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Bubba Watson says golf doesn't celebrate "its great players", bemoans limiting big hitters


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1 hour ago, storm319 said:


Again, that is your subjective opinion and others may not share that opinion.

Sure. Nobody is trying to speak in absolutes. But you can scour the forums here and easily see that the opinion isn’t only mine.  It could easily be 50/50 split sure.  But that validates it as much as the opposite. 
 

how about what I said before that.  That most of the Bryson / Brooks hate is due to the people not the distance ?  

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39 minutes ago, oughtaquit said:

Interesting- maybe this explains why I feel so much shorter now compared to the people I play with?  I never could swing fast but I could hit it pretty straight; now others with more speed no longer have to hold back. 

Bingo.  
 

several times  in the last year I’ve had it pointed out by others that my fairways hit stat was obscenely good.  Too good in fact to be playing what anyone would call aggressive off the tee.  I pointed out that I had two different driver swings.  Or thoughts.  So put it to the test on trackman and saw 8 mph difference in speed on average.  More after I started working toward using the speed , it got faster.  Spent so  long learning to hit it straight , I forgot about far.  Now I’m working on the balance of the two.  
 

the equipment today absolutely allows for harder swings.  

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14 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

But the data doesn't support that. Tiger was not the leading driver on tour 

https://www.pga.com/archive/news/pga-tour/how-driving-distance-has-changed-over-past-40-years-pga-tour

 

 

But distance off the tee statistics may not tell the entire picture. Tiger used a 3-wood or long irons off the tee a lot, so his driver likely was not representative of how far he really hit the ball. 

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22 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Sure. Nobody is trying to speak in absolutes. But you can scour the forums here and easily see that the opinion isn’t only mine.  It could easily be 50/50 split sure.  But that validates it as much as the opposite. 
 

how about what I said before that.  That most of the Bryson / Brooks hate is due to the people not the distance ?  


First, this forum hardly represents the typical PGA Tour viewer. Also, I think your 50/50 estimation is a bit generous the rollback supporters just seem to be more outspoken. 
 

As far as Bryson hate, I agree that it is mostly optics and the fact that he is in the golf media spotlight at the moment. He really isn’t doing anything that isn’t being matched by others, but he did arguably have the most drastic single offseason transformation than we have probably ever seen on tour and it has worked for him so far. I don’t really understand the Brooks comment as discussion on him was fairly quite over the past year until the infamous eye roll which if anything was good for viewership this year (Americans love drama).

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15 minutes ago, storm319 said:


First, this forum hardly represents the typical PGA Tour viewer. Also, I think your 50/50 estimation is a bit generous the rollback supporters just seem to be more outspoken. 
 

As far as Bryson hate, I agree that it is mostly optics and the fact that he is in the golf media spotlight at the moment. He really isn’t doing anything that isn’t being matched by others, but he did arguably have the most drastic single offseason transformation than we have probably ever seen on tour and it has worked for him so far. I don’t really understand the Brooks comment as discussion on him was fairly quite over the past year until the infamous eye roll which if anything was good for viewership this year (Americans love drama).

Let’s full stop here , and rewind. Please. 
 

maybe I came in late , but I haven’t read or said anything about a rollback.  How’d we Change the subject to that ? I thought it was about folks not celebrating physical advances that lead to accomplishment in golf ????

 

to answer that I’d say that we do.  But. And it’s a huge but.  It’s rare , and just doesn’t happen much. The bar is set so high , that were underwhelmed by most.  Whne the tiger 4.0 guy comes along.  We will celebrate him.  Until then , we cheer when we see something good.  

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1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

 

We celebrate winners.  Each week there is one winner and roughly 150 losers.

We celebrate when guys shoot 59, or when they make an Ace...  Doesnt mean they win the tournament that week....  By your logic, you should have no worries about how to perceive ANY of the other 149 guys then, so as long as Bryson doesn't win, you wont have to worry about how to perceive him.  That's good news at least.

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38 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Bingo.  
 

several times  in the last year I’ve had it pointed out by others that my fairways hit stat was obscenely good.  Too good in fact to be playing what anyone would call aggressive off the tee.  I pointed out that I had two different driver swings.  Or thoughts.  So put it to the test on trackman and saw 8 mph difference in speed on average.  More after I started working toward using the speed , it got faster.  Spent so  long learning to hit it straight , I forgot about far.  Now I’m working on the balance of the two.  
 

the equipment today absolutely allows for harder swings.  

