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Modern Driver Draw Issue


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We've all heard Rory say he can't draw the modern drivers as well any more. I hit a draw my whole life and still hit a draw with every club except driver which is cut/slice. This is not an unknown concept, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone explain why that is. What's the science behind this? I have a 430cc SLDR 9* that I actually have set to two clicks lower ie a few degrees open and I can turn that over. Every other driver I have had that are more recent, it's the fade....M1, M2, M3, SIM, SIM2....all fades. I swap out the head, put the SLDR on the same shaft with the same SW, again, a couple degrees open, and it's a nice draw and even some hooks. Can anyone explain?

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My driver slice comes from my face angle to path, I am open on a miss. I have hit a few draws on accident, though. 

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I'm similar - can easily put a big draw on anything except driver (used to with old heads like 250cc at same length).  I can draw my TS2 I believe because of face closure due to COG trying to align with shaft axis.

 

I have a theory that there is sensitivity to MOI around the shaft axis.  This is a different MOI that's not reported anywhere, as head MOI as we hear it is taken at a vertical axis through the COG of the head or through the center of the face to indicate forgiveness on off-center hits.  The latest driver heads are distributing mass farther back away from the face which provides for more resistance to twisting on off-center hits.  That is also moving mass away from the hosel or shaft axis.  This inherently creates more resistance to twisting around the hosel-shaft axis - ability to roll the wrists if you will.  This happens regardless that the club face will close automatically as the head COG tries to align with the shaft axis, which may or may not overrule the MOI effect as far as face angle vs path.

 

However in terms of hitting draw, it would make a difference if you can or can't get the face square/closed to path at impact.  That much is personal how you react to this MOI, and can be a timing thing.  I believe it manifests when someone is grooved with other clubs or drivers, wrist-rolling-wise, then can't quite get the same amount of rotation to a big driver head to be closed vs path at impact to create a draw like the other clubs.

 

Take an extreme example: say instead of a 200g driver head, you put another shaft (60g) sticking out 90° with a 140g weight at the end of it.  That will be a lot harder to rotate than the clubhead.  It will more likely be open vs path at the bottom of the swing.

 

See the last several posts in the thread below where I brought up Rory's comment:

 

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18 minutes ago, joostin said:

I'm similar - can easily put a big draw on anything except driver (used to with old heads like 250cc at same length).  I can draw my TS2 I believe because of face closure due to COG trying to align with shaft axis.

 

I have a theory that there is sensitivity to MOI around the shaft axis.  This is a different MOI that's not reported anywhere, as head MOI as we hear it is taken at a vertical axis through the COG of the head or through the center of the face to indicate forgiveness on off-center hits.  The latest driver heads are distributing mass farther back away from the face which provides for more resistance to twisting on off-center hits.  That is also moving mass away from the hosel or shaft axis.  This inherently creates more resistance to twisting around the hosel-shaft axis - ability to roll the wrists if you will.  This happens regardless that the club face will close automatically as the head COG tries to align with the shaft axis, which may or may not overrule the MOI effect as far as face angle vs path.

 

However in terms of hitting draw, it would make a difference if you can or can't get the face square/closed to path at impact.  That much is personal how you react to this MOI, and can be a timing thing.  I believe it manifests when someone is grooved with other clubs or drivers, wrist-rolling-wise, then can't quite get the same amount of rotation to a big driver head to be closed vs path at impact to create a draw like the other clubs.

 

Take an extreme example: say instead of a 200g driver head, you put another shaft (60g) sticking out 90° with a 140g weight at the end of it.  That will be a lot harder to rotate than the clubhead.  It will more likely be open vs path at the bottom of the swing.

 

See the last several posts in the thread below where I brought up Rory's comment:

 

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In this video from TXG they fit the customer into a draw driver, and explain: "The D-type is not as much about the closed face anymore, it's about the internal weighting and how it's going to perform from the strike perspective, so move that weight into the heel, a center strike acts like a toe strike because of the C.G."

