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Any loopholes to the inability to post solo rounds?


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How is the handicap system meant to be credible and accurate if you can post scores from social rounds with your buddies or even by yourself? Most of these rounds wouldnt be played properly according to the exact rules of golf surely. Its diabolical how this can happen in certain countries even with another person signing it off. To think posting solo rounds is appropriate is pretty disturbing. 
 

The power of capitalism - profits can be made by allowing this, so it happens (eg: paid apps like The Grint for example).
 

Down here is Aus its formal competition rounds only that count towards handicap. You get a card from the pro shop, fill it in, have it signed by your marker, run it through the computer scanner, submit it to the pro shop at the end of the round and your handicap updates on the Golf Australia website. If you dont enter your card then your lowest score counts again. Everyone plays off the same tees for the competition under the same conditions. In groups of 4 where everyone ensures the rules of golf are followed (Ive seen disqualifications for rule breeches). And nearly everyday there is a competition to enter at most private clubs - plenty of opportunities to play carded rounds

 

Edited by Wormkiller
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27 minutes ago, Wormkiller said:

How is the handicap system meant to be credible and accurate if you can post scores from social rounds with your buddies or even by yourself? Most of these rounds wouldnt be played properly according to the exact rules of golf surely. Its diabolical how this can happen in certain countries even with another person signing it off. To think posting solo rounds is appropriate is pretty disturbing. 
 

The power of capitalism - profits can be made by allowing this, so it happens (eg: paid apps like The Grint for example).
 

Down here is Aus its formal competition rounds only that count towards handicap. You get a card from the pro shop, fill it in, have it signed by your marker, run it through the computer scanner, submit it to the pro shop at the end of the round and your handicap updates on the Golf Australia website. If you dont enter your card then your lowest score counts again. Everyone plays off the same tees for the competition under the same conditions. In groups of 4 where everyone ensures the rules of golf are followed (Ive seen disqualifications for rule breeches). And nearly everyday there is a competition to enter at most private clubs - plenty of opportunities to play carded rounds

 

 

Yeah, well you drive on the wrong side of the road and your beer is way too fizzy! 😉

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I don’t feel like quoting some of the replies so I’ll leave this here:  Who has ever had their playing partner watch them take out their iPhone after a round and input their score into the USGA GHIN app?

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3 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

I don’t feel like quoting some of the replies so I’ll leave this here:  Who has ever had their playing partner watch them take out their iPhone after a round and input their score into the USGA GHIN app?

Haven't done the above, but have later checked to see that a score was entered and what it was - a form of peer review.

Edited by rogolf
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8 hours ago, Augster said:

I’d say by posting solo rounds you DON’T have a handicap. At least, a legitimate one. A doctored index is the same as no index at all. 

I’m not one for Internet arguing, but I’m sorry that’s just trash. If a person doesn’t have their word, they’ve got nothing.  
 

With that said, I think handicaps are pointless in the first place. In what other sport if you challenge someone heads up do you have to give someone a head start because they aren’t as good as you?  Work harder and get better or lose, should be as simple as that. 

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1 minute ago, rogolf said:

Haven't done the above, but have later checked to see that a score was entered and what it was - a form of peer review.

Okay and what’s the recourse if they lied?  What about if your just paired up with someone on the first tee you don’t know?  I get what your saying, but trying to play devils advocate here. 

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5 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

Okay and what’s the recourse if they lied?  What about if your just paired up with someone on the first tee you don’t know?  I get what your saying, but trying to play devils advocate here. 

As you say that handicaps are pointless, what’s your point?

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1 minute ago, Sawgrass said:

As you say that handicaps are pointless, what’s your point?

My point was if you checked it after the fact and they lied, what difference does it make if you can’t go back and change it. Effectively they played solo if you did not watch them input the score and audit it, no?

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1 minute ago, SC-TX 88 said:

My point was if you checked it after the fact and they lied, what difference does it make if you can’t go back and change it. Effectively they played solo if you did not watch them input the score and audit it, no?

No.  
 

Simply make a complaint to your handicap chair, and have him/her sort it out. Punitive measures are taken all the time, and even if a handicap adjustment is not made, a player who knows he has been investigated might well change his ways for fear of developing a reputation. 

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Just now, Sawgrass said:

No.  
 

Simply make a complaint to your handicap chair, and have him/her sort it out. Punitive measures are taken all the time, and even if a handicap adjustment is not made, a player who knows he has been investigated might well change his ways for fear of developing a reputation. 
 

 

My point all along has been you have integrity or not.  That person is always going to be a cheater, golf brings out a persons true persona like none other. 