 

Perhaps we've been thinking about the distance debate the wrong way.  There has been a tremendous focus on the clubs and the distance balls will go, but maybe the solution is deceptively simple:

 

Require golf balls under a standard set of conditions have a MINIMUM spin/revolutions per minute. 

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33 minutes ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

But distance off the tee statistics may not tell the entire picture. Tiger used a 3-wood or long irons off the tee a lot, so his driver likely was not representative of how far he really hit the ball. 


Those measured holes that are almost always driver and in many cases setup for the guys to swing away so they are more than likely inflated vs understated. 
 

From the article:

"The average number of yards per measured drive. These drives are measured on two holes per round. Care is taken to select two holes which face in opposite directions to counteract the effect of wind. Drives are measured to the point at which they come to rest regardless of whether they are in the fairway or not."

 

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On 6/22/2021 at 12:44 PM, johnseg said:

To me the one item that isn't given enough credence in the distance wars is Trackman. Players now understand how to optimize everything for distance. There have been improvements in many areas but not really in the last 10 years or so. Rory is at 318.7 this year and in 2010 he was 300.0 and for Phil he is 303.5 and 299.1. I really don't believe that it is equipment that much in that time frame. I really think it is using science to improve. Spin rate, launch angle, clubhead speed, ball speed, Angle of Attack etc. has given these guys a ton of distance and control.

100% no doubt.  Give me a combo , trackman outside and 30 minutes and I’ll figure out how to hit it , or say that it doesn’t work for me.  That process used to take weeks of on course trial and error.  

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19 minutes ago, Nixhex524 said:

We celebrate when guys shoot 59, or when they make an Ace...  Doesnt mean they win the tournament that week....  By your logic, you should have no worries about how to perceive ANY of the other 149 guys then, so as long as Bryson doesn't win, you wont have to worry about how to perceive him.  That's good news at least.

 

To Bubba's point then, why not celebrate distance?  Or why celebrate distance for some and not others?

 

(That wasn't my logic, that was only an observation.  You'd find who and what I celebrate to be very boring.)

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I pointed out that I had two different driver swings.  

 

Same here.  I choke down about 1/2" and swing smooth and, as I feel it, noticeably slower.  Ball flight is lower and straighter.  

Normal swing is longer feeling and faster.  Produces much higher flight but also could be a slight fade or push slice if I am not careful. Thus the desire to have that "fairway finder" swing when you need it.

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26 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

Require golf balls under a standard set of conditions have a MINIMUM spin/revolutions per minute. 

 

It was bandied about.  

 

I think this is important.  Tour guys love spin.  They love it with their wedges and irons (so long as it is consistent spin).  Otherwise they could grab a sleeve a of rock flights and not have to worry about driver sidespin issues.  But they want that spin too as that is how they can control the ball into the green.

 

What the proV did was give them the best of both worlds.  Somehow (magic of science or pixie dust, whatever) they created a ball that was straighter off the tee but with a urethane cover that still spun on wedge and iron shots.  They got the layers thing figured out I suppose too.  No grooves on a modern driver so the cover isn't getting "activated" so less spin.

 

So to your point, I would think it would be very important to determine how you measured the spin that you were testing for conformance.

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15 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

To Bubba's point then, why not celebrate distance?  Or why celebrate distance for some and not others?

 

(That wasn't my logic, that was only an observation.  You'd find who and what I celebrate to be very boring.)

 

This is what I am saying, I think he is right.  I think Bryson should get some credit instead of hate.... and to the second question, we already know the answer.  Because Bryson is a polarizing figure.  DASSIT.

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40 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

Perhaps we've been thinking about the distance debate the wrong way.  There has been a tremendous focus on the clubs and the distance balls will go, but maybe the solution is deceptively simple:

 

Require golf balls under a standard set of conditions have a MINIMUM spin/revolutions per minute. 


