Any loopholes to the inability to post solo rounds?

[dubbelbogey]

Let's be clear - you don't need anyone to sign off on a score. You don't need anyone to attest.

 

The only requirement is that somebody is there when you play. It can be a friend, a spouse, and, I think, even a child. Fido probably doesn't qualify.

 

 

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

 

The majority of those the keep handicaps play some version of 'club golf'. Either at a private club, or as part of club with in a public course. Given this, golfers you typically play with do have some level of interest in your score. If there are anomalies it does get noticed.

 

I liked the R&A system better where only competitive rounds counted. It worked in the UK as the golf culture is a bit different with very regular events.

 

At-least having you play with someone else is a step in a better directions. 

 

 

Golf is supposed to be a game of integrity and sportsmanship.  Guys who want to sandbag are going to sandbag regardless of the system.  Not allowing solo rounds is not stopping anyone from sandbagging.  LOL instead of a 'step in better directions' I see it as more of a slap in the face to honest golfers who happen to play a lot of solo rounds which is something that I used to do early in the morning before work.  But in the end I don't really care one way or another as at this point in my life I am not one who plays very many solo rounds.  

 

On subject of sandbagging I have seen guys win a lot of dots shooting a low round and then 'forget' to post their score on more than one occasion.  I sometimes look at their posted scores and they are all the same score within a couple of strokes which is often the sign of someone who does not want their handicap to get 'too low'. 

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

Golf is supposed to be a game of integrity and sportsmanship.  Guys who want to sandbag are going to sandbag regardless of the system.  Not allowing solo rounds is not stopping anyone from sandbagging.  LOL instead of a 'step in better directions' I see it as more of a slap in the face to honest golfers who happen to play a lot of solo rounds which is something that I used to do early in the morning before work.  But in the end I don't really care one way or another as at this point in my life I am not one who plays very many solo rounds.  

 

On subject of sandbagging I have seen guys win a lot of dots shooting a low round and then 'forget' to post their score on more than one occasion.  I sometimes look at their posted scores and they are all the same score within a couple of strokes which is often the sign of someone who does not want their handicap to get 'too low'. 

 

Like I say the old R&A system was the best as it only took in competitive scores. Playing under that system, I got into the mindset of other rounds were practice (including solo).

 

I still only think of solo rounds as just practice on the course, and could never see getting interested enough to play them as a real rounds of golf. 

 

As for golf being a game of integrity and sportsmanship, it also game played with others.  

Edited July 3, 2021 by 2bGood

[rooski]

The big man in the sky witnesses all your shots, good enough of a second player for me!

 

He also knows when you cheat or sandbag, so that's also something to keep in mind

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

 

Like I say the old R&A system was the best as it only took in competitive scores. Playing under that system, I got into the mindset of other rounds were practice (including solo).

 

I still only think of solo rounds as just practice on the course, and could never see getting interested enough to play them as a real rounds of golf. 

 

As for golf being a game of integrity and sportsmanship, it also game played with others.  

Yeah, except that I know a number of folks who like to keep a handicap and have no interest in playing in tournaments.  Also a lot of guys that I know play for enough money to put some pressure on every time out and they definitely want everyone's handicap stay more current then playing a couple of tournaments a month will keep it.  LOL it might pay for them to play poorly in tournament rounds and clean up every day... 

 

Interesting that you played under the R&A system.  How many tournament rounds were you playing a month?  Did the system keep up with new golfers who were improving rapidly?  I can see where somebody playing a couple of competitive rounds a week could game the system and set themselves up for a big win or something...  In the end if everyone is honest any system will work pretty well.  LOL I think that the best handicap system ever was when Old Tom Morris told golfers how many strokes they were getting before they teed off for their round.  From what I remember reading pretty much every match was fair.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Nels55
typo

[Newby]

6 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

Like I say the old R&A system was the best as it only took in competitive scores. Playing under that system, I got into the mindset of other rounds were practice (including solo).

 

I still only think of solo rounds as just practice on the course, and could never see getting interested enough to play them as a real rounds of golf. 

 

As for golf being a game of integrity and sportsmanship, it also game played with others.  

The RA& didn't have a handicap system. They had never been involved in handicapping until the joint venture into WHS with the USGA.

I think you are confusing it with the CONGU system used in the UK & Ireland and the similar system running in continental Europe (EGA).

However there was a facility in both systems to enter non-competition scores (Supplementary Scores or Extra Day Scores) provided the round was accompanied and attested by a marker and played strictly under the RoG. This is still a requirement of the non-USGA versions of WHS.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Newby

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

Yeah, except that I know a number of folks who like to keep a handicap and have no interest in playing in tournaments.  Also a lot of guys that I know play for enough money to put some pressure on every time out and they definitely want everyone's handicap stay more current then playing a couple of tournaments a month will keep it.  LOL it might pay for them to play poorly in tournament rounds and clean up every day... 