 

 

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Its mainly to do with cog. Bigger heads tend to have further back away from face and further out towards toe in relation to the shaft. All this points to making it more difficult to square the clubface. All the Taylormades you mentioned are neutral or fade biased in their cog placement. If you want to really turn one over, try the D type, or other brands draw biased heads. Or just strengthen the heck out of your grip 😂

Edited by Red4282
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6 hours ago, lefthack said:

My driver slice comes from my face angle to path, I am open on a miss. I have hit a few draws on accident, though. 

Opposite here.  I can draw any driver on the market both past and present.  I can hit a cut now but it's not consistent.  In the past, I couldn't hit a fade and when I did it was by accident.  The only time I could not turn the ball over was a shaft issue.  R9 Super Tri w/TP7HD.  When I had the Fubuki Alpha in it, I could turn it over just fine.  I have an OG SIM sitting in my bedroom that I can turn over on command very easily although it is fade biased.  I don't get the whole can't turn the ball over with modern heads thing.

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I think we're all familiar with the "toe hook" shot, aren't we? That ugly, looping shot that starts out way right, hooks back miles to left and (unlike a genuine draw) manages not to go nearly as far as a normal straight ball. Just not a shot anyone really wants to see, am I right?

 

In my limited experience trying strongly heel-weighted "draw enhancing" drivers or fairway woods, they mostly seem to turn normal shots into something a little like a toe-hook. I can imagine if your normal swing flaws produce a big banana slice maybe combined a toe-hook tendency and a banana-slice swing kind of averages out into a playable ball. But I am 100% convinced that for non-slicers the heel weighted draw drivers just costs distance. Especially so if your contact is out toward the toe.

 

Rory isn't wanting to turn a slice swing into straight or a straight swing into a draw. He's wanted to make what would be a draw swing with any other club and get a reliable draw with his driver. A lot of the slice busting features of modern drivers just cost his distance and consistency when he puts a Tour pro level draw swing on them. 

Edited by North Butte

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2 hours ago, North Butte said:

I think we're all familiar with the "toe hook" shot, aren't we? That ugly, looping shot that starts out way right, hooks back miles to left and (unlike a genuine draw) manages not to go nearly as far as a normal straight ball. Just not a shot anyone really wants to see, am I right?

 

In my limited experience trying strongly heel-weighted "draw enhancing" drivers or fairway woods, they mostly seem to turn normal shots into something a little like a toe-hook. I can imagine if your normal swing flaws produce a big banana slice maybe combined a toe-hook tendency and a banana-slice swing kind of averages out into a playable ball. But I am 100% convinced that for non-slicers the heel weighted draw drivers just costs distance. Especially so if your contact is out toward the toe.

 

Rory isn't wanting to turn a slice swing into straight or a straight swing into a draw. He's wanted to make what would be a draw swing with any other club and get a reliable draw with his driver. A lot of the slice busting features of modern drivers just cost his distance and consistency when he puts a Tour pro level draw swing on them. 


I agree with everything up until that last bit. Which modern "slice busting" driver is Rory playing? The M5 and the SIM he played previously were both very fade biased drivers, the M5 so much so that he had the weight in the draw position to neutralize it.

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7 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


I agree with everything up until that last bit. Which modern "slice busting" driver is Rory playing? The M5 and the SIM he played previously were both very fade biased drivers, the M5 so much so that he had the weight in the draw position to neutralize it.