That would work if stage relationship between spin and speed were linear, but it isn’t. An ODS for spin with one set of swing variables would just shift the optimal launch condition target and players/OEMs would adapt effectively making the regulation worthless. Multiple sets of test conditions would only go so far to close gaps and would add a lot of overhead to the conformance testing process. 

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Let’s full stop here , and rewind. Please. 
 

maybe I came in late , but I haven’t read or said anything about a rollback.  How’d we Change the subject to that ? I thought it was about folks not celebrating physical advances that lead to accomplishment in golf ????

 

to answer that I’d say that we do.  But. And it’s a huge but.  It’s rare , and just doesn’t happen much. The bar is set so high , that were underwhelmed by most.  Whne the tiger 4.0 guy comes along.  We will celebrate him.  Until then , we cheer when we see something good.  


Bubba’s comments seemed to be more focused on the detractors not simply a lack of praise for bombing drives. Anecdotally there seems to be a strong correlation between these detractors and strongly favoring equipment rollbacks hence the reference.

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On 6/22/2021 at 10:50 AM, Soloman1 said:

 

Who is getting mad? Can you give some examples of who gets mad at good golf?

The people who redesigned the golf course every time someone puts it over their bunkers. 
 

I’m sure this has been replied to five times, sorry for being lazy. I blame the Internet

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Also to bubbas point,We should not celebrate people “having the lowest score in history”,It’s kind of useless when you try to compare arbitrary numbers like that with the changing conditions and equipment.  
 

Score against the field is the only thing  that matters imo,because it’s the only thing that compares you to all the other people dealing with the same conditions. 
 

400 yard Hole in ones please

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3 hours ago, storm319 said:


Those measured holes that are almost always driver and in many cases setup for the guys to swing away so they are more than likely inflated vs understated. 
 

From the article:

"The average number of yards per measured drive. These drives are measured on two holes per round. Care is taken to select two holes which face in opposite directions to counteract the effect of wind. Drives are measured to the point at which they come to rest regardless of whether they are in the fairway or not."

 

 

It is likely that overwhelming majority used drivers off those two holes, but it is no guarantee and speculation that drivers were used by every player unless stated. Also, just because those two holes measured distance, it may not have been known to players that the distance was being measured, so it is just speculation that they would go after it. I don't think players are very concerned with their distance stats on two measured holes. They are more concerned with playing well on those two measured holes and winning a tournament. 

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On 6/22/2021 at 2:10 PM, lefty1978 said:

That yankee stadium diagram is from 1923, they moved the fences in before the 1938 season. Here is the diagram from 1952, during Mantles time. Fences were still much deeper than today, not as deep as when the Stadium opened in 1923.

 

yankeestadium1952.PNG

And the chart on this page shows when each change was made.

The M&M boys were playing with 302 down the left field line and 296 to right.  It did get deeper quickly. 

 

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/stadium/yankee_stadium.shtml

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3 hours ago, storm319 said:


Bubba’s comments seemed to be more focused on the detractors not simply a lack of praise for bombing drives. Anecdotally there seems to be a strong correlation between these detractors and strongly favoring equipment rollbacks hence the reference.

Now put on your thick skin.  I mean this mostly in humor.  But with any funny bit , there’s some truth   . 
 

isn’t that  anecdotal part to paraphrase you from earlier ....“like your opinion man “. ?? 
 

I don’t know how or why we call it a rollback? I don’t think anybody is sayin go back to steel shafts snd wooden heads.    
 

why don’t we call it change ?   And go against the pseudo-modern thinkers who are afraid of change.  I mean that’s what it is right ?  A bunch of guys who want it to stay as is , afraid to see it change.  Be fluid , back and forth looking for a sweet spot.  
 

 

Think on that.  Again. I’m mainly poking fun at the whole argument.  But .....

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Bubba is wrong.

 

Golf galleries at every tournament do applaud long drives they witness.

 

Should the PGA Tour hold public celebrations and ticker tape parades for the player who hit the longest drive on the 4th hole of the third round of the Honda Classic?

 

Does Bubba think we should have loud music and wild, raucous celebrations every time someone hits a 300+ yard drive?

 

Golf is not a Long Drive Contest. A Long Drive Contest is a long drive contest.

