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Any loopholes to the inability to post solo rounds?


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6 hours ago, Superbrit said:

This system actually stops scores of 8,9 & 10 for "sandbaggers", also in the UK (i dont know if its the same in the US) we have 2 x 9 hole scores even when you play 18, so if the "sandbagger" scores say 36 on the front, then mysteriously scores 50 on the back, he will be reduced more for the front than increased for the back

 

As we play weekly competitions in the UK and HC's are generally done through comp scores, we get very few "sandbaggers", in fact i can genuinely say in all the years of playing competitions i have never come across a genuine "sandbagger", by genuine i mean someone who would be +2 after 15 holes and then +10 for the final 3, and the system wouldnt let them do that

 

As far as I know, and I believe WHS is supposed to work this way for ALL countries, an 18 hole score, subject to net double bogey is an 18 hole score/differential. Period.

 

If one enters their score "hole-by-hole" (instead of a single 18 hole or 2 9 holes scores at the same time) the system will adjust any net double bogies automatically but it still records a single 18 hole score/differential.

 

Now I don't know how, or even if, but I expect there's a facility that will "flag" a questionable score, such as the 36/50 score you bring up, for peer/committee review.

 

But I seriously doubt the system will adjust anything by itself (other than NDB IF you enter hole-by-hole).

 

Here in the States GHIN, the "system", computerized of course, lists a single differential for the 18 holes. Since I haven't played only 9 holes since WHS I don't know how that shows up.

 

I'm not sure exactly how it works but I thought I'd read that the system holds a 9 hole score in abeyance until a 2nd 9 hole score is posted and then combines them into a single 18 hole score.

 

I expect someone will come along and clarify. :classic_wink:

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2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

I expect someone will come along and clarify. :classic_wink:

This is how it works in the CONGU world. The USGA combines two separate 9-hole scores.

 

5.1b For a 9-hole Score
A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential for immediate use in the scoring record.
    - A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential by adding net pars for the remaining holes plus one additional stroke (which is
applied to the first hole not played), or 17 points in Stableford format (see Diagram 5.1b/1).    

    - The second 9 holes used for scaling up is always the same 9 holes that have been played.
 

A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential as follows and rounded to the nearest tenth, with .5 rounded upwards:
Score Differential = (113 ÷ Slope Rating) x (adjusted gross score – Course Rating – (0.5 x PCC adjustment))

 

Where:
    - Slope Rating equals the 9-hole Slope Rating of the 9 holes played.

    - Adjusted gross score equals the adjusted gross score for the 9 holes played, plus net pars for the second nine holes plus one additional stroke. It is calculated using the 18-hole Course Handicap, based on the 9 holes played.

    - Course Rating equals the Course Rating of the 9 holes played, doubled.

    - 50% of the playing conditions calculation (PCC) for the day is applied.

Edited by Newby
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23 minutes ago, Newby said:

This is how it works in the CONGU world. The USGA combines two separate 9-hole scores.

 

5.1b For a 9-hole Score
A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential for immediate use in the scoring record.
    - A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential by adding net pars for the remaining holes plus one additional stroke (which is
applied to the first hole not played), or 17 points in Stableford format (see Diagram 5.1b/1).    

    - The second 9 holes used for scaling up is always the same 9 holes that have been played.
 

A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential as follows and rounded to the nearest tenth, with .5 rounded upwards:
Score Differential = (113 ÷ Slope Rating) x (adjusted gross score – Course Rating – (0.5 x PCC adjustment))

 

Where:
    - Slope Rating equals the 9-hole Slope Rating of the 9 holes played.

    - Adjusted gross score equals the adjusted gross score for the 9 holes played, plus net pars for the second nine holes plus one additional stroke. It is calculated using the 18-hole Course Handicap, based on the 9 holes played.

    - Course Rating equals the Course Rating of the 9 holes played, doubled.

    - 50% of the playing conditions calculation (PCC) for the day is applied.

Well it's no wonder now why y'all have such an issue with the USGA posting rules.

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The solo "rule" is a joke. Written by USGA members who have no concept of public golf.

Scenario, which is very common:
I play on Saturday, all by myself. Can't post the score.


On Sunday, I go out solo, get paired with another player. I only know him as "Dave". Dave doesn't know me, I don't know Dave. Dave has no idea what a handicap is, how it's calculated, or anything else regarding the handicap system. Dave also doesn't know what I shot, and isn't paying any attention to my score. But per the rules, I'm allowed to post this score.

Tell me how scenario 2 is more valid than scenario 1? 

 

 

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Just now, larrybud said:

Tell me how scenario 2 is more valid than scenario 1? 

