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golf's three most overrated currently common beliefs ?


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1. Nicklaus is a good course designer. 2. The putter is the most important club in the bag. 3. The USGA is a non-profit entity.

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3 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Riviera #10.

 

Stupid pro golfers are/were laying back 50-60 yards.

 

 

 

 

Mostly were now. This hole is really the perfect use case for decade and (SG in general). Fawcett said in 2018 ~50% went for it. In 2021 that has shifted to ~80%. I wonder what is compelling the best golfers in the world to change their strategy. It's surely not bonified data and statistics. I am not sure why people are paying these guys, what scam artists they are. Complete fool's gold they are pedaling.

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1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Thank you for clarifying how the referenced decision should be made. 

Ha, love the sarcasm. 

Do you know if claimed goal posts movement is true or is it just things  flying over someone's head?

So answer. Do you know yardages, dispersion's and tendencies, I know mine, aware of how I'm feeling & aware of conditions. Know my "cone" as Decade describes, play hole from pin back, know go zones on greens and in fairways. Know desired angles and distances before tee is in ground. Big tactical improvement came respecting tree top wind a lot more which is quite stronger than one can sense. So i screw up but it's really on execution side now. SG does zero for that. Tactical genius in my book was Hogan. read up, guy was good. Eschewed yardage markers too, heads would explode today with that. Alrighty then. I'm out.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Nard_S said:

I don't consider it short or long, it's pretty average with the gear readily available. Lots of mocking here about the "unicorns" who drive it 235 but stats suggest that's near normal for a guy over 45. They are 1.6% unicorns for sure but it has zero to do with their driving prowess. 

Meh it’s not normal. I play with competitive guys in that age range and they hit it a lot longer than 235. It may be less uncommon than for a 20 yr old who hits it 235 but if you go to the us mid am and look at 45+ crowd or an elite senior am event, I doubt anyone hitting it 235. Champions tour guys way longer than that 

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5 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Ha, love the sarcasm. 

Do you know if claimed goal posts movement is true or is it just things  flying over someone's head?

So answer. Do you know yardages, dispersion's and tendencies, I know mine, aware of how I'm feeling & aware of conditions. Know my "cone" as Decade describes, play hole from pin back, know go zones on greens and in fairways. Know desired angles and distances before tee is in ground. Big tactical improvement came respecting tree top wind a lot more which is quite stronger than one can sense. So i screw up but it's really on execution side now. SG does zero for that. Tactical genius in my book was Hogan. read up, guy was good. Eschewed yardage markers too, heads would explode today with that. Alrighty then. I'm out.

 

 

See, that's where I disagree. There are a lot of things that "experts" believe, and then sometimes analytics show that experts are wrong.

 

Baseball it was Sabermetrics. You identify where there are gaps in strategy that can be exploited. When everyone zigs, sometimes you can exploit the situation if you zag. The premise behind Moneyball was exactly that, and it woke the sport up to the idea that maybe the way you've done things for a half-century isn't the only or the best way to do things. The effect for Oakland was short-lived, of course, because once they showed it could be done, everyone jumped in.

 

In the NFL, analytics showed that head coaches weren't aggressive enough, regarding things like going for it on 4th down and when to go for 2 after a touchdown, etc. It reversed the idea that when you pass the ball "only three things can happen, and two are bad". It changed the sport.

 

In golf, the concept of strokes gained is simple. Its a framework that allows you to determine based on a result, how successful the shot actually was. And by looking at that over many shots, you can start to understand things that may fly in the face of conventional wisdom, and influence your decision-making regarding the best way to reduce score. Such as the idea of "lay up to a comfortable yardage", which was shown to not be a score-minimizing strategy relative to hitting it as close to the green as you can. That's very akin to not going for it enough on 4th down in the NFL. Something people thought was a smart idea, but wasn't actually a smart idea.

 

SG is one method to analyze these results, which can tell us how to make better decisions. Saying it does zero is like the old-school baseball managers who made decisions based on the "eye test" or NFL coaches who thought it was better to punt on 4th and 1 from the 48 yard line than go for it. They were wrong, but nobody could prove it before analytics. And nobody second-guessed them, because who had better information than them, right?

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2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Saying it does zero

I said it did zero for my execution, SG is a strategic thing, not an execution thing. 

 

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Such as the idea of "lay up to a comfortable yardage", which was shown to not be a score-minimizing strategy relative to hitting it as close to the green as you can.

I have adopted "go for it in two strategy" for quite sometime. The birds dropped when I was forced to lay up and stuck several PW's close. It is demoralizing to chip within 10-12 feet and miss putt. It is motivating to stick it within 10 feet with a full wedge. Did not miss. I'm not saying SG is wrong on this, so I will continue to swing hard into green but it's not every and all.

