We should be able to know the actual lofts of our drivers and fairway woods!!

[ChipStrokes]

4 hours ago, liveagua said:

You guys complain about how expensive golf clubs are now and you want to add another step of Quality Control?

 

Plus, it's a convex shaped face, where exactly on the face do you want the loft to be measured? 

the point is that with golf equipment being as expensive as it is, a 2* tolerance is pretty inexcusable. 

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

Most stores have a loft/lie machine.   If you want to know just ask them.   I've never been told no. 

the problem is, you go to your local golf shop and order a new 10.5* driver.  when it arrives, you have the shop check it for loft and it’s actually 12.3 degrees. 

 

now what do you do? you just spent $600+ on a driver custom ordered to your specs, but it’s not even close. 

[Lobby]

It's the 21st century, for goodness sake.   OEMs have all the latest high tech equipment to design and build clubs.  They should be able to hit the specs on the nose.

If they are lying to us about the specs they build clubs to that they advertise, then why should we believe any performance data they give us?

 

PS.  None of us have any idea what OEMs' capabilities are re club specs.   And so far, they've been very quiet with this info.

[lefthack]

Titleist also says a 10.5 driver is 10.5 or damn close to within .25*, not 2*.

 

At Titleist our new machines can measure lies and lofts to 2 decimal places. The tolerance is about .25. All the machines are calibrated twice a day just to make sure they are exact.

Titleist Golf Clubs
888 (TITLEIST)

[Shilgy]

On 7/9/2021 at 12:16 PM, Valtiel said:

Valid questions, and my assumptions are based on the fact that this stuff needs to be accurate if it is going to tour guys. If all these measurements were just for the general public then I would definitely have all those concerns since how much would it *really* matter in the long run. But with the pros, especially the more discerning ones, I don't think they can risk shoddy QC and inconsistent measurements as could seriously sour the relationship. 
 

With Taylormade stuff, an overwhelming majority of tour issue spec stickers have the same handwriting on them, which tells us that testing and sorting is likely done by a very small group of people with one person clearly signing off on/documenting the results of their measurements. 

Randomly replying to one of a few posts in this thread…..since it is tour issue could it have been made for or tweaked/adjusted to create the specs Mookie is freaking out over? Do they or can they adjust woods the way irons are adjusted? If yes they are are not manufactured so drastically “out of spec” as suggested. 

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

the point is that with golf equipment being as expensive as it is, a 2* tolerance is pretty inexcusable. 

the problem is, you go to your local golf shop and order a new 10.5* driver.  when it arrives, you have the shop check it for loft and it’s actually 12.3 degrees. 

 

now what do you do? you just spent $600+ on a driver custom ordered to your specs, but it’s not even close. 

Then you do one of two things.  One you could have them check if any of the heads in stock have 10.5*loft and swap.  The other would be a question of how do you know you absolutely need 10.5 degrees?  Did you have them measure the driver you got fit with?

[ChipStrokes]

23 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Then you do one of two things.  One you could have them check if any of the heads in stock have 10.5*loft and swap.  The other would be a question of how do you know you absolutely need 10.5 degrees?  Did you have them measure the driver you got fit with?

first point is a good compromise. 

 

second point raises even more questions and is kind of the crux of this whole thread, no?  from fitting, to ordering, to playing on the course, we really don’t know what we’re hitting. 

[Valtiel]

14 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Randomly replying to one of a few posts in this thread…..since it is tour issue could it have been made for or tweaked/adjusted to create the specs Mookie is freaking out over? Do they or can they adjust woods the way irons are adjusted? If yes they are are not manufactured so drastically “out of spec” as suggested. 

 

The fixed/glued hosel clubs can be bent, but I don't think that is ever done first, but rather in response to what the tour player wants. Adjustable hosel clubs don't have anything to bend. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Valtiel

[Mookieb10]

12 hours ago, liveagua said:

You guys complain about how expensive golf clubs are now and you want to add another step of Quality Control?

 

Plus, it's a convex shaped face, where exactly on the face do you want the loft to be measured? 

Hey man, I totally understand, but don’t you think, given the manufacturing tolerances, there is some middle ground between retail price (R) and (R+$250) for a tour issue piece of equipment? 
 

as to the convex face which many people have mentioned, it doesn’t matter as long as “Company A” measures all its clubs in the same place. I mean Taylormade isn’t measuring there clubs at the high toe, i know that. 

[Mookieb10]

4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Then you do one of two things.  One you could have them check if any of the heads in stock have 10.5*loft and swap.  The other would be a question of how do you know you absolutely need 10.5 degrees?  Did you have them measure the driver you got fit with?

