Bubba Watson says golf doesn't celebrate "its great players", bemoans limiting big hitters

[johnseg]

16 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Here are the dimensions of Yankee Stadium during Mantles time,

 

CF-490!

LC-460!

RC-429

 

Here are the current dimensions 

 

CF-408

LC-399

RC-385

Roger Marris hit 61 Home runs in that old stadium. 
 

This is like if golf courses were 7500 yards in the 1950s and they reduced them to 6500 yards now. Obviously absurd notion and underlines how equally absurd golf equipment is now compare to baseball.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Roger Marris was a left handed batter that also had a RF of 295 which is short for Slow Pitch Softball. Interestingly he did hit half of his HR's at home and half on the road. 1961 was also the year the Yankees set the HR record which lasted into the 90's. Parks definitely don't have the same interesting geometries as in the past with some crazy deep fields accompanying crazy short fields. It is really hard to compare eras. Fields are smaller but pitchers throw harder and you face more fresh pitchers.

 

Your parallel would be equal. MLB has done everything to accentuate the HR. A record that stood for 35 years (240 HR's) has now gone from 257 to 307 in 23 years. Golf let equipment accelerate the distance gains.

 

 

[bscinstnct]

23 minutes ago, johnseg said:

Roger Marris was a left handed batter that also had a RF of 295 which is short for Slow Pitch Softball. Interestingly he did hit half of his HR's at home and half on the road. 1961 was also the year the Yankees set the HR record which lasted into the 90's. Parks definitely don't have the same interesting geometries as in the past with some crazy deep fields accompanying crazy short fields. It is really hard to compare eras. Fields are smaller but pitchers throw harder and you face more fresh pitchers.

 

Your parallel would be equal. MLB has done everything to accentuate the HR. A record that stood for 35 years (240 HR's) has now gone from 257 to 307 in 23 years. Golf let equipment accelerate the distance gains.

 

 

Ya but we can assume that, unless the pitcher was an idiot, Marris and Mantle didn’t see many inside fastballs ; )

 

If your outfielders have good wheels, you’re happy to serve a ball over the plate and let them hit away to dead center or the power alleys.

I remember a teammate of Mantle commenting that if he had played in any other stadium, he would have hit 1000 HRs because he hit hundreds and hundreds of big shots…that were destined to die in “Death Valley”

 

 

And my point was on distance. Clearly the distance limit in MLB has remained the same. 
 

But in golf it has increased from a big drive being 275 to 330. 

[tacklingdummy]

I have no problem with big hitters as long as the courses are setup as a level playing field (as much as possible) for the entire field.  If the shorter hitters have narrower fairways and more hazards in play while the big hitters can take it over all that trouble, then there is a big advantage. Most courses were not designed with the big hitters of today in mind. 

[lefty1978]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Here are the dimensions of Yankee Stadium during Mantles time,

 

CF-490!

LC-460!

RC-429

 

Here are the current dimensions 

 

CF-408

LC-399

RC-385

Roger Marris hit 61 Home runs in that old stadium. 
 

This is like if golf courses were 7500 yards in the 1950s and they reduced them to 6500 yards now. Obviously absurd notion and underlines how equally absurd golf equipment is now compare to baseball.

 

 

 

 

 

That yankee stadium diagram is from 1923, they moved the fences in before the 1938 season. Here is the diagram from 1952, during Mantles time. Fences were still much deeper than today, not as deep as when the Stadium opened in 1923.

 

[PZero]

6 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

Who is getting mad? Can you give some examples of who gets mad at good golf?

 

Have you seen this place when Bryson is playing well?

[bscinstnct]

4 minutes ago, lefty1978 said:

That yankee stadium diagram is from 1923, they moved the fences in before the 1938 season. Here is the diagram from 1952, during Mantles time. Fences were still much deeper than today, not as deep as when the Stadium opened in 1923.

 

 

Ahhh, thank ye ; )

 

Still, 460 is wayyyy deeper than anything today. Most parks are like 400 I would think. 