 

Interesting that you played under the R&A system.  How many tournament rounds were you playing a month?  Did the system keep up with new golfers who were improving rapidly?  I can see where somebody playing a couple of competitive rounds a week could game the system and set themselves up for a big win or something...  In the end if everyone is honest any system will work pretty well.  LOL I think that the best handicap system ever was when Old Tom Morris told golfers how many strokes they were getting before they teed off for their round.  From what I remember reading pretty much every match was fair.

You can still play by simply agreeing strokes with your opponent on the first tee. Lots of matches played that way every day.
 

Having a USGA handicap is only needed if your opponent insists. Or to play in events that require it.
 

[ezpz]

I'd just call your handicaping committee or whoever is preventing you from participating in events, tell them your golfing history and your issue and ask them for a resolution. In the current system handicaps mean very little anymore. When even lower caps can just register their score after a random 9 hole round does anyone even care anymore? I've seen people register scores from matchplay rounds where they played well for 15 holes, won and just register it as a 15 hole round......

[davep043]

11 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I wonder what the thinking in the rest of the world is behind not allowing solo rounds?

This is pretty simple to me.  The primary reason to have a handicap system is to allow players of different levels of ability to compete against one another on a reasonably even basis.  Competition means playing against someone, or with someone.  Why should rounds played by yourself factor into the handicap which will only ever be used when you're playing with someone else?  

8 hours ago, Nels55 said:

On subject of sandbagging I have seen guys win a lot of dots shooting a low round and then 'forget' to post their score on more than one occasion. 

And this is where the idea of "peer review" comes in.  We all have the ability to post a score on our phone right now, there's no excuse if you don't encourage (force, shame, whatever) these players to post their score before they collect their winnings.

[jimbo123]

24 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This is pretty simple to me.  The primary reason to have a handicap system is to allow players of different levels of ability to compete against one another on a reasonably even basis.  Competition means playing against someone, or with someone.  Why should rounds played by yourself factor into the handicap which will only ever be used when you're playing with someone else?  

 

 

That seems fairly convincing to me as an argument for only counting competition rounds for handicap, but not so much for the current system?  As people have pointed out, a non-playing friend could count as a marker under the current rules. Playing solo with someone walking alongside seems a lot like playing fully solo, and not much at all like competing.   Seems to me like the only argument for the exact current rule is some kind of distrust of solo scores.    

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by jimbo123

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

 

That seems fairly convincing to me as an argument for only counting competition rounds for handicap, but not so much for the current system?  As people have pointed out, a non-playing friend could count as a marker under the current rules. Playing solo with someone walking alongside seems a lot like playing fully solo, and not much at all like competing.   Seems to me like the only argument for the exact current rule is some kind of distrust of solo scores.    

I'd suggest that the current rule is probably a first transition step from the pre-2016 Rules, where we under the USGA posted everything, to a more unified system.  I anticipate (based on nothing more than my own opinion) that the WHS will continue to evolve towards more restrictions for USGA players, and fewer restrictions for the remainder of the world, bringing us all closer to each other.

[mcounci2]

If I didn't post solo rounds I wouldn't have a handicap. I probably end up with a higher index than I would if I played with other people for every round- pressure and competition make me consider shots for longer times, line up putts better, etc. Might be cheating, but we do this mostly for fun so I don't care. If you're in a position where your handicap has large implications, I could see it mattering then. 

 

But yeah, OP- if everybody is teeing off as a single, go ask somebody on the first tee to play

[bcski]

Simples answer is to play some rounds at the local muni.  They will pair you up and you can post your scores.  Scores don't need to be from the course you will be playing completion on.

 

Rules of Handicapping FAQs

Fundamentals of Handicapping

Q. How many scores do I have to post before I get a Handicap Index?

A. In order to establish a Handicap Index, a total of 54 holes must be played and posted to your scoring record. These scores can be made up of any combination of 9- or 18-hole rounds. 9-hole scores are combined in the order that they are received to form 18-hole Score Differentials that are used to calculate your Handicap Index. Once you have posted a total of three 18-hole Score Differentials, a Handicap Index will be issued to you the very next day. (Rule 4.5, Rules of Handicapping)

[Pepperturbo]

19 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

IMO you aren’t taking it seriously enough. Discussing a round with a pro after it is completed does not meet the qualifications process of playing WITH someone. 

