairway conditions, etc. 

 

I actually think this is fairly accurate accounting of the 30 yard distance gain. 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by bscinstnct

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Here's an informational chart... 

[tiderider]

21 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Nice.

 

Given how “intertwined” the variables are, Phil provides some insight and guidelines.

 

This is from a HoF golfer with over 30 years on tour.

 

And this is not Phil’s thoughts on swing mechanics or feels. He is just quantifying his distance increase attributed to the modern ball. As someone with his level of experience. It may not be scientific or provable, but a great guideline nonetheless 

 

 

In the quote I posted earlier, Phil attributes “most” of his distance gains to the new ball.

 

Most means 50% or more.

 

Phil drove it 270 in his 20s and 300 now. That’s 30 yards.

 

So, apply “most” and let’s work with 15 of those 30 yards coming from the ball.

 

Shaft length is the next variable with mathematically applies no question. Sure, he may swing the graphite a little differently than the old steel, but if anything, I’d think he swings harder given the driver head is so much bigger. 
 

It would be conservative to put a 10 yard distance gain on a full 2” additional of shaft length. But, if we combine gains from the longer shaft and bigger head/sweet spot (enables harder swings with less worry on mid hits), I think 10 yards is a very safe bet.

 

 

So, between the ball and the shaft/head, we have 25 of the 30 yards he gained. 
 

That leaves 5 yards for any fitness, fairway conditions, etc. 

 

I actually think this is fairly accurate accounting of the 30 yard distance gain. 

 

 

 

[BHI 99]

So go back to 300cc heads and 43” shafts. 

 

Big whoop. 

[bscinstnct]

45 minutes ago, tiderider said:

lol, who dat? Look familiar but can’t place it