Any loopholes to the inability to post solo rounds?

[North Butte]

50 years of utter stupidity (posting a score every single time you set foot on a golf course, including solo rounds) was finally replaced by a slightly less stupid system. That's progress, although tiny baby steps of progress. The fact they (USGA) did something even stupider for all that time in the past is no justification for continuing to do it in future.

Edited July 13, 2021 by North Butte

[rogolf]

Of course, it's only judged as "stupid" after the fact.

Passing judgement after the fact on decisions that were made earlier, made with the best intentions and information available at the time, is easy, but not very productive.

[North Butte]

I came to golf in the early 1990's, about 30 years ago. A couple years in I signed up for my first USGA handicap through the local semi-private course where I played. As far as I knew, the requirement to post solo rounds had "always" been there. At least that's what I was told.

 

I said on day one that posting solo rounds was stupid. There were no possible good intentions that would have made that any less stupid. Plenty of horribly stupid things have been done in history by people who profess the noblest of intentions. 

 

Or more succinctly, stupid is as stupid does.

[Nels55]

46 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Of course, it's only judged as "stupid" after the fact.

Passing judgement after the fact on decisions that were made earlier, made with the best intentions and information available at the time, is easy, but not very productive.

No matter what the USGA does a certain percentage of people will think that whatever they did was stupid.  I am among those who think the majority of the rules are very good but I don't like a few of them.  LOL everybody has their point of view.  I guess that this forum could use a point of view gun!

 

[rogolf]

20 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I came to golf in the early 1990's, about 30 years ago. A couple years in I signed up for my first USGA handicap through the local semi-private course where I played. As far as I knew, the requirement to post solo rounds had "always" been there. At least that's what I was told.

 

I said on day one that posting solo rounds was stupid. There were no possible good intentions that would have made that any less stupid. Plenty of horribly stupid things have been done in history by people who profess the noblest of intentions. 

 

Or more succinctly, stupid is as stupid does.

"Stupid" was a word that was not allowed to be used in our house.  It's derogatory and casting judgement.

Edited July 14, 2021 by rogolf

[North Butte]

Yes, of course I am casting judgment. The practice of requiring solo rounds to be posted for handicap purposes was a bad, awful, illogical idea with no possible redeeming values. That's my judgment. 

 

And in my judgment, reversing that decades-old practice was a considerable improvement to the system. 

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

The practice of requiring solo rounds to be posted for handicap purposes was a bad, awful, illogical idea with no possible redeeming values. 

So, maybe half the posters here think it is “bad, awful, illogical” to prohibit solo rounds from being posted, and half think the same about requiring them to be posted.
 

Somewhere in that you might find reason to ease up just a bit on the heavy  criticism. 

[North Butte]

7 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

So, maybe half the posters here think it is “bad, awful, illogical” to prohibit solo rounds from being posted, and half think the same about requiring them to be posted.
 

Somewhere in that you might find reason to ease up just a bit on the heavy  criticism. 

The are plenty of "bad, awful, illogical" beliefs held by "maybe half" of the people in the world. The number of people believing something does not affect the fact it is a dumb idea. 

[jvincent]

2 hours ago, North Butte said:

The are plenty of "bad, awful, illogical" beliefs held by "maybe half" of the people in the world. The number of people believing something does not affect the fact it is a dumb idea. 

You forgot to add IMHO at the end of your statement.

[RCGA]

11 hours ago, North Butte said:

The practice of requiring solo rounds to be posted for handicap purposes was a bad, awful, illogical idea with no possible redeeming values. 

 

But why though? Cheating your handicap is probably the easiest thing in all of sports. 

 

Because even if I don't write down the wrong score, I can hit shots that will purposely sabotage my round while making it look completely unintentional.  

 

Cheaters gonna cheat whether it's a solo round or a round with a rules official, a member of the handicap committee and the head pro. 

[North Butte]

 

24 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

But why though? Cheating your handicap is probably the easiest thing in all of sports. 

 

Because even if I don't write down the wrong score, I can hit shots that will purposely sabotage my round while making it look completely unintentional.  

 

Cheaters gonna cheat whether it's a solo round or a round with a rules official, a member of the handicap committee and the head pro. 

Yes, there are many other flaws in the USGA handicap system. And some are much worse than the solo round thing.

 

That still doesn't make posting solo rounds any better. Correcting one flaw while not correcting the others is still better than leaving the one flaw in there.

