Any loopholes to the inability to post solo rounds?

[2bGood]

5 minutes ago, Superbrit said:

Yeah its similar in the UK, specifically for stableford, but you are given a score (2 over net) you cant basically make up your score

The system I am under is a max of net double bogie or most likely score. 

 

The majority of my non event golf is Match Play so most likely score does come in to play from time to time.

[Superbrit]

2 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I don’t think it’s accurate that you have that choice within five feet, irrespective of break, as noted in the below chart from Section 3.3.  I do know though, that if there’s no local rule preventing it or if you’re not helping a partner by doing so, you have the option to putt the previously conceded stroke and count it as you play it.

 

Most likely scores should be determined on any hole in accordance with the following guidelines:

Position of the Ball Strokes to be Added If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole: Add one additional stroke. If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole: Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player. If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole: Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player. (See Diagram 3.3.)

 

This reminds me of the TXG guys playing simulator golf and it automatically gives them the putt from 5ft and in, and who measures that its 5ft anyway? seems daft to me

[Superbrit]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

The system I am under is a max of net double bogie or most likely score. 

 

The majority of my non event golf is Match Play so most likely score does come in to play from time to time.

The system YOU are under? do you have different systems in the US?

[Bonneville85308]

 

I would NOT just go ahead and post solo scores if I were planning on playing in the competitive club tournaments. If you win or place high and the regulars don't really know you, someone on the golf or handicap committee may decide to cross-reference your score postings with the club's past tee sheets and find out what you did. I've been at clubs where they did this regularly to figure out who played with other people but didn't post a score; the idea being that sandbaggers wouldn't post their low rounds if they could avoid it.

 

If you want to establish a handicap that will not be scrutinized when playing in a club tournament, I would suggest just flat out telling your club pro your dilemma and asking if he can hook you up to play with other people who perhaps are also new and are having trouble finding people to play with also. You can't be the only new-ish member in this club who doesn't know anyone else to play with.

 

Personally, I post solo scores myself so long as I played by the rules. I don't play in any tournaments whatsoever, though, just not my thing.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Bonneville85308

[Sawgrass]

13 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Interesting.  I have never seen that table.  In the handicap manual?

Yes, section 3.3. It wasn’t that way prior to 2020, but that’s current.

 

I find it a bit of relief, it’s hard for me to predict a 5’ putt, flat or not.  And if it ends up lowering my posted score a bit, I’m fine with that!

[2bGood]

13 minutes ago, Superbrit said:

The system YOU are under? do you have different systems in the US?

Who said I was in the US?

[ThinkingPlus]

13 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Yes, section 3.3. It wasn’t that way prior to 2020, but that’s current.

 

I find it a bit of relief, it’s hard for me to predict a 5’ putt, flat or not.  And if it ends up lowering my posted score a bit, I’m fine with that!

I play so very little match play that I probably never looked at that section in any depth.  Thanks for the info.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Superbrit said:

im sorry but thats just crazy

 

Crazy? You want crazy, how about you drive on the wrong side of the road and your beer's warm and flat. That's crazy. 😉

[rogolf]

19 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Who said I was in the US?

And "we" are part of and operate within the WHS.

[Sawgrass]

11 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I play so very little match play that I probably never looked at that section in any depth.  Thanks for the info.

Always happy to exchange information with civil people . . . even if they could crush me in a match!

[davep043]

52 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I don’t think it’s accurate that you have that choice within five feet, irrespective of break, as noted in the below chart from Section 3.3.  I do know though, that if there’s no local rule preventing it or if you’re not helping a partner by doing so, you have the option to putt the previously conceded stroke and count it as you play it.

 

Most likely scores should be determined on any hole in accordance with the following guidelines:

Position of the Ball Strokes to be Added If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole: Add one additional stroke. If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole: Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player. If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole: Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player. (See Diagram 3.3.)

 

Just a little chuckle on this, I really studied the differences between should/may versus shall/must for my RoG exam, and I know you understand the distinction.  The same distinction may apply here, where we should follow the guidelines.  I generally putt out if I'm not holding up play, and usually count 5 footers as a single putt if I can't. But there are some rare situations where 2 putts might be more likely.