I understand the ROG and play by them.  But there are times when certain rules are unrealistic and this is one of those cases.   If all someone wants is to build an index, there's no reason to make it impossible for him to do that, especially when a club pro can help.  The pro at my last club was acquainted with darn near all members, so could identify the likelihood of someone cheating by scores on certain holes that were unlikely.  That was one manner in which sandbaggers were discovered.  Even though members could post their own scores, we had a club rule where every member had to turn in their scorecard after 18, so the pro could audit.

 

The other odd thing is exchanging scorecards with playing partners.  Never in all my years of club events did anyone actually challenge what someone took on a hole.  I could have cheated rather easily even with someone else holding my card.  And if we're going to be anal about ROG all the little popup fly-by-night traveling golf leagues should not be allowed to handicap themselves.  But those are topics for another time.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Newby]

11 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

Like I say the old R&A system was the best as it only took in competitive scores.  

Assuming you meant the CONGU system, supplementary scores (ie none competition) scores have been permitted (in fact encouraged) for many years now, providing they were pre-declared and appropriately testified/marked.

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

I understand the ROG and play by them.  But there are times when certain rules are unrealistic and this is one of those cases.  

 

No doubt you respect your own thinking.  But having individuals determine what is and isn’t realistic is a truly unhealthy idea.

 

(BTW, we are not discussing the Rules of Golf, merely handicapping rules, which are independent of the ROG and unlike the ROG differ from country to country.)

[caniac6]

I joined a club last Sept., and I didn't know anybody. I saw a guy playing as a single, and just signed up to play with him. We now play every week. I'll talk to a lamp post, so I've met a group that plays twice a week, and I play with those guys, as well.

[2bGood]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

Assuming you meant the CONGU system, supplementary scores (ie none competition) scores have been permitted (in fact encouraged) for many years now, providing they were pre-declared and appropriately testified/marked.

It has been a long time since I lived in the UK

[2bGood]

9 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

The other odd thing is exchanging scorecards with playing partners.  Never in all my years of club events did anyone actually challenge what someone took on a hole.  I could have cheated rather easily even with someone else holding my card.  

 

I find this very odd. When I am score keeping for someone it is extremely rare that I would not know what they scored on a hole and if they were to declare a score that did not agree with my count I would ask to go over the shots to make sure the score is accurate. 

 

Perhaps no one ever challenged you as the score you gave was correct not because they were not paying attention.😀

Edited July 4, 2021 by 2bGood

[SC-TX 88]

This is the dumbest rule. Golf is a game of integrity in which we call penalties on ourselves yet we are not trusted to post solo scores?  It’s not like our playing partners are watching us input the scores.  I get the whole sandbagging issue, but this is not a way to resolve it.  

[Sawgrass]

23 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

This is the dumbest rule. Golf is a game of integrity in which we call penalties on ourselves yet we are not trusted to post solo scores?  It’s not like our playing partners are watching us input the scores.  I get the whole sandbagging issue, but this is not a way to resolve it.  

Just because the rules demand integrity doesn’t mean every player provides it.  As a result there are penalties for deliberately violating the rules. 
 

And peer review is a long-standing part of the handicap system. What had been “dumb” (if you must use that word) was expecting peer review when players could post a round nobody on earth even saw.

[sui generis]

27 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

This is the dumbest rule. Golf is a game of integrity in which we call penalties on ourselves yet we are not trusted to post solo scores?  It’s not like our playing partners are watching us input the scores.  I get the whole sandbagging issue, but this is not a way to resolve it.  

 

Your fly is unzipped. 🙄

[rogolf]

41 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

This is the dumbest rule. Golf is a game of integrity in which we call penalties on ourselves yet we are not trusted to post solo scores?  It’s not like our playing partners are watching us input the scores.  I get the whole sandbagging issue, but this is not a way to resolve it.  

Let's recognize that this a a "Rule of handicapping" and not a Rule of golf - so please assign the "dumb" and apparent disdain to the correct location!

[LCP]

There is or was a rule that if you played an excessive number of solo rounds that the handicap committee was supposed to make an adjustment to your handicap to reflect your true handicap as a result.  Well, what would that be??? What you shot playing by yourself.

 

I, like many others, posted all of my serious solo rounds during the pandemic (which was probably about 2/3rds of my rounds).  I, and most people I play with, still post a serious solo round most of the time (and I do nearly always if that's my only round of the week (I average close to two rounds a week for the year in my handicap)).  I'd suspect my solo rounds are about a stroke better on average then my group rounds to be honest.  Most solo rounds end up with multiple balls being hit though (either as extra practice shots or usually just playing two balls) so in that regard it's really not appropriate if you think about it.

 

My club calls out golfers who don't report 80% of their rounds (based on the record of their number of tee offs). Those don't check if you played with someone or not.