[MaineMariner]

As always, these topics devolve into folks talking past each other, because everyone's approaching the game from a different perspective.

 

I'm a weekend warrior who has never played in a competition and will likely never play in a competition. I'd say that puts me into a bucket of... I don't know, 95% of American golfers? And maybe 50% of American golfers who carry a handicap (total guess there). I carry a handicap for two reasons:

 

(1) To be able to get onto certain courses that require a handicap (i.e., so I can go to Scotland in two years); and

(2) As a general measure of my golf game.

 

You can certainly argue that the purpose of handicap is to facilitate competitive matches, and that the use of a handicap as a general measure of my golf game is improper (for a number of good reasons). You would probably be strictly correct, but I think the cart has left the barn on that one. Like it or not, a good chunk of the golfing population that is familiar with handicapping knows it as a measure of one's golf game. Apparently, so do the courses in Scotland that require a certain handicap... because why else would they be requiring it? My last two fittings started with my fitter asking me my handicap, because obviously they were using my answer as a general gauge of my game.

 

Now, having said all that, since I'm not using my handicap for competitive purposes, I feel a little more comfortable with massaging the rules to fit my weekend warrior needs. I don't really play any solo rounds so this particular discussion doesn't really apply to me, but if all of my golf buddies dropped dead today, I wouldn't let that stop me from going to Scotland.

[North Butte]

If you just want a handicap card to take to Scotland, sign up for a GHIN account and post a couple rounds a week for ten weeks. Pick whatever number produces the handicap you want. Nobody will stop you and it will accomplish its purpose for you.

[2bGood]

51 minutes ago, North Butte said:

If you just want a handicap card to take to Scotland, sign up for a GHIN account and post a couple rounds a week for ten weeks. Pick whatever number produces the handicap you want. Nobody will stop you and it will accomplish its purpose for you.

Sad but true. If you want to be a dishonest person you can do this for sure.

 

I recall playing at the old course and seeing some real hacks out there (lucky if they could break 130). I asked my caddie how they all met the handicap requirement and he said they show up with fake handicaps by the busload. I suggested maybe they should make a rule that if you don't break 50 on the front you need to leave.  I was joking (but also not joking 😉)

[North Butte]

5 hours ago, MaineMariner said:

As always, these topics devolve into folks talking past each other, because everyone's approaching the game from a different perspective.

 

I'm a weekend warrior who has never played in a competition and will likely never play in a competition. I'd say that puts me into a bucket of... I don't know, 95% of American golfers? And maybe 50% of American golfers who carry a handicap (total guess there). I carry a handicap for two reasons:

 

(1) To be able to get onto certain courses that require a handicap (i.e., so I can go to Scotland in two years); and

(2) As a general measure of my golf game.

 

You can certainly argue that the purpose of handicap is to facilitate competitive matches, and that the use of a handicap as a general measure of my golf game is improper (for a number of good reasons). You would probably be strictly correct, but I think the cart has left the barn on that one. Like it or not, a good chunk of the golfing population that is familiar with handicapping knows it as a measure of one's golf game. Apparently, so do the courses in Scotland that require a certain handicap... because why else would they be requiring it? My last two fittings started with my fitter asking me my handicap, because obviously they were using my answer as a general gauge of my game.

 

Now, having said all that, since I'm not using my handicap for competitive purposes, I feel a little more comfortable with massaging the rules to fit my weekend warrior needs. I don't really play any solo rounds so this particular discussion doesn't really apply to me, but if all of my golf buddies dropped dead today, I wouldn't let that stop me from going to Scotland.

There are plenty of free services that will compute a handicap for you online or with an app. Those will be good enough to answer things like the clubfitter's question and I'd reckon they will be good enough for the starter at The Old Course. 

 

You don't need a bona fide USGA handicap unless you're entering events that require specifically that. So why go to the trouble of signing up for GHIN and then ignoring the rules you're supposed to post under. You want to roll your own handicap under your own rules, as the old ad slogan went "There's an app for that".

[tboh]

41 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Sad but true. If you want to be a dishonest person you can do this for sure.

Sooooo ... if you play every round by strict rules of golf (goldfinger) meticulously keeping score but play by yourself then post your rounds to The Grint Supreme Golf GolfNow blah blah blah to get a handicap so you can play the greatest golf mecca in the world you're a dishonest person ... hmm 🤔🤔🤔

[MaineMariner]

48 minutes ago, North Butte said:

There are plenty of free services that will compute a handicap for you online or with an app. Those will be good enough to answer things like the clubfitter's question and I'd reckon they will be good enough for the starter at The Old Course. 