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2 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

but if you go to the us mid am and look at 45+ crowd or an elite senior am event, I doubt anyone hitting it 235.

Hah, would agree but....so now it's not just scratch it's the guys going for US amateur, got goal posts? Of less than 2% of heady scratch, how many might contend there? Dunno, but maybe 80/20 rule applies so what maybe .4% of all golfers qualify? So elite of elite. Right, and they probably are all here on WRX. Guy in my town won it and went to US Open the year Pavin won. His home course was tiny but then again this is before strokes gain and big ti. So it don't count, right?

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On 7/1/2021 at 10:33 AM, Fairway14 said:

1) distance is highly significant to scoring

2) getting fit for clubs is essential

3) large club heads are more forgiving than small club heads

 

The above are three common perceptions I often hear and, or, read, but find to be misleading and, or, false.

 

 

I don't know why the replies in this thread have focused so much upon the OP's  #1 (Broadie nonsense) , because nos. 2 and nos. 3 are doing as much or more harm to the game of golf. Specifically, fitters are putting too many players in too light weight of shafts, which on the course causes swing tempo-rhythm problems. And, the jumbo size heads are harder to square at impact than a relatively small size head, especially from less than ideal lies.

So please don't blame only Broadie, because the fitters and OEM's are far from innocent.

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If you want to hear every overrated belief / myth prevalent in the 1980’s in the USA, step on any lesson tee in Australia. It’s quite unbelievable how bad instruction is here.

 

Today I happened to be at a popular facility and overheard the head instructor telling an older guy “in golf, speed is all in the hips, not the arms and hands. How fast you rotate your body is how far you hit it”. This poor ~70 year old was trying to move his hips like Rory while bunting out little 100 yard dribblers with noodle arms, ugh

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23 pages of flannel. 

 

Can you play good golf hitting 230 from the tee? Yes. 

 

Does another 40-50 yards with a modicum of control make it easier to play good golf? Yes.

 

When on earth does anything else need to be said on this subject? Man, just you wait until you're in my position of not being able to swing a club anymore and you'll soon realise you were wasting hours talking nonsense that could have been spent on the course. 

 

(Drops mic)

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8 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Hah, would agree but....so now it's not just scratch it's the guys going for US amateur, got goal posts? Of less than 2% of heady scratch, how many might contend there? Dunno, but maybe 80/20 rule applies so what maybe .4% of all golfers qualify? So elite of elite. Right, and they probably are all here on WRX. Guy in my town won it and went to US Open the year Pavin won. His home course was tiny but then again this is before strokes gain and big ti. So it don't count, right?

I played in a league for years with guys that age who were scratch or even a little worse often. They all hit it further than 235. 

 

Again I really don't think you guys understand what outliers mean. You can be a NBA point guard and be a poor shooter, you just have to have some other excellent attributes to make up for it. However most NBA point guards aren't poor shooters. 

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3 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

They all hit it further than 235.

Again, it's a USGA survey, it's readily readable on the web. They are averages for every age group. Over 40 is 255 and under. Not outliers, averages. The outlier is a 50 year old hitting it 270. They are closer to 235. Not anecdotal, it is used to determine course ratings but they are wrong,okay. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I don't know why the replies in this thread have focused so much upon the OP's  #1 (Broadie nonsense) , because nos. 2 and nos. 3 are doing as much or more harm to the game of golf. Specifically, fitters are putting too many players in too light weight of shafts, which on the course causes swing tempo-rhythm problems. And, the jumbo size heads are harder to square at impact than a relatively small size head, especially from less than ideal lies.

So please don't blame only Broadie, because the fitters and OEM's are far from innocent.

 

Regarding what you quoted, #2, a bad fitting is not evidence to the counter that fittings are essential.  I agree that fittings are not essential.  They are just a short cut to get where you might have gotten on your own.  But a bad fitting is something different entirely.  

 

Point #3 of what you quoted, are these "jumbo heads" specifically talking about drivers or are we including super game improvement iron designs as well?  if it includes the latter then those are designs built to help super high handicap players get the ball on the club face and secondly get it air borne after contact no?

 

 

I think we need to add something to the list to include "increased distance with irons is important," with the caveat that it is important only as much as it is needed to fill a gap at the top end of the bag between your longest iron and next wood or hybrid or driver.

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6 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

I played in a league for years with guys that age who were scratch or even a little worse often. They all hit it further than 235. 

