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I’ve worked hard to improve my swing through lessons, and my path into the ball is currently neutral if not 1-2* from the inside. My wedges up through my longest fairway wood produce a very straight flight most of the time. 
 

My path is the same with the driver but I tend to leave the face 2-4* open. The ball is hit solidly but goes way offline. 
 

My pro has me working on turning the face closed in transition. When this works, it works very well, but at other times my body stops turning on the way through and I get a low smother hook instead of the high draw I’m looking for. 
 

Here’s my question: should

I accept having to make a specific compensation in my driver swing to hit it straight, or is this something that is better solved with driver fitting? 

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now that’s just crazy talk…

Sounds like a mechanical issue.  No driver is going to fix an extremely open face. 

One would certainly hope but not all proper fittings are as proper as they should be.   

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Sounds like a mechanical issue.  No driver is going to fix an extremely open face. 

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@me05501 - option B ---- You could always try a Ping G425 SFT. I bet that driver will straighten you out.  I had the same issue as you and the driver has always been my weak spot.  Since putting the G425 SFT into my bag the driver is no longer my weak spot.  I am able to now keep the ball in play on my not so good swings and hitting more fairways than ever before.  That said, when I first experimented with the G425 SFT via Global Golf's U-try program (allows you to trial the club for 2 weeks for $25) the club was overly corrective and I went from missing to the right to missing everything to the left. So, in order to correct the over-correction I dropped the loft down 1.5* from 10.5* to 9* which opens up the face and then changed out the stock heel 23g weight for a 17g weight and then had 7g of hotmelt added to a neutral spot and she was money.  @J13- from this site performed the hotmelt work and does great work if you ever decide to go this route.      

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Agree with tomg, try to close the face more at address and don't get too focused on the hard wrist turn/face close. 

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3 hours ago, me05501 said:

My pro has me working on turning the face closed in transition. When this works, it works very well, but at other times my body stops turning on the way through and I get a low smother hook instead of the high draw I’m looking for.

 

From my personal experience, these two flaws lead to leftish errors...

 

  1. Sometimes your hands-arms get out ahead of your hip turn on your downswing. (A couple of years ago, Jordan Spieth missed cuts on the PGA Tour when he started doing this.)
  2. An incomplete backswing on shots where you overdo swinging smoothly. If you only rotate back 60 degrees but rotate through 80 degrees, you'll close the clubface and get a leftish liner.

 

Do your low left drives tend to occur on the back nine? If so, fatigue may be a factor. To avoid the problem, swing on form and don't overswing or try to kill the ball.

Edited by ChipNRun
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11 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Sounds like a mechanical issue.  No driver is going to fix an extremely open face. 

 

I'd guess it's more likely a setup issue.  Certainly could be a swing issue as well since many do have slightly different swings for the driver than the other clubs (e.g. trying to get a positive AoA).   But for some, the face angle of the head can potentially have a big influence on the face-to-path.  So can some combinations of playing length and head weight (swing weight or MOI).

 

11 hours ago, me05501 said:

My path is the same with the driver but I tend to leave the face 2-4* open. The ball is hit solidly but goes way offline.

 

What driver model, loft and if it's adjustable what are the settings you're using?

 

Also a simple test to try,  choke up 1" and see if that helps any.

 

 

11 hours ago, me05501 said:

Here’s my question: should

I accept having to make a specific compensation in my driver swing to hit it straight, or is this something that is better solved with driver fitting? 

 

That's a better question for the instruction forum.  I'm not a pro  but other than some setup changes, I personally don't think the driver swing should be any different.   The question of the driver's fit being an issue or not is a bit more complex.  The short answer is that only going through the process (succesfully) will answer that question.  The link below can help you figure that out yourself to a large extent.

 

But there is another possibility you may not be considering.   Just because your driver swing feels the same as the other clubs doesn't mean it is.   Feel is not always real when it comes to the golf swing.  it's very possible that your driver swing has diverged from your swing with the other clubs without you knowing it.  Usually from the fact that the setup can be quite different.  Just the fact that the ball is teed up much higher than any other club is enough on it's own.

 

But here is the link that might help you answer the question about how good a fit your current driver might be.

 

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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11 hours ago, me05501 said:

I’ve worked hard to improve my swing through lessons, and my path into the ball is currently neutral if not 1-2* from the inside. My wedges up through my longest fairway wood produce a very straight flight most of the time. 
 

My path is the same with the driver but I tend to leave the face 2-4* open. The ball is hit solidly but goes way offline. 
 

My pro has me working on turning the face closed in transition. When this works, it works very well, but at other times my body stops turning on the way through and I get a low smother hook instead of the high draw I’m looking for. 
 

Here’s my question: should

I accept having to make a specific compensation in my driver swing to hit it straight, or is this something that is better solved with driver fitting? 