Yea, I think that’s correct, I think you can have Ping get the specs you want. As to how do you know you need 10.5*... that’s the whole point of my initial observation. 

[Mookieb10]

4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Randomly replying to one of a few posts in this thread…..since it is tour issue could it have been made for or tweaked/adjusted to create the specs Mookie is freaking out over? Do they or can they adjust woods the way irons are adjusted? If yes they are are not manufactured so drastically “out of spec” as suggested. 

ahh man. Not freaking out. Personally, I’ve been lucky enough to know about these tolerances. Others aren’t so lucky. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Mookieb10
Rewording my pompous reply

[gibbiesmalls]

1 hour ago, Mookieb10 said:

ahh man. Not freaking out. Personally, I’ve been lucky enough to know about these tolerances. Others aren’t so lucky. 

Keep fighting the good fight Mookieb10. Great thread you started.

 

I swear, it's like some folks just refuse to acknowledge your succinct and clearly articulated and logically sound points.

 

Yeah, but... get fitted! lol

 

[Mookieb10]

21 minutes ago, gibbiesmalls said:

Keep fighting the good fight Mookieb10. Great thread you started.

 

I swear, it's like some folks just refuse to acknowledge your succinct and clearly articulated and logically sound points.

 

Yeah, but... get fitted! lol

 

Lol. Thanks for the very kind words. I think I could have been a bit more clear in distinguishing vanity lofts vs. tolerances, but beyond that, I don’t know what more to say. I suppose, if I was dedicated to following through on the topic, I could try to more accurately pin down how varied the lofts actually are on retail clubs. But I’m not in the golf industry and that’s an undertaking I’m not willing to engage with given the time it would take to gather a meaningful data set. 
 

Again, I appreciate the kind words. Sometimes it gets lost that behind these simple blocks of texts sits a human being with the array of human emotions that one experiences on a daily basis. And after being quite sad from watching Connor Mac just split his leg in half, you’ve managed to put a smile on my face before I call it a night. Thank you. 

 

 

[Shilgy]

39 minutes ago, gibbiesmalls said:

Keep fighting the good fight Mookieb10. Great thread you started.

 

I swear, it's like some folks just refuse to acknowledge your succinct and clearly articulated and logically sound points.

 

Yeah, but... get fitted! lol

 

If that is towards my post I clearly said to know what the fitting club was spec’d at.  
 

His points are all you mention….if accurate.  Many are questioning the veracity of said points.  

[gibbiesmalls]

25 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

If that is towards my post I clearly said to know what the fitting club was spec’d at.  
 

His points are all you mention….if accurate.  Many are questioning the veracity of said points.  

And to Mookie's point....

 

Now that you know the 15* 3 wood you were fit into was actually 14*,  what now?  Order a 15* and hope it doesn't come out at 16.6*? And if it does?

 

How does knowing the specs of the head you were fit into, help you in not having to play the tolerance lottery on your order?

 

I haven't counted, but I'm pretty sure Mookie's made that point 18 times now give or take a dozen.

 

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

The fixed/glued hosel clubs can be bent,

 

Not always.   Titanium is too brittle to bend.  And even with steel, it can depends on where the weld seems are placed around the hosel.

[Shilgy]

7 hours ago, gibbiesmalls said:

And to Mookie's point....

 

Now that you know the 15* 3 wood you were fit into was actually 14*,  what now?  Order a 15* and hope it doesn't come out at 16.6*? And if it does?

 

How does knowing the specs of the head you were fit into, help you in not having to play the tolerance lottery on your order?

 

I haven't counted, but I'm pretty sure Mookie's made that point 18 times now give or take a dozen.

 

And the point already made was to get fit somewhere the demo club is a a known entity.

 

Doing your due diligence and having specs on orders goes a long way.

 

That is all some are saying.

[dlygrisse]

One of the big problems with getting fit at a big box store is you are hitting a demo club.  Then you purchase another club with the specs the demo club had. You really have no idea if the loft is 2 degrees different or if the shaft is 1/2 a flex weaker.  
 

if you buy a pair of shoes or jeans at least you get to try on the pair you buy.  

[dlygrisse]

14 hours ago, lefthack said:

Titleist also says a 10.5 driver is 10.5 or damn close to within .25*, not 2*.

 

At Titleist our new machines can measure lies and lofts to 2 decimal places. The tolerance is about .25. All the machines are calibrated twice a day just to make sure they are exact.

Titleist Golf Clubs
888 (TITLEIST)

I bought a Vokey wedge once standard specs were 58 loft 64 lie. Had them put it on the LL machine at the store, it measures at 61/63 or something crazy like that. 