[Sawgrass]

8 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Just a little chuckle on this, I really studied the differences between should/may versus shall/must for my RoG exam, and I know you understand the distinction.  The same distinction may apply here, where we should follow the guidelines.  I generally putt out if I'm not holding up play, and usually count 5 footers as a single putt if I can't. But there are some rare situations where 2 putts might be more likely.

Hmmm . . . As I ponder your observation, I note that “shoulds” in the rules themselves seem to be associated with coming to the same result without going through the prescribed process. (At least sometimes, perhaps always.)

 

I’m not sure that this Handicap Manual “should” can be viewed in the same way . ..

[Nachosgrande]

6 hours ago, Superbrit said:

Handicaps are there so golfers can compete with each other on a level playing field in competition, so it would make sense your handicap has been acquired in competitive golf, sorry but solo rounds shouldn't be included in that, its just not the same (my many years of playing with people all over world in St Andrews will attest to that)

 

Where I live you can't even play in tournaments without a handicap, so it's a catch 22.

[ThinkingPlus]

27 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Always happy to exchange information with civil people . . . even if they could crush me in a match!

Probably not if it's a net match and maybe not at all.  My index is women's so add 5 - 6 strokes.  That makes me a 4.5 or so men's index.  Not all that intimidating by WRX standards.

[Sawgrass]

8 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Probably not if it's a net match and maybe not at all.  My index is women's so add 5 - 6 strokes.  That makes me a 4.5 or so men's index.  Not all that intimidating by WRX standards.

I reserve the right to be intimidated. 

[jvincent]

I don't know if our club is weird but we play all the formats pretty regularly.

 

- Men's night is stableford (net and gross).

- Most of the money/weekend games are match play (net).

- We have several stroke play tournaments throughout the season.

 

One thing that we do which takes a lot of grief out is that we use Golf Genius for our leagues and since they are 9-hole we use a dedicated league handicap for the league. I know for me it ended up being essentially the same as my RCGA handicap.

 

On a separate topic, I'd argue that the WHS left too much leeway on the local options. For example, I'm in Ontario but our region is actually part of Golf Quebec for historical reasons. We are allowed to post total score in our equivalent of GHIN.

 

Folks in Toronto are part of Golf Ontario. Apparently they are required to post hole by hole scores for handicapping purposes. Weird.

[Mudguard]

7 hours ago, RCGA said:

Bob has a day job and young family and has been playing golf at a public course for a few years. He joins a private club so he can play more, get a handicap and enter competitions. 

 

For the most part, Bob can only play after 6pm. At that time, the course is basically empty and anyone teeing off is playing solo by preference. To Bob's surprise, none of his solo rounds can count toward his handicap and he wonders "what's the point?".

 

He manages to get away from the wife and kids to play 3 rounds over a long weekend with others in order to obtain an index. He's was paired with golfers who were more interested in finishing the round quickly and doesn't play his best. Some in the group even have the audacity to assume his lag putts to 8" are gimmes.  He's now worried about someone accusing him of being a sandbagger since his official handicap is higher than it ought to be. 

 

Do you know how absurd that sounds?

 

 

This is how nearly the rest of the world does it. This is why my official handicap rounds are between 60-80 rounds per year instead of double that. Nine holes a couple of times mid week in summer don't count. But they are useful for my golf. When is Bob going to play those competitions if he can usually play after 6pm?

5 hours ago, RCGA said:

 

Other than a tournament, I don't think I've ever been in a foursome everyone played the entire round ball-to-hole. 

We hole out virtually every Saturday. Granted we play a lot of stableford rounds (usually have one medal per month) but the two groups I play in are lower handicaps so finishing out isn't an issue. But last Saturday I popped two OB off the tee on a par five. Walked the hole and took my zero points, score goes down as double bogey (actually gets input as a pick up, system works it out for us). 

[Shilgy]

8 hours ago, Superbrit said:

Most likely score?? im sorry but thats just crazy, when we do stableford then it automatically gets put in as 2 over par (net) if you dont finish the hole, so doesnt count, so if your playing match play and player A gets a birdie, player b is 5ft away for par, he can just say its a par?