Let's repeat this one more time.  Handicaps are intended to make competition reasonably fair.  Competition means playing with and/or against other people.  Therefore its perfectly logical to count only scores played with other people for handicaps.  If you shoot different scores solo, as compared with when you have someone with you, why should the solo scores count for a number you will only use when you play with someone else?

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Scenario 2 I have no competition. We just happened to be paired up together. The player just happened to be closer to my vicinity than the player in the group in front of me.

With your argument, then we should have separate handicaps when in a 4-some, 3-some and two-some. After all, I may shoot different scores when a different number of people are in my group.

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4 hours ago, larrybud said:

The solo "rule" is a joke. Written by USGA members who have no concept of public golf.

Scenario, which is very common:
I play on Saturday, all by myself. Can't post the score.


On Sunday, I go out solo, get paired with another player. I only know him as "Dave". Dave doesn't know me, I don't know Dave. Dave has no idea what a handicap is, how it's calculated, or anything else regarding the handicap system. Dave also doesn't know what I shot, and isn't paying any attention to my score. But per the rules, I'm allowed to post this score.

Tell me how scenario 2 is more valid than scenario 1? 

 

 

You’ve outlined a particular situation when it doesn’t matter. That’s not important. On other occasions it will. 

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2 hours ago, Newby said:

Does the USGA actually mandate that solo rounds be posted?

Up until about three years ago, they required that every round including solo rounds be posted. Not sure when they started it but that had been the case at least since the 1980's. 

 

Then they changed their rules and now forbid the posting of solo rounds. 

 

That change has been very widely ignored. Then again, the change from ESC to Net Double Bogey has been widely ignored. There are certain memes that, once lodged in the collective mind, become accepted as though they were some sort of universal law of nature. The idea of your handicap being updated every time you set foot on a golf course seems to be one of them. Another is "Put me down for a six" when picking up or making a big number on a Par 4. 

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Fun/frustrating read.  I will add my $0.02.

 

Disclaimer:  I am in the US.

 

While I personally agree the solo rounds should be able to be posted, I respect the rule and don't post.  99% of my rounds with others are match play amongst 4 players.  So while I generally don't consider it a "competition", I guess it is and we are are own committee.  After the round we grab a beer and post our scores.  If one person has a particularly good round we gather and watch him enter the scores and comment "That is going to hurt", and giggle like schoolgirls when we see his index is trending down by .5.  So yes, we actually do some peer review.  We also do reverse peer review and look at the vanity handicaps and hope we play them in the next club fourball tournament.

 

My POV on the very binary posting rules that there cant be a guideline for every situation.  When I play solo I will generally break at least one rule (usually more), theoretically making my score un-postable.  If I chunk an iron i will drop another ball and hit it again and say "the guy behind me is pretty good".  I will play out the hole with the original ball, but I practiced on the course and that is whatever penalty strokes.  When I add up at the end I don't add those penalty strokes, but I also don't post.  Some will say I am cheating myself, but whatever, I don't care.  For the example of a single playing with 3 random hacks, and that round to be postable, I agree it does not make logical sense.  But the guidelines cant consider every situation.  Only post when you play with a minimum of 2 people you have known for 3 years.  Only post when the total number of beers consumed by your marker is less than 7.  Only post when you take a selfie of you and your marker reviewing the GHIN app.  Cant account for every variable or situation.  

 

At the end of the day the decision had to be black and white:  solo rounds - dont post, rounds played with others in accordance of the RoG - post.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, david.c.w said:

Fun/frustrating read.  I will add my $0.02.

 

Disclaimer:  I am in the US.

 

 

 

My POV on the very binary posting rules that there cant be a guideline for every situation.  When I play solo I will generally break at least one rule (usually more), theoretically making my score un-postable.  If I chunk an iron i will drop another ball and hit it again and say "the guy behind me is pretty good".  I will play out the hole with the original ball, but I practiced on the course and that is whatever penalty strokes.  When I add up at the end I don't add those penalty strokes, but I also don't post. 

Yep, same here.  When I play a solo round I almost always end up hitting at least one "practice" shot on the course.  This would make the score ineligible for posting even if it were allowed.  

 

 

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On 7/10/2021 at 4:37 AM, larrybud said:

On Sunday, I go out solo, get paired with another player. I only know him as "Dave". Dave doesn't know me, I don't know Dave. Dave has no idea what a handicap is, how it's calculated, or anything else regarding the handicap system. Dave also doesn't know what I shot, and isn't paying any attention to my score. But per the rules, I'm allowed to post this score.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you just need to get your head round the fact if you are playing with someone else and you're marking their card, you have an obligation to the field and every single other handicap player to count their shots? Dave will learn this if it becomes common. If Dave or anyone else in the group isn't capable or doesn't want to, then you're out of luck. 

 

Don't get me wrong, plenty of times I've gone to write down a par down on the card for the person I'm marking completely forgetting about the first tee shot that went OB. But that's why we watch, and ask if we aren't sure. 

