Player hits ball from teeing area in anger during match play

[BlackDiamondPar5]

On 7/10/2021 at 12:07 PM, wobgon said:

Nothing to do with the ruling but i would be interested to know what the minor issue on the previous hole was.

While I wasn't there I have talked to others in the foursome.  It was nothing, it's just that this guy has become an intolerable jerk.   So on that night all the guys in that foursome whom have known each other for 20+ years, but one of the guys is newer to golf was trying to get a better understanding of how OB was scored on the previous hole. Specifically how our league treats it; stroke and distance vs 2 stroke penalty without distance penalty.  One of the other guys was explaining it to him but I guess the conversation went on too long or wasn't explaining properly for Mr. Intolerable.  That's when he lost it and whacked the ball off the tee and yelled at the others. 

 

It's really no surprise.  The guy has always been quirky on the course and has only gotten worse over the years.  There's been a series of smaller incidents over the years which people have tolerated.  He'll be the first to call someone on a rules violation, even when he's wrong.  On top of that he's a slow player and treats an after work social league like high stakes golf--- he can suck the fun right out of the evening.  It's to the point where people have asked not to be paired with him.    I haven't played with him yet this season but I've adopted a ZERO TOLERANCE policy for his nonsense, so I suppose it's only a matter of time until BD launches at him like a nuclear warhead. 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by BlackDiamondPar5

[Naptime]

If the swatter hit it in the direction of other people I'd be less concerned about docking them a stroke and distance, and more wondering why would I want to play with someone like that and are there grounds for a DQ.

[4x4GGG]

This is interesting and it makes me wonder about a habit we have at an old course I used to play. It was a tradition thing... 

 

So this course I used to play if you think you had a bad round you'd donate your ball to the water gods on 10. The water was adjacent to the 10th tee, but not in play. You'd take your front 9 ball and lob it into the pond and start 10 with a new ball. Never stopped to think this was a penalty stroke. Played this way for 10 years.. 

[jimbo123]

35 minutes ago, 4x4GGG said:

This is interesting and it makes me wonder about a habit we have at an old course I used to play. It was a tradition thing... 

 

So this course I used to play if you think you had a bad round you'd donate your ball to the water gods on 10. The water was adjacent to the 10th tee, but not in play. You'd take your front 9 ball and lob it into the pond and start 10 with a new ball. Never stopped to think this was a penalty stroke. Played this way for 10 years.. 

Did the water gods answer? Breach of 4.3 in using your equipment as part of a ritual sacrifice? 

[antip]

2 hours ago, 4x4GGG said:

This is interesting and it makes me wonder about a habit we have at an old course I used to play. It was a tradition thing... 

 

So this course I used to play if you think you had a bad round you'd donate your ball to the water gods on 10. The water was adjacent to the 10th tee, but not in play. You'd take your front 9 ball and lob it into the pond and start 10 with a new ball. Never stopped to think this was a penalty stroke. Played this way for 10 years.. 

??? You are permitted to change balls between holes.

[2bGood]

 

13 hours ago, 4x4GGG said:

This is interesting and it makes me wonder about a habit we have at an old course I used to play. It was a tradition thing... 

 

So this course I used to play if you think you had a bad round you'd donate your ball to the water gods on 10. The water was adjacent to the 10th tee, but not in play. You'd take your front 9 ball and lob it into the pond and start 10 with a new ball. Never stopped to think this was a penalty stroke. Played this way for 10 years.. 

 

I assume when you say 'lob' you are meaning hitting a wedge. The question is did you chip the ball into the water or take a full swing. From my read of 5.5 chipping balls into the water would okay, but a full swing would not.

 

5.5: While playing a hole and between two holes, you must not make a practice stroke.

Exception – Between holes you may practise putting or chipping on or near the putting green of the hole you just completed and any practice green, and the teeing area of your next hole. But such practice strokes must not be made from a bunker and must not unreasonably delay play.

 

10 hours ago, antip said:

??? You are permitted to change balls between holes.

See above I think his talking about 'lob' with a wedge not 'lob' by tossing it with your hand. If you are tossing a ball in the water - no issue. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by 2bGood

[4x4GGG]

21 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

 

I assume when you say 'lob' you meeting hitting a wedge. Question is did you chip the ball into the water or take a full swing. From my read of 5.5 chipping balls into the water would okay, but a full swing would not.

 

5.5: While playing a hole and between two holes, you must not make a practice stroke.

Exception – Between holes you may practise putting or chipping on or near the putting green of the hole you just completed and any practice green, and the teeing area of your next hole. But such practice strokes must not be made from a bunker and must not unreasonably delay play.

 

See above I think his talking about 'lob' with a wedge not 'lob' by tossing it with your hand. If you are tossing a ball in the water - no issue. 

And this gets more and more entertaining. 

 

I do mean using a golf club to hit the ball. But the type of swing comes into play now. It's about 50 yards to the fountain in the middle. So... If I hit my 48*, my favorite wedge, it's a chip or a pitch and it's OK. But.. should I grab my 60*... open up the face.... and take a full flopping swing at it... it's a penalty. 

[2bGood]

54 minutes ago, 4x4GGG said:

And this gets more and more entertaining. 

 

I do mean using a golf club to hit the ball. But the type of swing comes into play now. It's about 50 yards to the fountain in the middle. So... If I hit my 48*, my favorite wedge, it's a chip or a pitch and it's OK. But.. should I grab my 60*... open up the face.... and take a full flopping swing at it... it's a penalty. 

Yes that is my read of the rules. 🤷‍♂️

[Mr. Bean]

55 minutes ago, 4x4GGG said:

And this gets more and more entertaining. 

