Mental issue causing casting/early release "hit impulse" Please help

[Jbarretta]

Today I did an experiment at the range.  I filmed myself hitting a golf whiffle ball.  The swing was perfect with a textbook P4,P5,P6,P7 positions.  You could see the weight transfer and hips opening.  Power package assembly intact coming from the top of the backswing.

 

I then filmed myself hitting regular golf ball.  Started casting and losing the wrist angles from transition.  P5 i have already lost lag.  At P6 hands are far from the thigh away from target and a bent lead arm at impact.

 

Please help me understand this mental phenomenon and share commentary and videos to help me.  Working so hard and spending 1000's to improve.  Thinking of getting the lagshot 7 iron.

 

 

[phizzy30]

Classic range pro.  I'm guilty.  I can hit straight bombs all day with driver and hit my irons crisp all day.  On the course, different story.  Your issue sounds mental, but there some muscle memory problems as well.  What you should do is keep practicing hitting the whiffle ball until your body has completely mastered the swing.  Then hit some real balls with the same mentality.  I find that this really helps. 

[Zitlow]

Here's the thing, almost everyone muscles and braces up like they're trying to hit an 18lb bowling ball, the golf only weighs 1.68oz.

 

What if I told you that the hit impulse is a good thing if you know how to do it. 

[Jbarretta]

4 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Here's the thing, almost everyone muscles and braces up like they're trying to hit an 18lb bowling ball, the golf only weighs 1.68oz.

 

What if I told you that the hit impulse is a good thing if you know how to do it. 

Please share your wisdom!

[Zitlow]

It's not my wisdom it's wisdom I learned from Mike Austin who passed in 2005 at age 95. Through Mike I met and got to play with Mike Dunaway who passed in 2014 at 59. He was flying his driver 370-390 yards on wet fairways, cart paths only. 

 

They didn't have "text book" positions or try to make their swings conform to a static plane established at address. They didn't pull or push the club. They didn't try to swing their arms or add power with their arms. They didn't hold angles. They didn't try to keep their backs facing the target as they started down. They didn't lead with the right elbow. They didn't try to squat and jump out of their shoes at impact. This stuff sells lessons but IMHO it's detrimental to hitting long straight balls. 

 

Here's what they were doing. They started releasing everything from the top in a throwing motion. What turned was unturned, what wound was unwound, what folded was unfolded. All in sequence using 6 pairs of joints to work the muscles. 

 

In other words they were getting a running start at the ball from the top. Dunaway said he was like a running broad jumper while everyone else were like standing broad jumpers. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[golfarb1]

Changing your swing involves 2 processes. The first is developing new neural pathways in your brain for your new improved swing .  The second and probably more difficult is to avoid regressing to your previous ingrained bad habits. The problem with the above second part is that the neural pathways for your old incorrect bad habits are much better developed than those of your new swing .

it seems pretty obvious that your new better swing pattern is not well developed and that you are regressing to your old ingrained habits when hitting a ball.

The solution is simple hit real balls . But do not even attempt doing so with a full length , full speed swing . Start out with much smaller swings and freezers . Once you are consistently compressing the ball increase the length and speed of your swing slightly. 

[glk]

post your videos.    otherwise any advice is worthless.

[scooterhd2]

52 minutes ago, Jbarretta said:

Today I did an experiment at the range.  I filmed myself hitting a golf whiffle ball.  The swing was perfect with a textbook P4,P5,P6,P7 positions.  You could see the weight transfer and hips opening.  Power package assembly intact coming from the top of the backswing.

 

I then filmed myself hitting regular golf ball.  Started casting and losing the wrist angles from transition.  P5 i have already lost lag.  At P6 hands are far from the thigh away from target and a bent lead arm at impact.

 

Please help me understand this mental phenomenon and share commentary and videos to help me.  Working so hard and spending 1000's to improve.  Thinking of getting the lagshot 7 iron.

 

 

 

I dont think this is much different than making a amazing practice swing. The whiffle ball has no feel to it. You don't know if you hit heel, toe, high, low. The whiffle ball doesnt have a penetrating flight. The drag is going to make it veer off. Face 1 degree or 2 degrees open is the same. In essence, there is no care how you hit the ball, where you hit the ball, or where it goes. The body can swing freely, like a beautiful practice swing.

 

Enter ball. Enter the goal of sending the ball at a specific target. Now the brain takes over the task. The body makes compensations for anything that the brain tells it is off. And the beautiful free body turn, results in a cast, stall, flip, that looks remarkably different than the practice swing. 