Edited July 4, 2021 by LCP

[rogolf]

While I enjoy playing solo rounds because of the opportunity to hit multiple shots, try different things, retake putts etc, solo rounds, regardless of the player's honesty and integrity, are not to be posted for handicap purposes - dead stop.

Many rules are not popular, and this rule of handicapping is probably one of them (btw, I didn't make the rule; I just follow it).

Edited July 4, 2021 by rogolf

[jimbo123]

One thing I don't see recognised much is that for lots of people, achieving a low handicap is a goal, a sign of the progress you're making, and a fun way to make a non-competition round mean something.  Knowing you're posting for handicap is a motivator to play it down by the rules.  I think it's a shame that honest solo players don't get to enjoy those benefits because of all the focus on sandbaggers; in that sense I find this rule to be a bit exclusive.  

 

I totally get the point that the primary purpose for handicaps is to regulate competition.  It just seems a shame that having developed such great machinery for rating players, those tools can't be used to encourage rules-based play as widely as possible (for instance, maybe there could be competition vs non-competition handicaps).  

[North Butte]

58 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

One thing I don't see recognised much is that for lots of people, achieving a low handicap is a goal, a sign of the progress you're making, and a fun way to make a non-competition round mean something.  Knowing you're posting for handicap is a motivator to play it down by the rules.  I think it's a shame that honest solo players don't get to enjoy those benefits because of all the focus on sandbaggers; in that sense I find this rule to be a bit exclusive.  

 

I totally get the point that the primary purpose for handicaps is to regulate competition.  It just seems a shame that having developed such great machinery for rating players, those tools can't be used to encourage rules-based play as widely as possible (for instance, maybe there could be competition vs non-competition handicaps).  

A handicap index is actually not a very good way to analyze your golf game. If you wanted to track the state of your game, for starters you surely would not completely discard 60% of your scores! Your mediocre and bad rounds tell you more about your game than the good ones do. 
 

in other words, used as a “sign of progress” the handicap formula flatters the golfer by reflecting only unusually good play. It is designed from the ground up ONLY to gives players of unequal ability an equal chance of winning a handicapped game or match. Use a tool designed for game improvement if you want to improve your game. 

[jimbo123]

14 minutes ago, North Butte said:

A handicap index is actually not a very good way to analyze your golf game. If you wanted to track the state of your game, for starters you surely would not completely discard 60% of your scores! Your mediocre and bad rounds tell you more about your game than the good ones do. 
 

in other words, used as a “sign of progress” the handicap formula flatters the golfer by reflecting only unusually good play. It is designed from the ground up ONLY to gives players of unequal ability an equal chance of winning a handicapped game or match. Use a tool designed for game improvement if you want to improve your game. 

Agreed it’s useless as a diagnostic tool, that’s pretty distinct from what I was trying to say. 

[2bGood]

5 hours ago, SC-TX 88 said:

This is the dumbest rule. Golf is a game of integrity in which we call penalties on ourselves yet we are not trusted to post solo scores?  It’s not like our playing partners are watching us input the scores.  I get the whole sandbagging issue, but this is not a way to resolve it.  

 

For there record your playing partners are watching you input scores. This is part of the role of your handicap committee and fellow players as peer review is listed as fundamental part of the handicap system. Each players who holds a handicap has the following responsibilities:

 

i)

PlayerA player is expected to:   Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole, Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after the round is completed and before midnight local time, Submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability, Play by the Rules of Golf, and Certify the scores of fellow players.

 

1 hour ago, jimbo123 said:

One thing I don't see recognised much is that for lots of people, achieving a low handicap is a goal, a sign of the progress you're making, and a fun way to make a non-competition round mean something.  Knowing you're posting for handicap is a motivator to play it down by the rules.  I think it's a shame that honest solo players don't get to enjoy those benefits because of all the focus on sandbaggers; in that sense I find this rule to be a bit exclusive.  

 

I totally get the point that the primary purpose for handicaps is to regulate competition.  It just seems a shame that having developed such great machinery for rating players, those tools can't be used to encourage rules-based play as widely as possible (for instance, maybe there could be competition vs non-competition handicaps).  

Actually part of the peer review process is to see if handicaps are accurate, not just to find "sandbaggers". Hollywood handicaps have their own special challenges and I seen plenty of times we had to adjust a players handicap higher or refuse them entry to team events.

 

Your idea of competitive cap v non-competitive one is interesting one that in same was has been touched on in previous systems.

[Augster]

17 hours ago, mcounci2 said:

If I didn't post solo rounds I wouldn't have a handicap. 

I’d say by posting solo rounds you DON’T have a handicap. At least, a legitimate one. A doctored index is the same as no index at all.