 

In this example you caught a cheater AFTER the fact, and because you presumably belong to a club you can action it.  If you were randomly paired up on the first tee and don’t know them, how do you retroactively audit?  It’s rhetorical, no need to answer just trying to get across even when playing with others most of the time no audit is ever going to happen, but because you did not play solo you can post that round. 

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15 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

Okay and what’s the recourse if they lied?  What about if your just paired up with someone on the first tee you don’t know?  I get what your saying, but trying to play devils advocate here. 

The recourse is report it to the handicap committee. It should be pretty simple to do. If there is a good handicap chair/committee in place they will take some form of action. 

 

Typically when I have been on HC's a first report will result in some education for the player and then if more action is required section 9 of the Committee Guide Handicap Committee Guide lays out other options if the committee deems them necessary including penalty scores or adjustments and even withdrawing their handicap. 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

My point all along has been you have integrity or not.  That person is always going to be a cheater, golf brings out a persons true persona like none other. 

 

In this example you caught a cheater AFTER the fact, and because you presumably belong to a club you can action it.  If you were randomly paired up on the first tee and don’t know them, how do you retroactively audit?  It’s rhetorical, no need to answer just trying to get across even when playing with others most of the time no audit is ever going to happen, but because you did not play solo you can post that round. 

Your point is that forcing people to not post solo rounds doesn’t fix everything.  My point is that it can help.

 

 You have said that handicaps are pointless.  I accept that for you, they are.  But given that, our debate is even more pointless. 

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22 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Your point is that forcing people to not post solo rounds doesn’t fix everything.  My point is that it can help.

 

 You have said that handicaps are pointless.  I accept that for you, they are.  But given that, our debate is even more pointless. 

I have a handicap, I shot my low round of the summer Friday playing with 3 others, nobody has checked my score in GHIN, does it count?

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11 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

My point all along has been you have integrity or not.  That person is always going to be a cheater, golf brings out a persons true persona like none other. 

 

In this example you caught a cheater AFTER the fact, and because you presumably belong to a club you can action it.  If you were randomly paired up on the first tee and don’t know them, how do you retroactively audit?  It’s rhetorical, no need to answer just trying to get across even when playing with others most of the time no audit is ever going to happen, but because you did not play solo you can post that round. 

I think you are missing a key point here. It is not just about integrity. I am not a cheater - far from it. But 3 times in 15 years I have been reported/investigated by a handicap committee. Each time I thanked them for it as I learned something in the process. All were unintentional errors I made (ie posting on the wrong day, calculating max score wrong, not designating a tournament round)

 

As time passed I became HC member and even chair. The vast majority of my work with members was not because they were cheating, but because they either did not know or understand how handicapping worked. When someone reported players to me it typically was not about punitive action but a chance for them to learn more about the system. About 10% of the time I was dealing with someone intentionally trying to manipulate their handicap and once they got on the HC's radar it was easy to shut them down.

 

And yes I have received reports from strangers that have played with a member.

 

I do get that there are some very different golf worlds people live in and for the majority of golfer handicaps are not revenant. 

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26 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

The recourse is report it to the handicap committee. It should be pretty simple to do. If there is a good handicap chair/committee in place they will take some form of action. 

 

Typically when I have been on HC's a first report will result in some education for the player and then if more action is required section 9 of the Committee Guide Handicap Committee Guide lays out other options if the committee deems them necessary including penalty scores or adjustments and even withdrawing their handicap. 

 

 

 

Because you belong to a club (?), which a lot of golfers don’t. I don’t right now because where I live it’s 100k fee if you can even get off the waiting list in the first place.  What I’m asking is, what do you do when their is no committee?

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2 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

I have a handicap, I shot my low round of the summer Friday playing with 3 others, nobody has checked my score in GHIN, does it count?

How do you know that no one checked it? Typically if there is no issue no one ever knows that that peers reviewed their score. 

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Just now, 2bGood said:

How do you know that no one checked it? Typically if there is no issue no one ever knows that that peers reviewed their score. 

Because my buddies are ding dongs when it comes to golf, and probably not even know what the GHIN app is (or ask to see my card)

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14 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

Because you belong to a club (?), which a lot of golfers don’t. I don’t right now because where I live it’s 100k fee if you can even get off the waiting list in the first place.  What I’m asking is, what do you do when their is no committee?

Given this a world wide forum I can't speak for every region. But where I am you must be part of a club to have an official handicap and every club needs a handicap committee. When I say 'club' I don't mean a private golf course course as many public courses have club's you can join and our national association also offers a public players club that you can join (that has a HC). 

 

So in my region it is impossible on paper to have no committee.

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8 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

Because you belong to a club (?), which a lot of golfers don’t. I don’t right now because where I live it’s 100k fee if you can even get off the waiting list in the first place.  What I’m asking is, what do you do when their is no committee?