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On 6/21/2021 at 6:56 PM, LimaSierra said:

https://www.skysports.com/golf/us-open/news/14640/12336172

 

A few quotes

 

"The sad part for me is we celebrate every sport in the world," said dual Masters champion Watson. "We celebrate accomplishments. We celebrate a guy scoring 50 points in the NBA. They are not saying quit shooting three-pointers.

 

"We're the only sport not celebrating accomplishments of being a guy working out in the gym that can hit the ball miles. We're mad at that guy. I don't know why, but we are. I'm not, but some people are - golf course designers.

 

I think Bubba has a point here. It does seem weird that all other sports embrace their athletes becoming bigger and stronger. Why doesn't golf?

Because it ties in with PED use.  Most guys on tour do not use steroids.  My buddy who's on the Mackenzie Tour says hgh is the "it" thing right now since it allows them to recover faster from workouts and the grind of travel and hitting balls many hours on a daily basis.  Any drug or hormone use in pro golf is looked upon with disdain because it's supposed to be a holier than thou sport where as football and hockey are more violent and what not.  As a fan I'm a proponent of guys getting big, strong and long for golf.  Don't care if they feel the need to use PEDs to do so.  The entire point pro sports is to become the best player.  That means they will go to any lengths do so. 

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1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

 

Bubba is wrong.

 

Golf galleries at every tournament do applaud long drives they witness.

 

Should the PGA Tour hold public celebrations and ticker tape parades for the player who hit the longest drive on the 4th hole of the third round of the Honda Classic?

 

Does Bubba think we should have loud music and wild, raucous celebrations every time someone hits a 300+ yard drive?

 

Golf is not a Long Drive Contest. A Long Drive Contest is a long drive contest.


I think you are missing his point. His comments are more focused on the detractors advocating for increased difficulty anytime a younger generation player accomplishes an impressive feat (focus seems to be on big drives and low scores relative to par). 
 

“But we don't celebrate when a guy makes eight birdies or a guy bombs it 400 yards. I don't understand how we're not celebrating. We're trying to make golf courses bigger, harder, dumber, however you want to word it, but we're not celebrating our great players.”

 

“We're the only sport not celebrating accomplishments of being a guy working out in the gym that can hit the ball miles. We're mad at that guy. I don't know why, but we are. I'm not, but some people are - golf course designers.“

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2 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Because it ties in with PED use.  Most guys on tour do not use steroids.  My buddy who's on the Mackenzie Tour says hgh is the "it" thing right now since it allows them to recover faster from workouts and the grind of travel and hitting balls many hours on a daily basis.  Any drug or hormone use in pro golf is looked upon with disdain because it's supposed to be a holier than thou sport where as football and hockey are more violent and what not.  As a fan I'm a proponent of guys getting big, strong and long for golf.  Don't care if they feel the need to use PEDs to do so.  The entire point pro sports is to become the best player.  That means they will go to any lengths do so. 

Disagree entirely on that.  In my opinion any amount of doping is a sin against your talent/gift.  Even if using lances reasoning which was “ everyone else is doing it , I have no choice “.    Ruling bodies should have 1 strike and banned policies in my opinion.  

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7 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Disagree entirely on that.  In my opinion any amount of doping is a sin against your talent/gift.  Even if using lances reasoning which was “ everyone else is doing it , I have no choice “.    Ruling bodies should have 1 strike and banned policies in my opinion.  

We can agree to disagree.  For me, I'd rather see everyone in pro sports playing on a level playing field.  What a lot of fans don't realize is that the time these guys and gals(pro sports) have in order to maximize their income is very limited.  If that means that they feel the need to use PEDs in order to keep their jobs so to speak, then so be it.  For some, it's about feeding their families because they don't have the education or opportunities to better their lives.  For others, it's about ego, fame, attention, etc.   

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8 hours ago, Tgstan said:

This thread has a guy saying he thinks PEDs should be a-ok for pro sports lmao

I train pro athletes for a living.  Walk a mile in their shoes then tell me you feel the same way.  A lot of these guys don't use PEDs just for craps and giggles.  They do it because it could mean the difference between putting food on the table or living in poverty.  Many of them didn't grow up with mommy and daddy supporting them but rather had to struggle their entire lives to make it to the pro level. 

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