Trying to manipulate the face when the club is going 100+ mph doesn't seem like a recipe for success.  Either a setup issue or the driver and/or shaft isn't right for you.

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Thanks all. 

 

I do use impact stickers on the range to test the quality of my contact. That's super helpful. 

 

I agree that setup is an issue and that's another thing my pro and I have been working on. For me, having the ball a little further back in my stance seems to help my brain with the mechanics. When I have the ball too far forward (off the left heel as often recommended) I can either set up with my shoulders open, or feel like I need to hold the face open til impact, and both of those make my left-to-right issue worse. I basically need to set up to the ball just like a fairway wood but on a higher tee. That seems to work best for me. 

 

I asked about fitting because the Trackman stats I get show the face is only a few degrees open. I figure that's what modern drivers are meant to help with. 

 

My swing speed is 93-95 and my current go-to shaft is a HZRDUS RDX Blue in 5.5 60g. I have two different Callaway heads: a 10.5 Epic Max and a 9 Big Bertha '21. I understand how the adjustments of the hosel can open or close the face. Not 100% sure I'm optimized there. Probably a fitting is in order. 

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11 minutes ago, me05501 said:

I understand how the adjustments of the hosel can open or close the face. Not 100% sure I'm optimized there. Probably a fitting is in order. 

 

A simple test can help with that next time you're on the LM (or just watch the ball flight).  Change the setting to the max loft and hit a few balls, then change to the lowest loft and hit a few balls.   Then use the difference in shot shape tendencies (and face-to-path numbers if on the LM) to determine how the face angle change effects things for you or if the more closed face angle helps with the problem or not.

 

11 minutes ago, me05501 said:

I do use impact stickers on the range to test the quality of my contact. That's super helpful. 

 

As I understand it, with TM, the impact location can certainly effect the face numbers since you're getting the face angle at the impact point not at the center of the face.  So toe side misses can make it seem like the face is more open than it really is.

 

 

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I'd guess it's more likely a setup issue.  Certainly could be a swing issue as well since many do have slightly different swings for the driver than the other clubs (e.g. trying to get a positive AoA).   But for some, the face angle of the head can potentially have a big influence on the face-to-path.  So can some combinations of playing length and head weight (swing weight or MOI).

 

 

What driver model, loft and if it's adjustable what are the settings you're using?

 

Also a simple test to try,  choke up 1" and see if that helps any.

 

 

 

That's a better question for the instruction forum.  I'm not a pro  but other than some setup changes, I personally don't think the driver swing should be any different.   The question of the driver's fit being an issue or not is a bit more complex.  The short answer is that only going through the process (succesfully) will answer that question.  The link below can help you figure that out yourself to a large extent.

 

But there is another possibility you may not be considering.   Just because your driver swing feels the same as the other clubs doesn't mean it is.   Feel is not always real when it comes to the golf swing.  it's very possible that your driver swing has diverged from your swing with the other clubs without you knowing it.  Usually from the fact that the setup can be quite different.  Just the fact that the ball is teed up much higher than any other club is enough on it's own.

 

But here is the link that might help you answer the question about how good a fit your current driver might be.

 

 

Thanks @Stuart_G.  I didn't realize that playing length and head weight could be such large factors in face angle. 

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4 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Thanks @Stuart_G.  I didn't realize that playing length and head weight could be such large factors in face angle. 

 

Really it's the swing weight/MOI since it can (potentially) effect the release timing and/or the sequencing between the different body parts.  It's really the swing that is effected but the equipment can be a source that influences the swing based on the feels that come from it.  Again some people can be effected more than others.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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I really appreciate all the ideas. I just went to have a brief hit at the range to try to make sure I'm not over-doing anything. 

 

Seeing this video of a Rory driver swing helped me get more confident with my ball position. During my last few range sessions I've been putting the ball in a similar place relative to my setup and that's where I seem to get the most solid/square contact.

 

Literally for years and years my brain has worked against me, telling me to move the ball forward, either thinking it would lead to more distance or assuming it would allow the face more time to close. This just isn't the case with my swing and I need to remind myself constantly. I might not be able to swing like Rory but setting up correctly should be easy. 

 

With this sort of ball position, the "face closing" move I'm making is really subtle. It's more of a "don't let the face open" move. I don't feel like I'm doing much...just being a little more conscious of face orientation at the top. 

 

974513882_ScreenShot2021-06-23at10_40_11AM.png.3f4dacf36dd216cdd7b4bf1a1dbf2ad0.png

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You are having some success, just a little Inconsistent. You have options

Could adjust if , the driver has these features. Could use some lead tape , 

Both could assist in amount of club head closure rate  at impact.

A different profile shaft, but can be pricey.

Or, giving a little more conscious effort in 

your set up and swing mechanics.