[dvq9654]

I think he has a point. There is contempt when it comes to distance among certain members of the golfing community. Not just in the governing bodies, but by weekend warriors, as well. They don't view distance as a skill and seem to think it's somehow a mockery of the game. I find this view interesting, as these same people would laud Phil for his short game or others for their putting. I agree swinging the club 140 mph isn't as much an art as having a world class short game, but it is a skill and combining distance with accuracy shouldn't be looked down upon. 

 

I also find it interesting how Jack Nicklaus seems to be one of those against distance. Wasn't he one of the longest hitters of his time and didn't he benefit from that advantage for years? Seems odd to me he discounts that skill set. Realize he also looks through the lens of architecture these days 

 

Lastly, distance generally comes from having a good, efficient swing, right? Why would we denigrate improving one's swing?

 

[Dano golf]

Bubba has a point. It just happens to be on the top of his head!

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Comparing golf to basketball isn't valid. The ball and hoop been the same forever. Skill is what has improved. They aren't redesigning basketball courts. 

 

Golf length increase is significantly equipment related. The costs of redesigning golf courses are carried by many not just the people raking in the prize money. Bubba is off base. 

[Soloman1]

I think most people don't like someone because of the person, not because they can hit a golf ball farther than others.

[Nixhex524]

Bryson has grown on me a little but I think in this case, the way he has handled himself opens the door to some criticism and pushback.  So when all he's talking about is beefing up and driving it a mile, it comes off as self absorbed and bad for the game.  When a Cameron Champ does it, he's just a super human.  Champ goes about his business in a very different way, it should also be celebrated as well as others who handle themselves a little more casually, IMO, but of course winning helps.  It's just the way BDC went about it I think.

 

As far as Nicklaus and Mike Davis, they just sound like grumpy old men... at least Nicklaus accomplished some incredible things, but I can appreciate Bubba's openness to some change in the game... it's inevitable as *eh hemmm, cough* SCIENCE around the game gets better from player conditioning to equipment enhancement.  Every athlete is pushing for an advantage, golf is no different and shouldn't be treated as such.  Plus, it's not like the long hitters are winning every week.  At the end of the day the shortest shots still make all the difference most times.  Anyone complaining about long hitters sounds like a sore loser.

[kasting333]

Let the manufacturers push the limits and let players, clubs and tournament hosts at all skill levels decide.
 

Take the power away from this misguided and biased institutions. The governing bodies are like any other institution and should be eliminated from the game. 

[kasting333]

49 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Comparing golf to basketball isn't valid. The ball and hoop been the same forever. Skill is what has improved. They aren't redesigning basketball courts. 

 

Golf length increase is significantly equipment related. The costs of redesigning golf courses are carried by many not just the people raking in the prize money. Bubba is off base. 

They added the three point line and completely changed the game. 

[Body_Visions]

6 hours ago, NevinW said:

There are separate issues here.  I have no problem with distance gains due to improved athleticism, increased strength, or improved technique.  Those are all things to be praised and admired.
 

 Distance gains due to the golf ball and equipment is another issue.  Why are the distances on the Champions Tour longer now than when they were on the PGA tour?  Are they working out more now?  That has to be equipment related.  
 

 

This is so true I had to see it again.

 

I don’t think anyone calling for a change wants to take length as an advantage away.  The game has always been that way.

 

 

[Body_Visions]

1 hour ago, dvq9654 said:

I think he has a point. There is contempt when it comes to distance among certain members of the golfing community. Not just in the governing bodies, but by weekend warriors, as well. They don't view distance as a skill and seem to think it's somehow a mockery of the game. I find this view interesting, as these same people would laud Phil for his short game or others for their putting. I agree swinging the club 140 mph isn't as much an art as having a world class short game, but it is a skill and combining distance with accuracy shouldn't be looked down upon. 

 

I also find it interesting how Jack Nicklaus seems to be one of those against distance. Wasn't he one of the longest hitters of his time and didn't he benefit from that advantage for years? Seems odd to me he discounts that skill set. Realize he also looks through the lens of architecture these days 

 

Lastly, distance generally comes from having a good, efficient swing, right? Why would we denigrate improving one's swing?