Every sanctioned handicap issuing entity has a handicap chair.  

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I have a membership with TheGrint.   I've had it for several years.  I have a current handicap.  None of my playing partners carry a handicap or use TheGrint.   Each round that isn't solo is recorded but none of my rounds are attested.   I won't ask my non-handicap friends to join the app just to attest my score.   Do I have a legit handicap, according to the USGA I do.  

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11 minutes ago, DennyJones said:

I have a membership with TheGrint.   I've had it for several years.  I have a current handicap.  None of my playing partners carry a handicap or use TheGrint.   Each round that isn't solo is recorded but none of my rounds are attested.   I won't ask my non-handicap friends to join the app just to attest my score.   Do I have a legit handicap, according to the USGA I do.  

Has someone here said that the USGA requires that a round be attested?  Because I’d challenge that poster. 

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24 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Given this a world wide forum I can't speak for every region. But where I am you must be part of a club to have an official handicap and every club needs a handicap committee. When I say 'club' I don't mean a private golf course course as many public courses have club's you can join and our national association also offers a public players club that you can join (that has a HC). 

 

So in my region it is impossible on paper to have no committee.

I post through the Texas Golf Association (my “club”) so I’m sure there is a chair, but there are also 120k people signed up through TGA so not sure they would be super helpful with a handicap complaint. 

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7 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Has someone here said that the USGA requires that a round be attested?  Because I’d challenge that poster. 

From the USGA website:

 

Certification of Score

The verification of a player’s score. This can be evidenced in two ways:

  • By a marker’s physical signature or electronic certification, and/or
  • Through peer review.

So if a playing partner or marker does not review your score it doesn’t count towards a handicap, right?

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1 minute ago, SC-TX 88 said:

From the USGA website:

 

Certification of Score

The verification of a player’s score. This can be evidenced in two ways:

  • By a marker’s physical signature or electronic certification, and/or
  • Through peer review.

So if a playing partner or marker does not review your score it doesn’t count towards a handicap, right?

Wrong.

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Just now, Sawgrass said:

Wrong.

Then please tell me how to read what the USGA has published. 

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4 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

Then please tell me how to read what the USGA has published. 

the way I read this, my round from Friday doesn’t count in the USGA’s eyes. 
 

 

A score submitted for handicap purposes must be made available for peer review as soon as possible after completion of the round. To facilitate the process of peer review:


(i) A player, or someone authorized by the player, must submit their score as soon as possible after completion of the round, and

 

(ii)The Handicap Committeeshould ensure a submitted score is posted to the player’s scoring record as soon as possible.

 

4.4/1 – Clarification of Meaning of Peer Review as a Method of Certification of Scores

Peer review is normally conducted by someone:

  • Playing in the same group or who was present during the round, and/or
  • Who is a member of the same golf club as the player.

In all cases, it must be someone who:

  • Has formed a reasonable basis from which to provide support for a score that has been posted or challenge the player on any anomalies in the posted score, or
  • Has knowledge of the player’s demonstrated ability and can reasonably verify or challenge the Handicap Index issued to the player.

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3 minutes ago, SC-TX 88 said:

Then please tell me how to read what the USGA has published. 

It’s possible that you can’t be helped.  As a last resort I’ll point out that your peers choosing not to review your round does not prevent your round from counting. 
 

Why don’t you give it a rest?

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Just now, Sawgrass said:

It’s possible that you can’t be helped.  As a last resort I’ll point out that your peers choosing not to review your round does not prevent your round from counting. 
 

Why don’t you give it a rest?

So what your saying is by posting it I have “made it available.”  Even if NO ONE checks it, it’s fine for posting purposes?  Effectively playing solo.

 

And no, I don’t think I will.  Let’s “grow the game” but making it easier for folks who want to compete. 

 

A score submitted for handicap purposes must be made available for peer review as soon as possible after completion of the round. To facilitate the process of peer review:


(i) A player, or someone authorized by the player, must submit their score as soon as possible after completion of the round, and

 

(ii)The Handicap Committeeshould ensure a submitted score is posted to the player’s scoring record as soon as possible.

 

4.4/1 – Clarification of Meaning of Peer Review as a Method of Certification of Scores

Peer review is normally conducted by someone:

  • Playing in the same group or who was present during the round, and/or
  • Who is a member of the same golf club as the player.

In all cases, it must be someone who:

  • Has formed a reasonable basis from which to provide support for a score that has been posted or challenge the player on any anomalies in the posted score, or
  • Has knowledge of the player’s demonstrated ability and can reasonably verify or challenge the Handicap Index issued to the player.
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      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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