 

[Pepperturbo]

Practicing with whiffle balls improves nothing.   Yep, it's a mental thing when you're over a real ball.   If I were to guess, your mind chatter takes over, saying you have to swing hard to get the ball to fly a certain distance.  The same mind chatter says you don't have to swing as hard to hit a whiffle ball, cause you know it's not going anywhere.  Yep, it's mental....  You are the only one to change that.  Stop overanalyzing.

 

I see myself as a hitter of the ball, as opposed to Ernie Els swinger and the ball get in the way.  When I am over the ball, I look at my target then the ball, and use the club to hit the ball at the target.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Jbarretta]

 

[golfarb1]

First things first

Far too much shoulder tilt . Should be 5-8 degrees resulting from the fact that your trail hand  is below your lead hand on the grip. Related to this is that your hands are too much towards the target . With short irons your hands should be just back of your inner front thigh , not in the middle of your front thigh.

[glk]

This is not mental.    video is choppy and looks like the end of the backswing might have been lost .

 

things i see.    cupped right wrist which opens face.     backswing that swings around versus up with the arms.     so in downswing arms are to far behind body pivot with club face open - leads to the arm straightening early and chicken wing.

 

I see that you've sought out instruction - my take on that instruction you received from just the videos is that it wasn't worth the money spent - unfortunately it failed to actually help you - good instruction would have actually put you into a good setup posture and ball position as step 1 and then based on how you swung from there addressed the issues which are most likely going to be in the takeaway/backswing and wrist movements.

 

if you tell where about you live folks here might have recommendations for a good nearby instructor (cause I would never send anyone to those folks you've seen).

 

second concepts.  this isn't meant to address your issues but rather supply some information you may not be aware of (frankly I would expect an instructor to have included this type of information appropriate to your lessons)

  

setup.  https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/

 

 

body supply around, arms the up.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CL2FJmjFFyz/

 

wrists

 

in transition the lead wrist needs to flex (begin to bow) and start to unhinge (start).     this is a drill for that - where you exaggerate it early cause the downswing is about .25 sec so the intent needs to be from the top.   essentially you are twisting the club.  

     

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQevemnj5Jm/

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9upchvlBkK/

Edited June 25, 2021 by glk

[chipa]

3 hours ago, Jbarretta said:

Today I did an experiment at the range.  I filmed myself hitting a golf whiffle ball.  The swing was perfect with a textbook P4,P5,P6,P7 positions.  You could see the weight transfer and hips opening.  Power package assembly intact coming from the top of the backswing.

 

I then filmed myself hitting regular golf ball.  Started casting and losing the wrist angles from transition.  P5 i have already lost lag.  At P6 hands are far from the thigh away from target and a bent lead arm at impact.

 

Please help me understand this mental phenomenon and share commentary and videos to help me.  Working so hard and spending 1000's to improve.  Thinking of getting the lagshot 7 iron.

 

 

 

IMO opinion while this may not be a popular observation I believe the issue with lag is mechanical and not based on timing. In other words get the mechanics right with the correct muscles and sequence and then it's impossible to cast.

 

Certainly good players can get into good positions different ways, and I'm not referring to the plane but something that has to do with the muscles and bones lining up the way they should, mostly the hands and arms. Although the legs are super important of course but them alone won't get you there.

[Jbarretta]

I've taken 3 lessons with the pro at deepdale CC in manhasset long island.

 

He has been trying to get my hands back at address and focus on uncocking my wrists in downswing   surprisingly he is ok with my amount of lag.

 

 

[scooterhd2]

2 hours ago, Jbarretta said:

I've taken 3 lessons with the pro at deepdale CC in manhasset long island.

 

He has been trying to get my hands back at address and focus on uncocking my wrists in downswing   surprisingly he is ok with my amount of lag.

 

 

 

go through glks's post. you have alot of work to do. it is not a mental issue. and no slight to your pro, but the last thing you need to do is focus on uncocking your wrists. need to keep your hands back and rotate the body to the right. Hands coming out low and hard right. 

[dap]

7 hours ago, Jbarretta said:

 

I agree with your coach that you have enough lag but only just as you start your downswing. You then release WAY too early at the ball. It is a mental/visual/illusion problem in my opinion that afflicts a lot of amateurs. You need some kind of aiming point concept where you drastically alter your aiming point. There are a number of ways and you need to experiment to see which one works best for you. 