 

 

 

The same Nicklaus that was calling for something to be done when he was the longest hitter? 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Body_Visions

[Arn]

Because it’s mostly technology driven. No one is swinging that hard at an old small driver head, or an old fashion ball that actually spins.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

32 minutes ago, kasting333 said:

They added the three point line and completely changed the game. 

The 3 pt line was added by the overlords of the game to make it more exciting. It also didn't require millions of dollars of modifications. 

 

The distance in golf was driven by equipment manufacturers and overlords that were asleep at the switch. It has cost millions at each and every golf course where pros play and no doubt has made its way to many other courses. A cost borne by most of us one way or another. 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Comparing golf to basketball isn't valid. The ball and hoop been the same forever. Skill is what has improved. They aren't redesigning basketball courts. 

 

Golf length increase is significantly equipment related. The costs of redesigning golf courses are carried by many not just the people raking in the prize money. Bubba is off base. 

Ya, the biggest sports NFL, Soccer, MLB, NBA, equipment basically unchanged. 
 

The fields of play from 100 years ago are identical. 
 

Any changes in how the games are played are a result of talent level and rules changes.

 

Golf? Obviously not the case.

 

When Bobby Jones said of Jack, 

 

“He plays a game with which I am not familiar,'

 

Well, yeah, but it had nothing to do with Jack being Superman. It was the tech advances. And they kept rolling along and now they play a game Jack isn’t familiar with. Because of the tech. 

 

 

Good or bad, that’s just the truth. 

 

 

 

[kasting333]

18 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

The 3 pt line was added by the overlords of the game to make it more exciting. It also didn't require millions of dollars of modifications. 

 

The distance in golf was driven by equipment manufacturers and overlords that were asleep at the switch. It has cost millions at each and every golf course where pros play and no doubt has made its way to many other courses. A cost borne by most of us one way or another. 

All I was refuting is that basketball did redesign its court and changed the game drastically by doing so. Calling it more exciting is debatable. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by kasting333

[sailfishchris]

Who are these "Great Players" not being celebrated? Bubba should......play golf.

 

[Ironman_32]

Funny, with the title I actually thought Bubba was talking about the opposite, as in short hitters who play great but aren't celebrated. 

 

I think distance has always been the thing, even with Tiger, most people overlook the short game as stated above. 

 

I also think that Bryson is used as the poster boy for distance now (he didn't even hit the longest drive at the US Open), and the powers that be may feel better about going after Bryson then they would have Tiger. 

 

I also also think, older players are somewhat grumpy, one of those "I could have done that with that technology". Its probably golf and NASCAR/F1 racing where athletes of the past are basically playing a different game than the current edition, mainly due to technology. 

[smashdn]

14 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

Bryson has grown on me a little but I think in this case, the way he has handled himself opens the door to some criticism and pushback.  So when all he's talking about is beefing up and driving it a mile, it comes off as self absorbed and bad for the game.  When a Cameron Champ does it, he's just a super human. 

Do Phil next.  Bombs and seeds.

[Nixhex524]

Just now, smashdn said:

Do Phil next.  Bombs and seeds.

Phil has already given PLENTY to this game.  He's earned his new character.

[smashdn]

How should we feel about it though?  It cool that a 50 year old guy is averaging 303.5 driving distance?  Does he fall into the "pumping iron and getting bigger" camp or the "optimized the equipment" camp?

 

 

(For grins, Phil averaged 293.9 for the entire 2001 season when he was 30-31.)

Edited June 23, 2021 by smashdn

[munichop]

Phil may be a good example on this subject. Because he did transform his body so he could maintain his club head speed. But just by maintaining his speed he gained distance with the newer tech which includes the track man devices. He also switched to the longest allowed driver length for the PGA.

In my personal case I have not transformed my body unless you count my “covid” belly yet gained 10 to 15 yards with my driver by changing shafts. 