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I believe the golf ball is just as big a factor as the club head. It just doesn’t spin on square contact anymore 

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12 hours ago, Valtiel said:


IMO it is a spin issue. Draws need spin for stability, and Rory was a 2,600-2,700 spin guy when he was playing the bigger, sweeping draw. Nowadays he is a 2,200-2,300 spin guy and as someone with a toe miss, that leaves less room for error before the ugly toe hook you mentioned starts creeping in. The modern driver, and especially the last two generations of TM, are launching higher and spinning less than drivers from 8-10 years ago, and while this is great for overall distance, it is not the best thing in the world for the draw player. Combine that with the modern ball that also spins less and wants to fly straighter and it continues to make the drawer tougher. I think Rory has always been a higher spin guy, and modern driver design may be starting to work against him a little bit. His natural driver swing has always been higher launching and lower spinning, and I think there was a sweet spot for that when drivers were a littler higher CG and higher spinning. He started struggling a bit when the SIM came out which is a significantly lower CG head than the M5 he was playing. 

Rory also said that he has been working on neutralizing his path with Pete Cowen, and I think that is more what he is dealing with now. Rory said " I'd aim it down the middle of the fairway, I know if I made my normal swing it would start on the right edge and draw back to the middle. It just doesn't—it doesn't quite happen anymore." That is/was a product of his naturally slightly under plane, in to out swing, a swing that he is now trying to neutralize a bit which will obviously reduce his natural draw. He has also played cuts for years, you can go back to the Nike days and see them, so I don't get this "the modern driver doesn't draw and I have to commit to a new approach" line he is taking. 

I totally agree with these statements, a higher spin 25-2700 rpm will draw so much easier than the lower spin heads. This is the exact reason I'm back to playing an older titleist driver. Easy to hit tight draws.  Im hitting more fairways and keeping the ball in play on slight mishits. I was loosing a lot of ball out right with the epic and 425lst. 

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14 hours ago, klbcec said:

The new drivers are much harder to fade as well.  It's kind of annoying. You have to exaggerate to fade or draw now.


I actually feel like a lot of what I mentioned above is beneficial for faders. The fade used to be a shorter control shot for many, but with the modern ball and head it can be better optimized for distance and run out. 
 

14 hours ago, Booker said:

I totally agree with these statements, a higher spin 25-2700 rpm will draw so much easier than the lower spin heads. This is the exact reason I'm back to playing an older titleist driver. Easy to hit tight draws.  Im hitting more fairways and keeping the ball in play on slight mishits. I was loosing a lot of ball out right with the epic and 425lst. 


I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the dual driver setup started to creep in at some point. Optimizing two different clubs for the two different flights from the same/similar swing mechanics feels like a higher percentage play, and the ability to swap the traditional 3w & 5w for a single 4w to free up that spot in the bag feels more viable than ever these days. 

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57 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


I actually feel like a lot of what I mentioned above is beneficial for faders. The fade used to be a shorter control shot for many, but with the modern ball and head it can be better optimized for distance and run out. 
 


I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the dual driver setup started to creep in at some point. Optimizing two different clubs for the two different flights from the same/similar swing mechanics feels like a higher percentage play, and the ability to swap the traditional 3w & 5w for a single 4w to free up that spot in the bag feels more viable than ever these days. 

 

Phils doing the 1w/2w thing right now. Visionary or crazy person? Yet to be seen.

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10 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

 

Phils doing the 1w/2w thing right now. Visionary or crazy person? Yet to be seen.


Hah, Phil has always been Phil, so unfortunately it will take someone more "traditional" making the move to legitimize it. 

I also don't think it would make sense for everyone. DJ is duly bound to his cut off the tee and probably has little desire for something that draws. Similar for Rahm I think. Someone like Rory however obviously wants to work the ball both ways and keep the driver his biggest weapon, so I don't see why two of them designed to produce different shapes with similar swings isn't out of the question. Yes he can do that with one driver when he is "on", but how much is he losing when he isn't? Rory's confidence and motivation seems to be a little fickle as well, so being able to rely on the big stick even more would help him mentally perhaps more than others. 

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Back on topic in regards to us amateurs - it's all about weight and timing. 

 

I am a natural draw player with every single club... Except D and 3w. Always cuts, and slice miss. After a massive amount on trackman, found out that path was just fine - face was wide open. 