[Jc0]

15 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Randomly replying to one of a few posts in this thread…..since it is tour issue could it have been made for or tweaked/adjusted to create the specs Mookie is freaking out over? Do they or can they adjust woods the way irons are adjusted? If yes they are are not manufactured so drastically “out of spec” as suggested. 

 

No. Each separate piece of the head is manufactured and then welded, glued, or fastened together. The tolerance stack up from all the various components and tooling variation will determine the final loft. The materials used in a wood head are very rigid and can't really be bent without breaking. Tour heads now days are just standard heads the have checked the specs on. 

[gibbiesmalls]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

And the point already made was to get fit somewhere the demo club is a a known entity.

 

Doing your due diligence and having specs on orders goes a long way.

 

That is all some are saying.

 

 

.....and back to square one.

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by gibbiesmalls

[North Butte]

I absolutely guarantee if you buy a "10.5 degree" driver and have it measured at three different retail stores plus three different club fitters, no two of those measures will completely agree as to the loft. Those six measurements will cover at least a degree or degree and a half range. It's all subjective in terms of what machine is being used and how the operator of the machine lines the club up in the measuring fixture. 

[lefthack]

7 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

I bought a Vokey wedge once standard specs were 58 loft 64 lie. Had them put it on the LL machine at the store, it measures at 61/63 or something crazy like that. 

 

I would have brought that up with Titleist. They seem to think everything is within .25* 🤣

[Jim53]

Very interesting discussion, it seems there is no solution that makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint (cost) or a end user satisfaction point (cost again). I swore off Cobra years ago due to a QC problem that they refused to even acknowledge and have only received 2 sets of irons from Callaway (out of more than I care to count) that were close to specs overall. The latest TCB being nearly perfect, on the machine used to check them.

[dlygrisse]

2 hours ago, lefthack said:

 

I would have brought that up with Titleist. They seem to think everything is within .25* 🤣

The place I bought it bent it to spec no charge before I walked out the door. 

[North Butte]

4 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

The place I bought it bent it to spec no charge before I walked out the door. 

Of course you never know, the same store may have bent in to 61/63 in the first place. 

[markheardjr]

On 7/8/2021 at 9:27 PM, ChipNRun said:

@Mookieb10,

 

What you show is clubs available from an online source. These are Tour Issue - all OEMs have this gig. The implication is that these clubs were prepared for a specific golf pro or at least met pro level quality-control precision.

 

Another thing is the mix in the long clubs. Did the same pro/competition amateur order both of these clubs? Or, were the clubs tweaked as single fairways for an accomplished players? If the player got what he/she wanted, let's assume the 19* and 15* were starting points for building the club the player eventually thought he/she wanted.

 

 

 

My observation is most OEMs measure a bulk lot of heads from the factory and ship them to the HQ or Tour Van (TV.) The HQ/TV will pull the head that matches the pro's specs the closest. VERY rarely are they making the club, from raw materials to assembly, to a players specs.  They just pluck the 1 of 500 heads they get that is closest.

 

The rejects, with the crazy specs are the ones you usually see online for sale. Especially current product lines. And many are probably non-conforming. I've seen plenty of hot heads with the "+" or "T" serials.  A lot of the older lines they dump on wholesalers for a little bonus sales boost. But for the most part, anything super open/closed is going on the secondary market. And there is always the rare super old head they saved for someone that finally switched.  Sure some are caddies, or friends of players or celebrities or local club pros buddies with the rep, or whatever. But many are tour van rejects with crazy spec sheets that go to resellers that also deal retail left overs.

 

Also, remember 1° open means you have to close the head 0.6° to square. So a stamped 15 head, that is measured 16.6 but is 2 open will actually play 15.4 when squared (closing/shutting the open face to square it.)  Essentially the same thing an adapter is doing for you. But then the head doesn't sit exactly as you may like it.

[ChipNRun]

2 hours ago, markheardjr said:

My observation is most OEMs measure a bulk lot of heads from the factory and ship them to the HQ or Tour Van (TV.) The HQ/TV will pull the head that matches the pro's specs the closest. VERY rarely are they making the club, from raw materials to assembly, to a players specs.  They just pluck the 1 of 500 heads they get that is closest.

 

Now I'm starting to understand better the original question. I simply have not paid attention to Tour Issue club sales. These tend to be Pro and Tour head and club offerings that are beyond my playing ability. I focus on the GI - or on occasion SGI - neighborhoods for my equipment.

 

@Mookieb10, I did not mean to be harsh to you in my earlier comments.

Edited July 12, 2021 by ChipNRun