 

You don't need a bona fide USGA handicap unless you're entering events that require specifically that. So why go to the trouble of signing up for GHIN and then ignoring the rules you're supposed to post under. You want to roll your own handicap under your own rules, as the old ad slogan went "There's an app for that".

 

The app handicaps, like from theGrint, ARE bona fide USGA handicaps, so in theory the USGA rules apply (including the "no solo round" rule). The free online calculators are not USGA handicaps. GHIN is just a service that manages handicaps. The handicap you get from using GHIN is the same as the handicap you get from using theGrint.

 

The old days of needing to pay $30 to a course for the privilege of a handicap index are thankfully over. With theGrint, you can join a "virtual" club for free that satisfies the USGA's rule that you must be a member of a golf club.

Edited July 14, 2021 by MaineMariner

[Curmudg3on]

8 minutes ago, MaineMariner said:

The old days of needing to pay $30 to a course for the privilege of a handicap index are thankfully over. With theGrint, you can join a "virtual" club for free that satisfies the USGA's rule that you must be a member of a golf club.

 

You can join TheGrint for free but you won't get a USGA handicap for free.   

[MaineMariner]

9 minutes ago, DennyJones said:

 

You can join TheGrint for free but you won't get a USGA handicap for free.   

 

You could be right. I'm paying for the premium membership for the stat tracking, so that might be why I get a handicap.

[North Butte]

14 minutes ago, MaineMariner said:

 

The app handicaps, like from theGrint, ARE bona fide USGA handicaps, so in theory the USGA rules apply (including the "no solo round" rule). The free online calculators are not USGA handicaps. GHIN is just a service that manages handicaps. The handicap you get from using GHIN is the same as the handicap you get from using theGrint.

 

The old days of needing to pay $30 to a course for the privilege of a handicap index are thankfully over. With theGrint, you can join a "virtual" club for free that satisfies the USGA's rule that you must be a member of a golf club.

Don't you have to pay The Grint for a USGA handicap? 

 

Unless it has changed recently, their free version would calculate a handicap but you had to pay extra for the version that did it through an affiliated "virtual" club or whatever to get it on GHIN. 

 

I'm suggesting that you use either the free/unofficial The Grint handicap or any of those others which are not affiliated with USGA. It seems logical if the USGA's system does not suit your needs you'd skip paying for a USGA handicap and go with one of the freebies that allow you to post as you wish.

 

Paying extra to get a type of handicap that requires you to dodge the rules of the system seems like a strange approach to me. But as I've pointed out, it ain't like the USGA has a police force to enforce any rules you wish to ignore.

[MaineMariner]

1 minute ago, North Butte said:

Don't you have to pay The Grint for a USGA handicap? 

 

Unless it has changed recently, their free version would calculate a handicap but you had to pay extra for the version that did it through an affiliated "virtual" club or whatever to get it on GHIN. 

 

I'm suggesting that you use either the free/unofficial The Grint handicap or any of those others which are not affiliated with USGA. It seems logical if the USGA's system does not suit your needs you'd skip paying for a USGA handicap and go with one of the freebies that allow you to post as you wish.

 

Paying extra to get a type of handicap that requires you to dodge the rules of the system seems like a strange approach to me. But as I've pointed out, it ain't like the USGA has a police force to enforce any rules you wish to ignore.

 

Yeah, I think I may have been incorrect that the handicap you got from theGrint was free. I've been paying for the premium (like $4.99 a month) and didn't even realize that the official handicap was one of the perks.

[North Butte]

44 minutes ago, tboh said:

Sooooo ... if you play every round by strict rules of golf (goldfinger) meticulously keeping score but play by yourself then post your rounds to The Grint Supreme Golf GolfNow blah blah blah to get a handicap so you can play the greatest golf mecca in the world you're a dishonest person ... hmm 🤔🤔🤔

I would suggest that an honest person would generally prefer NOT to represent himself as having a handicap for which he does not follow the handicap system rules. Especially when there are many alternative handicapping systems which do not have that pesky "no solo rounds" rule. 

 

Seems an honest person would have a strong preference for subscribing to a system whose rules he feels comfortable abiding by. Rather than paying to subscribe to one he can't actually participate in fully and correctly. 

 

There are options other than USGA for handicaps. 