 

I replaced my grips to have a slightly shut face. Same swing, now ball goes relatively straight. The kicker, though... miss now is a snap 🪝😂

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@Valtiel valid points on the spin for draw. And definitely on the 2 driver setup for different shapes (because that's exactly my route 😄).  But going back to the spin and looking at the OP, all things equal he can draw the 430 SLDR cranked low and open, but not the M1 M2 M3 SIMs.  SLDR would be relatively low spin still, similar CG height to M1 M2 definitely lower than M3 (not sure vs SIM), granted strike location will change things and it's a single person.  For this reason, myself included, and what @Hack Daddy said above, I think it comes down to some of us just not getting face angle to where it should be at impact for the draw with some clubs - again all things equal with length, weight, and path, despite being able to draw everything else including older drivers at the same specs.  We still have to tilt that spin axis to the left (righty) regardless of RPM, and it's not there.

 

That's why I keep coming back to the face closure vs MOI around shaft axis thing.  In a way it's similar to grip size - some people feel they slice with jumbo grips, others don't see a difference at all.  There's definitely different sensitivities there, and I think the same with "turning over" timing of the club, due to sensitivity of that MOI.  Also there are different reactions to high offset irons.  The farther back CG tries to align to the shaft axis, closing the face, but also creates a higher MOI and resists turning over more.  Some think they're hook prone, others not.

 

I think some can more easily get that tilted spin axis / D plane for the draw because they're able to get the face "back to normal" with that less turning-over resistance MOI.  It's CG related, but moreso the mass distribution from the hosel.  The CG aligning to shaft axis thing helps to close the face in itself, but I think those different sensitivities make the difference.

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Here’s the thing: TM could definitely fit Rory into a driver that was easy to draw if that was still his goal. The same tech that helps fitters optimize players into low-spin bombers could be used to put them into a club that favored a draw, but it’s likely that total distance would max out at a lower number. 
 

I think what Rory’s really saying is “the specific fit that maxes out my optimal distance is no longer draw-biased.” 

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The internal weighting has already been covered. Another perspective on draw/slice...

 

From swing side, you need right stance and ball position to draw the ball. If you are missing to right, check to make sure the ball is not too far back in stance. Too far back sends ball to right because clubface has not had time to square up during downswing. Many golfers overwork spinning the hosel wrench and underwork tweaking their stance.

 

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3 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

The internal weighting has already been covered. Another perspective on draw/slice...

 

From swing side, you need right stance and ball position to draw the ball. If you are missing to right, check to make sure the ball is not too far back in stance. Too far back sends ball to right because clubface has not had time to square up during downswing. Many golfers overwork spinning the hosel wrench and underwork tweaking their stance.

 

 

Agree w this - a lot of times, I see people think they're hitting a pull. In reality, it's completely straight. Ball position is a big time factor, too 

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On 6/27/2021 at 5:55 AM, pinhigh27 said:

The fact that more people are hitting up on ball for more distance also makes it more difficult. If you swing significantly up (+3 - +5) you are shifting things a decent amount and you need a pretty significantly rightward path to draw the ball(for a righty ). This doesn’t really transfer as well to other clubs in bag where you aren’t swinging up and getting the same plane shift. It just makes things more complex. 

 

I think you nailed it here. Everyone now tries to get positive angle of attack with driver when they're neutral or negative with all their other clubs. The driver setup/swing has become it's own thing. And it just doesn't favor hitting a draw since the club is already moving left by the time you hit the ball.

 

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The modern design and weighting of OEM drivers ALL lean on some degree of "straight" forgiveness, even club heads with an internal fade bias.  The variable is how much the users natural swing mechanics work for or against the club head bias and desired flight path.  It's easier for most people to create a fade because of the motion of their body naturally feeds the fade trajectory.

 

Other workability factors are the AoA of the club head, as well as the golfers natural flight (draw or fade), hand action and swing speed.  I hit driver straight 98%, and the balance both directions, same for irons.