The fact that you have seen success and are working on fixing it, maybe, just stay the course .  Patience with a driver swing adjustment take a little time. No doubt you are on the right path.

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3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

But here is the link that might help you answer the question about how good a fit your current driver might be.

 

 

 

Thanks! I've read the info in that thread before. I wonder, though, if the info in the first post is still accurate regarding the ideal contact spot being a bit higher and outside the middle of the clubface? 

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If you're a brave sort take a swing video and post it in the instruction forum. Personally I'm not nearly that brave - I'm afraid of what I'd see. :classic_laugh:

 

You've got a lot of info here. I'll just add a couple of things. (You're welcome :classic_biggrin:)

 

In MY case the hard quick snap hook comes from a lack of weight shift. Weigh back = all upper body = snap hook.

 

My (old)block right comes from the opposite. Too much weight forward and club lags behind with, of course, an open face.

 

IF you're happy with your contact, try a "simple" fix and just strengthen your grip a tad. Nothing major, just a slight turn of both hands. All else being equal that slightly open face at impact will then be square.

 

IMO, this is much simpler to do than try to "manipulate" the face to square. You should NOT, if you have a decent swing, feel like you have to manipulate anything.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Thanks! I've read the info in that thread before. I wonder, though, if the info in the first post is still accurate regarding the ideal contact spot being a bit higher and outside the middle of the clubface? 

 

It's not a good idea to try and hit another part of the face.

 

The sweet spot is in the middle. That is where you'll get the best, most consistent contact.

 

Physics and the club makers compensate somewhat for slight misses above and slightly right of dead center but I don't think it's a good idea to try to hit it there.

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29 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Thanks! I've read the info in that thread before. I wonder, though, if the info in the first post is still accurate regarding the ideal contact spot being a bit higher and outside the middle of the clubface? 

 

That's really just the ideal in the context of typically getting the most ball speed out of the club head speed.  It's not so far out that the COR is reduced significantly and the toe side of the driver is moving a bit faster than the heal side so the ball "sees" a slightly higher club head speed.   But that's not a lot of yardage gain for most compared to a dead center hit - it's pretty 'nit picky' approach for most ams.    But it's not necessarily going to be the ideal for everyone in terms of shot shape control since it impact toe side will add some draw spin - even more than might be desirable on occasion if the impact location tendencies are on the loose side of things.

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1 minute ago, Stuart_G said:

 

That's really just the ideal in the context of typically getting the most ball speed out of the club head speed.  It's not so far out that the COR is reduced significantly and the toe side of the driver is moving a bit faster than the heal side so the ball "sees" a slightly higher club head speed.   But that's not a lot of yardage gain for most compared to a dead center hit - it's pretty 'nit picky' approach for most ams.    But it's not necessarily going to be the ideal for everyone in terms of shot shape control since it impact toe side will add some draw spin - even more than might be desirable on occasion if the impact location tendencies are on the loose side of things.

 

Interesting, thanks. Sometimes when I hit a good drive it feels a little like I put the toe on it. 

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I would definitely look at the fitting aspect, I overhook pretty much anything not set in an anti-left position, it can definitely make a difference to encourage that little bit of closing, especially if we aren't talking about much. 

 

As others said, definitely sort out impact location and setup as well. 

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On 6/22/2021 at 7:08 PM, me05501 said:

I’ve worked hard to improve my swing through lessons, and my path into the ball is currently neutral if not 1-2* from the inside. My wedges up through my longest fairway wood produce a very straight flight most of the time. 
 

My path is the same with the driver but I tend to leave the face 2-4* open. The ball is hit solidly but goes way offline. 
 

My pro has me working on turning the face closed in transition. When this works, it works very well, but at other times my body stops turning on the way through and I get a low smother hook instead of the high draw I’m looking for. 
 

Here’s my question: should

I accept having to make a specific compensation in my driver swing to hit it straight, or is this something that is better solved with driver fitting? 

Did you buy your current driver off the rack? 

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17 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Did you buy your current driver off the rack? 

 

I've sort of been going through what you might call "informed experimentation." I am a long-time Callaway driver fan so I own several shafts with Callaway adapters. Over the last year I've owned several different heads, including the Rogue SZ 10.5, Epic Speed 10.5, Epic Max 10.5 and Big Bertha 21 in 9*. The right loft for me seems to be in the 9.5 range, but I'm learning that it's smarter to adjust a lower loft up than a higher loft down. 

 

11 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

What’s the angle of attack?

 

Relatively neutral, -1 to +1 probably. 

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On 6/23/2021 at 10:46 AM, me05501 said:

I really appreciate all the ideas. I just went to have a brief hit at the range to try to make sure I'm not over-doing anything. 

 

Seeing this video of a Rory driver swing helped me get more confident with my ball position. During my last few range sessions I've been putting the ball in a similar place relative to my setup and that's where I seem to get the most solid/square contact.