[davep043]

55 minutes ago, tboh said:

Sooooo ... if you play every round by strict rules of golf (goldfinger) meticulously keeping score but play by yourself then post your rounds to The Grint Supreme Golf GolfNow blah blah blah to get a handicap so you can play the greatest golf mecca in the world you're a dishonest person ... hmm 🤔🤔🤔

Let's see, you choose to join a Handicap service that has specific rules, you know the rules in advance, and you choose to flout those rules because you know better.  Yup, that's one of the words I might use.  I don't believe its acceptable to allow each person to  pick and choose which rules apply to him, that's anarchy.  And you probably don't either, you don't know which rules the OTHER guy might choose to flout.  

[tboh]

27 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I would suggest that an honest person would generally prefer NOT to represent himself as having a handicap for which he does not follow the handicap system rules. Especially when there are many alternative handicapping systems which do not have that pesky "no solo rounds" rule. 

 

Seems an honest person would have a strong preference for subscribing to a system whose rules he feels comfortable abiding by. Rather than paying to subscribe to one he can't actually participate in fully and correctly. 

 

There are options other than USGA for handicaps. 

Imo ... I would not call someone that loves golf & wants to play the greatest golf course in the world by using "some outside non Usga sevice" to obtain a handicap dishonest but that's just me

Edited July 14, 2021 by tboh

[tboh]

5 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Let's see, you choose to join a Handicap service that has specific rules, you know the rules in advance, and you choose to flout those rules because you know better.  Yup, that's one of the words I might use.  I don't believe its acceptable to allow each person to  pick and choose which rules apply to him, that's anarchy.  And you probably don't either, you don't know which rules the OTHER guy might choose to flout.  

Imo ... if someone chose to use a "non USgA handicapping" service to play St Andrews Imo the golf mecca i would not call that person dishonest ... now if they used their illegal USGA represented handicap to win a sanctioned event or lucrative scrambles for the prizes I would call them dishonest

[deadsolid...shank]

On 7/12/2021 at 4:55 PM, davep043 said:

As has been said, this was a first step towards having those of us in the USGA areas move slightly closer to the rest of the world, a first step towards the WHS.  The second step was in 2020, when the USGA calculation method was largely adopted by the rest of the world, they moved closer to our way of doing things.  Expect more steps in future versions of the WHS.  Perhaps in 5 years you WILL be attesting Dave's score, and he yours.

Isn’t the rest of the world largely competition based in their posting for handicap ( It’s been a while since this has been discussed here so I don’t remember for sure)?  If so, I still don’t see it being applicable here in the US. I just don’t think the percentage of rounds played in an official competition setting is anywhere near high enough. If they are looking to move that direction. Which maybe isn’t the case anyway. 

[DaveLeeNC]

It was probably 15'ish years ago - certainly back in the time frame where (in the US) you were required to post solo rounds (played under the RoG). Back then every once in a while I would go out and walk 18 holes in the late evening (summer time). If I chose the right course I could typically kind of have it to myself and I would treat this as a practice round - mostly revolving around taking 2nd (or 3rd) shots after having made some kind of mistake. 

 

I was playing really well and was about the 9th or 10th hole when I realized 'Dave, you are actually playing a postable round of golf here'. I had taken no extra shots/etc. So I finished the round like a 'real round' shooting a couple strokes under my handicap. And I posted it. 

 

dave

[rogolf]

11 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

Isn’t the rest of the world largely competition based in their posting for handicap ( It’s been a while since this has been discussed here so I don’t remember for sure)?  If so, I still don’t see it being applicable here in the US. I just don’t think the percentage of rounds played in an official competition setting is anywhere near high enough. If they are looking to move that direction. Which maybe isn’t the case anyway. 

Many golf clubs, particularly outside of North America, have competitions for their members once, twice or even three times per week, and those scores are used for handicap purposes.

Edited July 15, 2021 by rogolf

[North Butte]

DaveP,

 

No worse feeling than playing your second ball on about the third hole just for the heck of it then going on to play your best round in three years. 

[deadsolid...shank]

3 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Many golf clubs, particularly outside of North America, have "competitions" for their members once, twice or even three times per week, and those scores are used for handicap purposes.

Right, that’s what I was alluding to. That the  “rest of the world” plays a lot more golf that is considered competition. I believe the vast majority of US golf is unofficial competition golf. The typical 6-6-6 (or something similar) format so many of us play on a regular basis. But it wouldn’t count as a postable round in those other countries correct?

Edited July 15, 2021 by deadsolid...shank