The disconnect is you do not post your match play scores like we do in the US. 
 

Using your example, if you were able to post those match play scores, if you made a birdie and your opponent had a five foot putt for par do you want him to count it as a double bogey because he picked up?

Now that would be daft!

[rogolf]

8 hours ago, Superbrit said:

The system YOU are under? do you have different systems in the US?

Below is a quote from England Golf's Guidance document for WHS.  So, Most Likely Score is not unknown to their system.

 

G3.3/1Meaning of Most Likely Score (“MLS”) for Handicap Purposes

Whilst not in general use in GB&I, Ireland are trialling its use so clubs and players should be aware of this provision should they play overseas or in Ireland. The full details are taken from Interpretation 3.3/1 (included in the Rules for jurisdictions that use MLS). Scores returned in match play or four-ball formats are Acceptable Scores in some Jurisdictions. In such situations there is a need for calculating a ‘Most Likely Score’ when a player starts a hole but does not hole out. For example:

•The result of the hole has already been decided,

•A hole has been conceded,

•A player’s partner has already posted a better score in a four-ball format and the player picks up, or

•A player has already reached their net double bogey limit on a specific hole.  When a player starts a hole but does not hole out for a valid reason, subject to other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, the player must record their most likely score or net double bogey, whichever is lower, as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play.

The most likely score is:

The number of strokes already taken to reach a position on a hole, plus any penalty strokes incurred to that point, plus the number of strokes the player would most likely require to complete the hole from that position. Most likely scores should be determined on any hole in accordance with the following guidelines:

Position of the ball, Strokes to be added

If the ball lies on the putting green, no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole: Add one additional stroke.

If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 meters) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole: Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.

Beyond 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole: Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.

There is no limit to the number of most likely scores that can be submitted within a player’s score, provided that the failure to hole out is for a valid reason and not for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage.

 

[bekgolf]

A 5 ft. gimme.  Doesn't sound right.  But now I know.

 

Never been a fan of the gimme.  One of the best sounds in golf is the ball in the cup.

[nsxguy]

11 hours ago, Superbrit said:

Most likely score?? im sorry but thats just crazy, when we do stableford then it automatically gets put in as 2 over par (net) if you dont finish the hole, so doesnt count, so if your playing match play and player A gets a birdie, player b is 5ft away for par, he can just say its a par?

 

As rogolf already posted, apparently you guyz DO have MLS.

 

And suppose a sandbagger has a good round going but somehow (phone ? 2 much better scores in his own group) knows he can't win.

 

So on the last 3 holes, with relatively short par, or even birdie, putts, he just picks up.

 

You're going to give him net double bogies on those holes thereby allowing him to "legitimately" sandbag ?

[2bGood]

46 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

A 5 ft. gimme.  Doesn't sound right.  But now I know.

 

Never been a fan of the gimme.  One of the best sounds in golf is the ball in the cup.

Do you play match play? 

[bekgolf]

9 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Do you play match play? 

Men's club events.  The game is different each week.

 

A better answer would be yes, but not often.  Inside the leather for a scramble I have no problem with.

 

I understand the concept of speeding play, putting the pressure on yourself, etc.  Still though, not a fan of anything gimme except for the 6" tap in putt previously mentioned. 

 

In match play if you've already won the hole it would be pointless to have your opponent putt out.  Was that what you were getting at? 

[2bGood]

Just now, bekgolf said:

In match play if you've already won the hole it would be pointless to have your opponent putt out.  Was that what you were getting at? 

Yes this is what I was getting at. Match play dominates my non-competitive round. If I have a 4 footer and already lost the hole I am going to pick up and move on most of the time. We also have a very active 2 person best ball match play league and in this case it is often solid strategy to pick up and not finish the hole or force an opponent to pick up*. 

 

This is where I find most likely score shines.

 

*Yes I now they can go back and putt after the hole is decided if they like.

[LCP]

For every time you'd miss a 4-5 footer that you gave yourself for your likely handicap score, you'd make an 8-10 footer that you said you'd two-putt for your likely handicap score. It all balances out due to "likely score".

 

Of course, I very rarely would pick up that 8-10 footer, since it usually would be for a birdie or to save par when scrambling.  Unless it was a group skins/match/best ball format where it was a loser no matter what.