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On 7/9/2021 at 5:38 PM, Sawgrass said:

You’ve outlined a particular situation when it doesn’t matter. That’s not important. On other occasions it will. 

What do you mean it doesn't matter? What part doesn't matter?

 

By the way, all I can assume now is that if the solo now it valid and good, then for 50+ years before that, it was wrong and everybody's handicap was invalid.

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3 minutes ago, larrybud said:

Why would I be marking this stranger's card or vice versa? We just met on the first tee. I'm playing a public golf course. I'll never see "Dave" again.  The USGA posting rules have no stipulation to marking someone else's card, but only that you don't play solo.

As has been said, this was a first step towards having those of us in the USGA areas move slightly closer to the rest of the world, a first step towards the WHS.  The second step was in 2020, when the USGA calculation method was largely adopted by the rest of the world, they moved closer to our way of doing things.  Expect more steps in future versions of the WHS.  Perhaps in 5 years you WILL be attesting Dave's score, and he yours.

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Dave doesn't know jack about handicaps. Dave's reason for hitting the course is mostly beer drinking, so if that's where this is going, nobody will have a handicap except country club guys with a regular game, hence I stand by my comment that the usga has no concept of "public golf". 

 

Great job "growing the game".

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8 minutes ago, davep043 said:

As has been said, this was a first step towards having those of us in the USGA areas move slightly closer to the rest of the world, a first step towards the WHS.  The second step was in 2020, when the USGA calculation method was largely adopted by the rest of the world, they moved closer to our way of doing things.  Expect more steps in future versions of the WHS.  Perhaps in 5 years you WILL be attesting Dave's score, and he yours.


Glad this answer got repeated.  
 

The inconsistencies in the current rules bothered me, but if it’s just a transitional thing, no big deal. 

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8 minutes ago, larrybud said:

that the usga has no concept of "public golf". 

 

 

Your opinion is not fact or experienced based. It's merely a repeat of what we hear from others who don't know what they're talking about either.

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44 minutes ago, larrybud said:

What do you mean it doesn't matter? What part doesn't matter?

 

By the way, all I can assume now is that if the solo now it valid and good, then for 50+ years before that, it was wrong and everybody's handicap was invalid.

Oh boy.  


What I meant was that I agree that in the situation you outlined, playing along with someone didn’t have an impact (didn’t matter).  But other times it has an impact.  So, let’s keep with the new program since it helps sometimes. 
 

And you’re blowing smoke about the past 50 years.  While it could have been better before, those that followed the rules had a valid handicap — just as those who follow the current rules do.  Violate them because of your opinion and you are disrespecting all the other players who abide by a single set of procedures and you don’t have a valid handicap.  
 

When you join an international system, you can’t expect everything to be arranged to meet your personal  preferences.

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3 hours ago, larrybud said:

Why would I be marking this stranger's card or vice versa? We just met on the first tee. I'm playing a public golf course. I'll never see "Dave" again.  The USGA posting rules have no stipulation to marking someone else's card, but only that you don't play solo.

I'm sure if Dave is old enough to drink, he's old enough to count shots. Welcome to golf, everywhere else in the world we meet strangers on the first tee, swap cards and do our best to make sure we keep an eye on their golf so that the score you write down is correct.

 

3 hours ago, larrybud said:

Dave doesn't know jack about handicaps. Dave's reason for hitting the course is mostly beer drinking, so if that's where this is going, nobody will have a handicap except country club guys with a regular game, hence I stand by my comment that the usga has no concept of "public golf". 

 

Great job "growing the game".

If Dave doesn't know jack about handicaps, then ask someone else in the group. Oh hi guys, this is a handicap round for me, I need one of you to mark my card. I'll tell you my score, and if there's any doubt we'll double check.

 

Great round, thanks, maybe we'll play again next week.

 

If no one will mark your card, then you're in the same position as playing solo, no score. But if you play with three others surely one of them is willing to attest your card. I mean it's just counting!

 

As for the USGA having no concept of public golf, I can't comment. Here (in New Zealand) the bulk of golf is played by members of clubs. Golf is cheap here. A really nice club is $2000NZ per year with no other costs. So virtually all golf is played by people with genuine handicaps. 

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The US system will stay largely the same. I foresee that the next step in a random pairing will be attestation. In other words, you’ll need “Dave” to keep your score and attest it after the round. But we won’t be handing those cards in either. 
 

You either have an attested score or you don’t. You need an attested score to post. 
 

So if rando “Dave” tells you to pound sand when you ask him to keep your score, he’s “just there for the beer”, you won’t be able to post that score. Just like solo rounds now. 
 

It’s all done “on your honor”. One can cheat their cap now by posting solo rounds. In the future, they can cheat their cap by posting non-attested scores. We all make a choice to have a legitimate cap, or to cheat. 
 