Ben Doyle who is a TGM based instructor likes to use impact hand location where at impact the hands feel like they are outside of your left foot. A lot of amateurs wrongly feel the hands are where the ball is at impact. Bobby Clampett who is also a TGM based instructor uses similar aiming point concepts. You can search on YouTube for his ideas.

 

I personally prefer something very simple. I pick a point on the ground in front of the ball and try to hit that instead of the ball. How much in front depends on the player and how serious the hit impulse is. You may need to aim at least 6 inches in front of the ball with irons and 12 inches with driver. Greg Norman and Rory Mcilroy have both said they swing at a point 12 inches in front of the ball when they drive. This will create a later release and full extension of both arms and club post impact and not chicken winging the lead arm. Practice without a ball at first and gradually introduce a real ball.

 

[ChaosTheory]

The ball is the culprit.  It switches the brain into caveman golfer mode.

 

I got better by swinging all winter in the house with no ball.  Trying to hit a forward-ish spot on the carpet.  When spring came it was ingrained and it transferred easily to hitting balls. 

[golfarb1]

6 hours ago, Jbarretta said:

I've taken 3 lessons with the pro at deepdale CC in manhasset long island.

 

He has been trying to get my hands back at address and focus on uncocking my wrists in downswing   surprisingly he is ok with my amount of lag.

 

 

Deepdale is a terrific golf course with a very well regarded teaching pro. 

[chipa]

I think any technique that requires a lot of action on the downswing other than swinging both hands and arms to the target will rob one of clubhead speed.

 

I also understand that people get into an unenviable position at the top and sense there is no way to generate speed from that position. However, focusing on trying to remedy that by other mechanics may never allow one to swing freely.

[naval2006]

Video is claryfing. Keep on taking lessons and practicing and you'll definitely improve; the more sound technique, the fewer mental issues is the rule of thumb.  And play as much as you can, the course swing is THE swing in golf, the rest is just good intentions.  

[Tanner25]

20 hours ago, glk said:

This is not mental.    video is choppy and looks like the end of the backswing might have been lost .

 

things i see.    cupped right wrist which opens face.     backswing that swings around versus up with the arms.     so in downswing arms are to far behind body pivot with club face open - leads to the arm straightening early and chicken wing.

 

I see that you've sought out instruction - my take on that instruction you received from just the videos is that it wasn't worth the money spent - unfortunately it failed to actually help you - good instruction would have actually put you into a good setup posture and ball position as step 1 and then based on how you swung from there addressed the issues which are most likely going to be in the takeaway/backswing and wrist movements.

 

if you tell where about you live folks here might have recommendations for a good nearby instructor (cause I would never send anyone to those folks you've seen).

 

second concepts.  this isn't meant to address your issues but rather supply some information you may not be aware of (frankly I would expect an instructor to have included this type of information appropriate to your lessons)

  

setup.  https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/

 

 

body supply around, arms the up.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CL2FJmjFFyz/

 

wrists

 

in transition the lead wrist needs to flex (begin to bow) and start to unhinge (start).     this is a drill for that - where you exaggerate it early cause the downswing is about .25 sec so the intent needs to be from the top.   essentially you are twisting the club.  

     

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQevemnj5Jm/

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9upchvlBkK/

 

GLK, Thanks, for posting the videos! On the Zack Allen vid. By putting the club up against the trail shoulder, turn the body and extend the arms out, I get into a great backswing position at the top, just like in the video.  Do you have to "just do it", meaning turn, up and extend and practice it a lot? I can't seem to get into the same position by trying to do it. I am not sure if this is not easy, I have a bad back and can't do it or I'm not blending these moves correctly. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thx!

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Tanner25

[glk]

30 minutes ago, Tanner25 said:

 

GLK, Thanks, for posting the videos! On the Zack Allen vid. By putting the club up against the trail shoulder, turn the body and extend the arms out, I get into a great backswing position at the top, just like in the video.  Do you have to "just do it", meaning turn, up and extend and practice it a lot? I can't seem to get into the same position by trying to do it. I am not sure if this is not easy, I have a bad back and can't do it or I'm not blending these moves correctly. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thx!

 

the drill is intended to give one the feel of a good top of the backswing position and Zach notes that you can swing from there however the drill lacks in actually getting a more dynamic motion involved so I wouldn't recommend it as any more than a drill.      To me, a good way to work on the backswing is to chunk it up into at least 2 parts - first to p2 then to the top at p4 - if you get into a good p2 then all that is required is additional turn (could also turn to p3 as an interim chunk too).