 

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16 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Other workability factors are the AoA of the club head, as well as the golfers natural flight (draw or fade), hand action and swing speed.  I hit driver straight 98%, and the balance both directions, same for irons.

 

I'm  a right-hander. Played a draw for a long time. I've had arthritic right hip trouble for a decade, and it really started to hurt last season.

 

One day this season I was working on wedges, which I hit with slight cut shots. Noticed there wasn't much pain. On a lark, I tried hitting full shots with a fade, and it didn't hurt much at all.  So, I played several rounds now with mainly fades. It hurts post round, but not much hip stiffening problem on the back nine. Irons coming along nicely in fade, but long clubs still a bit wild.

 

For fade address, I use old Nicklaus setup with stance and shoulders slightly open, and clubface square to target. According to new ball flight rules from a few years back, this shouldn't work. But, it seems to for me...

 

Fades are nice decent shots, but the slight miss goes straight, and longer, than fade. Straight usually stops in first cut, or left edge of fairway.

 

So, when did you start emphasizing straight ball? Golfdom was buzzing about it maybe five years ago, but I haven't heard much on it lately. Don't know if I could count on straight driver or not.

-------------------------

P.S. My golf pro from last three years retired to Idaho (I'm near St. Louis). Others are in short supply. Midseason, no tune-up lesson yet! Will probably minimize golf until I find hip cure.

What's In The Bag (Summary as of October 2021, post-MAX changeover)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, set 9.5°; weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Calla Mavrik MAX 5i-PW

Wedges*:  Calla MD3: 48°... MD4: 54°, 58° ||  Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip

Ball: 1. Srixon Q-Star Tour / 2. Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

For details see:  Pending (need protocol to embed file list).

     * MD4 54°/10 S-Grind replaced MD3 54°/12 W-Grind.

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40 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

So, when did you start emphasizing straight ball? Golfdom was buzzing about it maybe five years ago, but I haven't heard much on it lately.

Not sure what straight ball and Golfdom means?

 

I have been hitting the ball straight for as long as I can remember.  Given what I have read since, it's kinda weird.  Many years back buddies asked me to play golf, I said sure.  Went to LGS, bought a set of Ping irons and woods, showed up to play 18 holes and shot a 94 from white tees, hitting the ball kinda straight.

 

That day I decided to teach myself golf so bought 3-instruction books.  About 8 months later switched to Mizuno blades and practice regime was 1100+/- balls, and 1-2 rds of golf per week; did that for 4yrs.  The more I focused on ball striking using the dime sweet spot, the straighter my trajectory became.  I got a bum hip too.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Not sure what straight ball and Golfdom means?

Back about 2009 (?), I was working with pro, looking at all aspects of the swing. He said I could hit the ball longer if I focused on straight ball, rather than a draw. I tried it for a season, but sprayed the long clubs all over. I saw an occasional video clip about going to "straight ball," but I can't identify anyone back then who was the SB guru.

 

1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

I have been hitting the ball straight for as long as I can remember.  Given what I have read since, it's kinda weird.

 

Mantra for a long time has been go with fade or draw as stock shot "to take half the course away." Lately I have been seeing articles - largely undated online articles - about the benefits of playing for straight shots. One article Golfstead - Straight even has pointers on how to convert draw or fade primary into straight shots.

 

Then, there's the low-spin balls such as Bridgestone e6 and Callaway Warbird that are touted as going straight. Playing them supposedly helps.

What's In The Bag (Summary as of October 2021, post-MAX changeover)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, set 9.5°; weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Calla Mavrik MAX 5i-PW

Wedges*:  Calla MD3: 48°... MD4: 54°, 58° ||  Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip

Ball: 1. Srixon Q-Star Tour / 2. Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

For details see:  Pending (need protocol to embed file list).

     * MD4 54°/10 S-Grind replaced MD3 54°/12 W-Grind.

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