Like I always say, nobody has a more accurate cap than I do. Many people, I’m sure, have just as accurate a cap as I do. They just can’t be more accurate than 100% posting compliance. 

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1 hour ago, Augster said:

The US system will stay largely the same. I foresee that the next step in a random pairing will be attestation. In other words, you’ll need “Dave” to keep your score and attest it after the round. But we won’t be handing those cards in either. 
 

You either have an attested score or you don’t. You need an attested score to post. 
 

So if rando “Dave” tells you to pound sand when you ask him to keep your score, he’s “just there for the beer”, you won’t be able to post that score. Just like solo rounds now. 
 

It’s all done “on your honor”. One can cheat their cap now by posting solo rounds. In the future, they can cheat their cap by posting non-attested scores. We all make a choice to have a legitimate cap, or to cheat. 
 

Like I always say, nobody has a more accurate cap than I do. Many people, I’m sure, have just as accurate a cap as I do. They just can’t be more accurate than 100% posting compliance. 

What would be the point of the honor system that you suggest?  Is your intention to make handicaps more honest?  If the US posting system stays the same with the added provision that handicap scores must be attested then a person could still log in and post any score that they want regardless of attestation. 

 

So, possibly the person who attests the score would watch the the subject post their score? 

 

Currently other then tournament rounds I keep my own score and post on my computer when I get home most of the time.  I could easily post at the course with whomever I golf with checking that I enter the score correctly I guess...  Hmmm, that could limit some sandbaggers a little bit I suppose. 

 

In the end I don't think that any system is going to stop some folks from cheating.  Actually it is very close to impossible to stop a good sandbagger from sandbagging no matter who golfs with them or attests their score as they easily can and do shoot higher scores on certain holes in order to keep the index from going too low.  It only takes one or two 'bad shots' per round to keep the index a couple of shots higher then it should be...

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I use TheGrint to keep my legit handicap.   My usual playing partners don't use it or keep a handicap.   I'm sure they won't be joining just to attest my scores.    If it comes to the requirement that a complete stranger has to sign my digital score card, I won't be keeping a legit handicap.   E-clubs may be have to change.

 

I know that TheGrint has an option to take a picture of the scorecard and upload it but it's not good enough to gather statistics. 

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5 minutes ago, DennyJones said:

I use TheGrint to keep my legit handicap.   My usual playing partners don't use it or keep a handicap.   I'm sure they won't be joining just to attest my scores.    If it comes to the requirement that a complete stranger has to sign my digital score card, I won't be keeping a legit handicap.   E-clubs may be have to change.

 

I know that TheGrint has an option to take a picture of the scorecard and upload it but it's not good enough to gather statistics. 

TheGrint's "take a picture and upload" feature won't attest the round, unfortunately.

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For years used my "official" handicap as my primary method for tracking progress. Given that I do most of my rounds solo, what I've had to come to terms with is - my official handicap just isn't that important anymore.

 

I'll post tournament scores, but if I'm not in the routine of posting, it becomes out of sight out of mind. 

 

 

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Can I post any of these rounds?

  • I'm playing with a friend. We're supposed to play 18 holes, but he gets a work call can leaves after 6. I play the remaining 12 holes solo. 
  • I'm a solo golfer and catch up to a three-some on hole 5 and finish my round with them. 
  • I'm a solo golfer and catch up to a three-some on hole 5, play with them until hole 9, then finish the back 9 solo. 

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4 minutes ago, RCGA said:

Can I post any of these rounds?

  • I'm playing with a friend. We're supposed to play 18 holes, but he gets a work call can leaves after 6. I play the remaining 12 holes solo. 
  • I'm a solo golfer and catch up to a three-some on hole 5 and finish my round with them. 
  • I'm a solo golfer and catch up to a three-some on hole 5, play with them until hole 9, then finish the back 9 solo. 

No.

Post the back nine only.

No.

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      That's it! @labgolf and GolfWRX will choose the testers in about 2 weeks! This testing event is for good-standing members in the USA only!
       
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      • 435 replies
    • 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club - Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
      2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club - Tuesday #1
      2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club - Tuesday #2
       
       
      Adam Scott - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
      Justin Rose - WITB - 2021 CJ Cup at The Summit Club
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      Gary Woodland's new Cameron putter - 2021 CJ Cup @ The Summit Club
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      • 6 replies
    • 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open WITB Photos- Discussion & Links
      Please put any questions or comments here...
       
      Links:
       
      Harry Higgs - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Ian Poulter - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Harry Higgs - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Matt NeSmith - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Doug Ghim - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      New Cameron Las Vegas covers - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      New Project X HZRDUS Smoke RDX shafts - 2021 Shriners Hospitals doe Children Open
       
       

       
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