 

So how to get to p2.  there are lots of different possibilities, stick drills, nike, etc.     I like this one from Todd Casabella - it gets at a number of important items - pivot and arms turn together, trail forearm stays above lead, arms can't work too far inside nor outside - now this assumes a good, relaxed setup and a good knee and hip motion.  Something I see is folks don't get how much pivot is involved early in the backswing - the arms swing too much and often cut off the pivot rotation causing it to be too late to the party - this drill makes it all work together - use it to get to p2 and from there to the top is just more rotation.      By p3, folks should have pretty much rotated their ribcage 90* - this keeps the arms more in front as long as a lawn mower pull with the trail arm isn't used and from there it's rotation and the arms will work up in front of the body getting into that Zach Allen video spot.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

here is a little drill that can go along - no club, golf setup, get body moving as in gif (swing more from the upper arm), and swing arm straight down the line as one makes a pivot - you might think your arm is going straight down the line but when added to the pivot is going slightly inward - if you added your right hand to the club when you stop you'll find that your hands are right across from your trail pec - too many folks pull the lead arm inside too early - don't need to pull the arm inside at all - the pivot will provide all the inside needed.

 

 

for additional enjoyment you can throw in a assisted, single trail arm swing

 

[RichieHunt]

You're hitting a ball that weighs ~50 grams so that alone changes the mechanics vs hitting a whiffle ball.

 

What I see from golfers that struggle with this issue is that it's really more mechanics and force related than mental related.  Normally these golfers have restricted their backswing pivot and/or the swinging of their lead arm in the backswing as well as not getting enough force to precede the motion they are making.  The backswing gets very short and centered looking then there's no real 'drifting forward' in transition, they just pull down with the arms with a lot of reverse axis tilt.

 

 

 

 

RH

[Jbarretta]

Watched Waldron arm swing illusion and Amg about lead arm adduction across chest   working on keep arms in front of chest   P6 looks better but still hit impulse in transition.   Also I cant supinate my lead arm much so my followthrough will never be perfect    any improvement?

[DaveLeeNC]

On 6/25/2021 at 12:44 PM, Pepperturbo said:

Practicing with whiffle balls improves nothing.   Yep, it's a mental thing when you're over a real ball.   If I were to guess, your mind chatter takes over, saying you have to swing hard to get the ball to fly a certain distance.  The same mind chatter says you don't have to swing as hard to hit a whiffle ball, cause you know it's not going anywhere.  Yep, it's mental....  You are the only one to change that.  Stop overanalyzing.

 

I see myself as a hitter of the ball, as opposed to Ernie Els swinger and the ball get in the way.  When I am over the ball, I look at my target then the ball, and use the club to hit the ball at the target.

FWIW, I am very familiar with the difference between my swing hitting a leaf (or nothing) and hitting a golf ball. But in general my "hitting a ball problems" show up hitting plastic balls.  dave

[Jbarretta]

 

 

[stingerfade]

On 6/25/2021 at 10:03 PM, golfarb1 said:

Deepdale is a terrific golf course with a very well regarded teaching pro. 

And very exclusive and pricey. A bit of a  Humble brag there lol 

[Zitlow]

@Jbarretta A lot of us waste time trying to fix something that may not be broken while ignoring obvious flaws. 

 

Look at his elbow orientation at set up and pay close attention to the inside of his right elbow coming into impact, at impact and post impact notice the inside of his left elbow. He's slinging the club. 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Zitlow

[Jbarretta]

@Zitlow thanks for the video  my early swings had a cast and bad sequencing in transition. Im focusing on wide backswing narrow downswing.  i read in manuel de la torre book that if you take same path on backswing and downswing you will always lose wrist angles and cast  i went to one piece and as you can see im getting much better lag and open hips.  Im still missing lead arm suppination hence  the chicken wing but all in all much better ball flight and im down to an 18 index.  Whats your feedback on my swing from address to impact?  My coach (who sees my ball flight and is a top 100 doesnt mind the "wing"  he brings up spieth and westwood  and im carrying a 7 iron 200 yards if I nail it) 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Jbarretta

[Zitlow]

@Jbarretta I look at golf swings in the context of Mike Austin's swing model which is almost 100% diametrically opposed to what is being taught today. 

 

 Most people are trying to generate speed with their arms or pivot. Austin's used his hands right off the ball. His hands worked his arms and his pivot put him in a position to sling the club with his hands. 

 

His right hand was driving the swing, watch how the shaft is moving. It doesn't take weeks, months or years to learn it, there's a very short learning curve once you know how the hands work.