[Nixhex524]

2 minutes ago, smashdn said:

How should we feel about it though?  It cool that a 50 year old guy is averaging 303.5 driving distance?  Does he fall into the "pumping iron and getting bigger" camp or the "optimized the equipment" camp?

I think it's great for Phil.  You can not ignore that he has worked on his body intensely for the last few years.  He isn't accomplishing what he is distance-wise on just pure equipment tech.  The guy has been working hard in the gym and on swing speed.  Maybe this is what Bubba means....  guys are working hard to stretch the limits and people continue to blame equipment, never validating the hard work these guys put in.  Some have natural ability to hit it far, some have to work on their body to get there.  Either way, what does it matter if they are hitting it this far and it's all over the planet?  I still see it as a disadvantage at times.  

 

Look at Spieth.  The guy was playing lights out golf for years.  Started chasing swing speed and completely lost himself.  The guy was not the longest hitter and was still dominating on tour because of his ability regardless of who was out driving him by 50 yards.  

 

SG putting.  Leaders in that category are not long hitters, and damn, I mean, most use a blade putter.  A BLADE!!!  Why not take advantage of a mallet since the tech is there??  Or why not some GI irons....  

 

Not to say tech hasn't advanced the game, but everyone getting wrapped up and angry over how far these guys are hitting it is a bit overblown IMO.  It's not really proving to be a huge advantage week to week.  AND, all of them can take advantage of better equipment, it's not limited.

[smashdn]

I don't care if it is good for him or not.  I want to know how I am supposed to perceive him.  This thread is about perceptions.  Bubba thinks we hate long drivers.

 

Should I hate Wilco?  If not Wilco, why hate Bryson?  If I hate Bryson, shouldn't I hate Phil?

 

Haters gonna hate.  I just need to know where to splash the haterade about.

Edited June 23, 2021 by smashdn
Punctuation, it's free. I should use it.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

1 hour ago, Nixhex524 said:

I think it's great for Phil.  You can not ignore that he has worked on his body intensely for the last few years.  He isn't accomplishing what he is distance-wise on just pure equipment tech.  The guy has been working hard in the gym and on swing speed.  Maybe this is what Bubba means....  guys are working hard to stretch the limits and people continue to blame equipment, never validating the hard work these guys put in.  Some have natural ability to hit it far, some have to work on their body to get there.  Either way, what does it matter if they are hitting it this far and it's all over the planet?  I still see it as a disadvantage at times.  

 

Look at Spieth.  The guy was playing lights out golf for years.  Started chasing swing speed and completely lost himself.  The guy was not the longest hitter and was still dominating on tour because of his ability regardless of who was out driving him by 50 yards.  

 

SG putting.  Leaders in that category are not long hitters, and damn, I mean, most use a blade putter.  A BLADE!!!  Why not take advantage of a mallet since the tech is there??  Or why not some GI irons....  

 

Not to say tech hasn't advanced the game, but everyone getting wrapped up and angry over how far these guys are hitting it is a bit overblown IMO.  It's not really proving to be a huge advantage week to week.  AND, all of them can take advantage of better equipment, it's not limited.

I personally don't think anyone has a problem with any specific golfer and their distance.  What I and many others bemoan is what the increased distance is doing to golf courses and the expense of expanding and maintaining them or obsoleting golf courses. 

 

I strongly believe it's mostly equipment related.  Look at what happened from about ~1995- 2003 when avg tour driving distance increased by more than 20 yards in 8 years.  Whereas the 14 years previous to 1995 only increased by ~5 yards and the 14 years after after 2004 has only increased 8 yards.  Yes I know it's going up again, but what caused that big boost in the 1990's?

 

I'd be interested in Bubba's and WRX members theories.

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by BlackDiamondPar5

[munichop]

Metal drivers, solid golf balls

[johnseg]

42 minutes ago, munichop said:

Metal drivers, solid golf balls

I really think the ball made a bigger impact than the driver. Guys found out that you could swing as hard as you wanted at the new solid ball.