 

Again I really don't think you guys understand what outliers mean. You can be a NBA point guard and be a poor shooter, you just have to have some other excellent attributes to make up for it. However most NBA point guards aren't poor shooters. 

I play with guys like that every week,  agree they are all 250+ (with the plus guys 280+). The guys who do hit it 235 simply aren't scratch. Heck the USGA assumes a scratch golfer drives it 250 for their slope/rating calculations. I'm really not sure why these folks are hung up on these outliers.

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10 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

If you want to hear every overrated belief / myth prevalent in the 1980’s in the USA, step on any lesson tee in Australia. It’s quite unbelievable how bad instruction is here.

 

Today I happened to be at a popular facility and overheard the head instructor telling an older guy “in golf, speed is all in the hips, not the arms and hands. How fast you rotate your body is how far you hit it”. This poor ~70 year old was trying to move his hips like Rory while bunting out little 100 yard dribblers with noodle arms, ugh

 

I thought everyone was locked down downunder aka back to the convict days - back to gaol, son 😜

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5 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

 

As I said earlier in the thread, two players of very similar handicap...the shorter hitter (let's say 230 yards vs. 270 yards) will very likely be the much better putter in order to play to that handicap.

 

Longer players hit the ball the more likely they will have shorter length birdie putts on average on the par-4's and par-5's.  Thus they can have inferior skills with the putter, but *sink* more putts due to having easier putts to make due to the shorter length of those putts.

 

As far as analytics and execution go....analytics can't physically make a player execute better.  But good analytics can show where the player has 'market inefficiencies' of their own.  

 

The first 7 Tour pros I worked with all told me the same thing about how they wanted to be one of the best wedge players on the Tour.  Come to find out, 3 of them were right up there and 1 of them was actually the second best on Tour from 75-125 yards over the past 5 years.  Despite their great play from that distance, they still didn't know that they were that good from there.

 

But even the weak players from 75-125 yards would benefit by improving from 175-225 yards.  There's more shots from that distance on Tour and those shots play a larger role in a player's score.  

 

Time is their most valuable resource and if they were to continue to doggedly practice wedge shots and neglect their play from 175-225 yards they wouldn't be getting the most bang for their buck.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

You're last 2 posts are awesome...

 

I've always called it the "1st shot at the flag".  I think that's what you're saying too...  You can be 20 yards left or right in fairway with driver.... so semi accurate with driver BUT now with your 2nd shot it's your first attempt to make the ball in the cup so the "real" game of pin point accuracy has started...... or being able to take advantage of pin point accuracy.  If you hit the perfect drive as we all do sometimes the good score is not in the bag but if the 1st shot at the flag is near perfect more then likely gonna be a good hole...

 

So now that you had a little leniency with Driver its all business from now on and you need to get that long or short 2nd shot as close as possible to cup to make putting even easier.... I'm sure Broadie calls it something other then 1st shot at the flag as I haven't read his book lol...

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I try and like my own posts but can't figure out how...

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52 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

I play with guys like that every week,  agree they are all 250+ (with the plus guys 280+). The guys who do hit it 235 simply aren't scratch. Heck the USGA assumes a scratch golfer drives it 250 for their slope/rating calculations. I'm really not sure why these folks are hung up on these outliers.

Probably because those 'non-outlier' play it smart by teeing it up on the tips, so far enough to underdrive the 250yds-ish fairway bunkers and thus enabling their elite ball-striking from 210yds to drop it on 15ft away... looks like another birdie opportunity to me Johnny!

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1) Don't miss a putt short

2) Aiming at the flag rather than the back/middle of greens (in most situations)

3) I need a new $500 driver instead of lessons

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21 minutes ago, dsmil said:

1) Don't miss a putt short

2) Aiming at the flag rather than the back/middle of greens (in most situations)

3) I need a new $500 driver instead of lessons

 

All good ones which definitely meet the OP criteria of overrated.

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6 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Probably because those 'non-outlier' play it smart by teeing it up on the tips, so far enough to underdrive the 250yds-ish fairway bunkers and thus enabling their elite ball-striking from 210yds to drop it on 15ft away... looks like another birdie opportunity to me Johnny!

pga tour pros from 210 are averaging  like 40ish feet from there and they all hit the ball way further than that. If you're hitting your 3 wood into a green, I mean there are a lot of courses where tournaments are held where you just have no chance. its hard to hold a green with a wedge sometimes, let alone a 210 3 wood. 

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I am watching the Golf Channel's coverage of the USGA Junior Amateur semi-final matches and seeing lots of iron, hybrids, and fairway woods from from the tee boxes, but very few driver shots. 

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