[2bGood]

22 minutes ago, LCP said:

For every time you'd miss a 4-5 footer that you gave yourself for your likely handicap score, you'd make an 8-10 footer that you said you'd two-putt for your likely handicap score. It all balances out due to "likely score".

 

Of course, I very rarely would pick up that 8-10 footer, since it usually would be for a birdie or to save par when scrambling.  Unless it was a group skins/match/best ball format where it was a loser no matter what.

It would be interesting to see someone track this out.

 

One thing I know every putt taken or made means nothing in 12/20 rounds for your handicap. So now it is about the 8 counting rounds. The difference between a given putt and a missed put in one of those 8 rounds is .125 to your handicap. Then overlay the sats for making putts between 1 and 5 feet. At the PGA level the stats are below for some rough guidance. Then you have to add in how often you pick up a putt of that distance. Then you have to remove anytime the putt is for something higher than you max score. Even though I play allot of match play when I run the numbers the difference I get is very very unlikely to change my handicap by a stroke and may move my index .1 or .2 .

 

DISTANCE	ONE PUTT	TWO PUTT	THREE PUTTS-Plus	EXPECTED PUTTS AVG.
1 foot	100%	0.0%	0.0%	1.001
2 feet	99%	0.6%	0.1%	1.009
3 feet	95%	5%	0.2%	1.053
4 feet	86%	14%	0.2%	1.147
5 feet	75%	25%	0.3%	1.256

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by 2bGood

[Shilgy]

30 minutes ago, LCP said:

For every time you'd miss a 4-5 footer that you gave yourself for your likely handicap score, you'd make an 8-10 footer that you said you'd two-putt for your likely handicap score. It all balances out due to "likely score".

 

Of course, I very rarely would pick up that 8-10 footer, since it usually would be for a birdie or to save par when scrambling.  Unless it was a group skins/match/best ball format where it was a loser no matter what.

That is really not the reason for the calculation.  And we have discussed it a few times in this forum.   I have been a voice opposed to the USGA logic but it reads this way….

 

 Every putt is it’s own entity.  You are not supposed to look at the holes you picked up on and said something like “I would have made half of those 6 putts so for most likely score I will count 3 as made”.

 

What we are told to do instead is treat each putt as most likely result. If you feel you would have two putted over 50% of the time you count it as a two putt.  
  BUT….if you picked up 4 putts during the round and on each one you believe you would make each at least 51% of the time they all count as made- according to the rules.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

Yes this is what I was getting at. Match play dominates my non-competitive round. If I have a 4 footer and already lost the hole I am going to pick up and move on most of the time. We also have a very active 2 person best ball match play league and in this case it is often solid strategy to pick up and not finish the hole or force an opponent to pick up*. 

 

This is where I find most likely score shines.

 

*Yes I now they can go back and putt after the hole is decided if they like.

And that was how our group played for many years - four ball best ball match play, greatest game there is amongst four players.  Stroke play takes away strategy and partnership - much too individual play, not caring about what any other player is up to.

[Superbrit]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

As rogolf already posted, apparently you guyz DO have MLS.

 

And suppose a sandbagger has a good round going but somehow (phone ? 2 much better scores in his own group) knows he can't win.

 

So on the last 3 holes, with relatively short par, or even birdie, putts, he just picks up.

 

You're going to give him net double bogies on those holes thereby allowing him to "legitimately" sandbag ?

This system actually stops scores of 8,9 & 10 for "sandbaggers", also in the UK (i dont know if its the same in the US) we have 2 x 9 hole scores even when you play 18, so if the "sandbagger" scores say 36 on the front, then mysteriously scores 50 on the back, he will be reduced more for the front than increased for the back

 

As we play weekly competitions in the UK and HC's are generally done through comp scores, we get very few "sandbaggers", in fact i can genuinely say in all the years of playing competitions i have never come across a genuine "sandbagger", by genuine i mean someone who would be +2 after 15 holes and then +10 for the final 3, and the system wouldnt let them do that

[denkea]

19 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Not all that intimidating by WRX standards

Yep.  You're a hack.  (Kidding and envious)