 

Literally for years and years my brain has worked against me, telling me to move the ball forward, either thinking it would lead to more distance or assuming it would allow the face more time to close. This just isn't the case with my swing and I need to remind myself constantly. I might not be able to swing like Rory but setting up correctly should be easy. 

 

With this sort of ball position, the "face closing" move I'm making is really subtle. It's more of a "don't let the face open" move. I don't feel like I'm doing much...just being a little more conscious of face orientation at the top. 

 

974513882_ScreenShot2021-06-23at10_40_11AM.png.3f4dacf36dd216cdd7b4bf1a1dbf2ad0.png

 

You should do whatever works for you but it's a bit odd to see this as your revelation. Putting the ball back in your stance and making no changes to your swing will promote a more open face at impact relative to the target line... not less.

 

If what you said in the original post is accurate, then you've got to be subconsciously making changes to hit the ball that work out in your favor. If not then I would speculate that there are some inaccuracies with your original post (meaning that it sounds like you think that the face is open to your target, but in reality it is only open to the swing path).

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9 hours ago, Celeras said:

 

You should do whatever works for you but it's a bit odd to see this as your revelation. Putting the ball back in your stance and making no changes to your swing will promote a more open face at impact relative to the target line... not less.

 

If what you said in the original post is accurate, then you've got to be subconsciously making changes to hit the ball that work out in your favor. If not then I would speculate that there are some inaccuracies with your original post (meaning that it sounds like you think that the face is open to your target, but in reality it is only open to the swing path).

 

That makes sense, yes, and if I was too vague this clears it up. It's the open face to path that causes me issues. 

 

Since I started this in the Equipment forum, I can say that I've had better results lately with turning a 9* driver up to 10* (closing the face a tiny bit) than I did before with a 10.5* driver turned down to 9.5* (opening the face slightly). The need to manually close the face is decreased and the required move is more subtle. I think this is helpful. It's clearly something that would have been discussed in a proper fitting. 

 

Another thing that has helped lately is practicing with foam golf balls. I've used them with irons for a while now, but using them with the driver has been really interesting.

 

Because the balls will only fly so far, my mind is free from the "how far did that go?" anxiety. I just focus on quality of impact and the ball flight. This is helping me feel the right tempo and move a bit better through more reps, and I'm grooving a good setup. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I've been putting in a lot of reps practicing driver and have continued to get closer to understanding what works or doesn't work for me mentally and physically. 

 

The concept of "closing the face" via hand rotation in transition works for me at times but it can backfire as well. Either I overdo the correction or stop my body turning through the shot and hit a low hook. It seems like that thought is counter-productive or at least inconsistent for me. 

 

Instead, I've had a lot of success with thinking "let it shallow" in the transition. For one thing I like the concept of letting the club do something versus making it do something. It's more passive. It seems to keep me from ruining my timing and trying to hit the ball. I get really good launch conditions based on ball flight. I'm interested to see how it looks and measures out when I have a lesson on Wednesday. 

 

***

 

I've also realized that for all the hours I've spent practicing and trying to improve my swing, I've not dedicated nearly enough time to the driver. I don't have the focus to hit 100 balls in a session, so in my typical 40-50 ball range visit I might hit 5-6 balls with driver. 

 

Now that I've got my overall swing working pretty well, I can invest more time in understanding how to adapt it to the particular needs of the driver. I'm having fun and gaining confidence as I go. I appreciate all the feedback and ideas!

Edited by me05501
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Posted (edited)

Had a good lesson yesterday. Frustrating, but good. We spent the entire time on driver and fairway woods. 

 

We went back over alignment and setup for my driver. My pro helped me understand I was setting up to the right of my target. We developed a new routine that is just like the one I use when putting. Choose an intermediate target, step in from behind and orient the club face at that target, and then set my body to match the club face orientation. 

 

My pro noticed that I was reaching for extension in my backswing and pulling my body out of position on the way back. This is something that I do subconsciously, not intentionally, so it's really hard to stay on top of it. We worked on quieting that and staying more over the ball.

 

As we worked on fairway woods, it was pretty easy for me to feel the right move, shallow the club in transition and use body rotation to square the path and club very well. I hit some great shots with my four wood and Heavenwood. When I get the driver in my hands, I make a different move. It's really a struggle to translate the same feeling that works so well with the other long clubs to the longest club of all. 

 

More work to be done. 

Edited by me05501
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      • 15 replies
    • 2021 TPC Colorado Champ. @ Heron Lakes WITB Photos- Discussion & Links
      Please put any questions or comments here...
       
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #1
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #2
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #3
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #4
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      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #6
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #7
       
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      • 16 replies
    • 2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic WITB Photos- Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here.
       
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      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #3
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    • 2021 Travelers Championship - Discussion & Links
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      • 20 replies

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