 

I do mean using a golf club to hit the ball. But the type of swing comes into play now. It's about 50 yards to the fountain in the middle. So... If I hit my 48*, my favorite wedge, it's a chip or a pitch and it's OK. But.. should I grab my 60*... open up the face.... and take a full flopping swing at it... it's a penalty. 

 

Well, that kind of action starts very much resemble such practicing that is not allowed.

[antip]

5 hours ago, 4x4GGG said:

And this gets more and more entertaining. 

 

I do mean using a golf club to hit the ball. But the type of swing comes into play now. It's about 50 yards to the fountain in the middle. So... If I hit my 48*, my favorite wedge, it's a chip or a pitch and it's OK. But.. should I grab my 60*... open up the face.... and take a full flopping swing at it... it's a penalty. 

Absolutely the stroke matters. Practise strokes during play get the general penalty with a limited exception for practise putting or chipping identified in 5.5b. This rule is unchanged in many years.

[sekrah]

On 7/10/2021 at 12:18 AM, 2bGood said:

For instance it is somewhat common for a player to 'swat' a ball after a bad hole into the water/woods etc. (poor behaviour). In action how is this any different? There is nothing magical about the teeing area. He swatted his ball away in anger or disgust between holes.

Agree 100% with this logic. A one-handed slap into the driving range is not a stroke.

 

Everyone is so eager to penalize their playing partners for just about anything, it's comical.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by sekrah

[jimbo123]

56 minutes ago, sekrah said:

Agree 100% with this logic. A one-handed slap into the driving range is not a stroke.

 

Everyone is so eager to penalize their playing partners for just about anything, it's comical.

 

 

Funny, I have the opposite reaction to this thread.  I hate calling a penalty and don’t think this action “should” be a penalty.   But it’s pretty hard to figure out why it’s “not” a penalty, just reading the basic bits of the rules (eg definition of stroke).   So it’s helpful to question it and hash it out and eventually learn it’s not a penalty. 

[sekrah]

2 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

Funny, I have the opposite reaction to this thread.  I hate calling a penalty and don’t think this action “should” be a penalty.   But it’s pretty hard to figure out why it’s “not” a penalty, just reading the basic bits of the rules (eg definition of stroke).   So it’s helpful to question it and hash it out and eventually learn it’s not a penalty. 

I think the gray area is that chipping between holes is allowed but full swings on a ball aren't.   This case - a one handed swing in anger with no intention of practicing a full stroke - is not a full swing/stroke.

 

[jimbo123]

13 minutes ago, sekrah said:

I think the gray area is that chipping between holes is allowed but full swings on a ball aren't.   This case - a one handed swing in anger with no intention of practicing a full stroke - is not a full swing/stroke.

 

Mmmm not sure I agree with that.  Anything other than chipping or putting is not allowed, and pretty certain no one would call this chipping?  
 

(I agree it’s no penalty btw and am happy about that outcome) 

[Mr. Bean]

53 minutes ago, sekrah said:

I think the gray area is that chipping between holes is allowed but full swings on a ball aren't.   This case - a one handed swing in anger with no intention of practicing a full stroke - is not a full swing/stroke.

 

 

It is a stroke per Definition, nothing grey about that. Nowhere it is said in the Rules that a stroke needs to be full swing. Besides, you are allowed to make full swing 10 meter lobs close to the teeing ground but you are not allowed to make 100 meter full swing strokes.

 

And I agree with jimbo123. It is important to find the Rules to support the ruling, especially if the ruling itself might have been made with the spirit of the game in mind.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[sekrah]

If by rule, that should be counted as a stroke, then this is yet another absurd example of golf rules run amok.  No reasonable person would say that 1) was an intentional effort to get into the hole or 2) the player achieved an advantage from doing it

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by sekrah

[2bGood]

1 minute ago, sekrah said:

 then this is yet another absurd example of golf rules run amok. 

 

Just a little aside. This discussion is on the fringes of the edges of the rules. What the OP described is not common and rarely if ever needs to ruled on. 

 

99.99% of the time the rules function very elegantly and effectively. It is the .01% of the time that provides us interesting things to talk about in this forum 

[jimbo123]

8 minutes ago, sekrah said:

If by rule, that should be counted as a stroke, then this is yet another absurd example of golf rules run amok.  No reasonable person would say that 1) was an intentional effort to get into the hole or 2) the player achieved an advantage from doing it

 

Agreed, if that were the case.  I also wish it was much clearer in the rules why it is not a stroke.  But at least the “answer” (even if it’s not perfectly clear from the simple definition) is that it’s not a stroke. 

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

Agreed, if that were the case.  I also wish it was much clearer in the rules why it is not a stroke.  But at least the “answer” (even if it’s not perfectly clear from the simple definition) is that it’s not a stroke. 

I hope I've read the posts from our more knowledgeable friends correctly, but here's my understanding.  That angry swing does indeed qualify as a stroke.  However, the first sentence of 6.1a says:

Quote

A player has started a hole when he or she makes a stroke to begin the hole.

The player's intent to begin the hole has some bearing, and as he didn't intend to begin the hole, and he wasn't actually practicing, it does not count, and is not penalized.  I hope I've phrased that correctly.

[jimbo123]

6 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I hope I've read the posts from our more knowledgeable friends correctly, but here's my understanding.  That angry swing does indeed qualify as a stroke.  However, the first sentence of 6.1a says:

The player's intent to begin the hole has some bearing, and as he didn't intend to begin the hole, and he wasn't actually practicing, it does not count, and is not penalized.  I hope I've phrased that correctly.

My reading of the thread is that it’s exactly what you say, plus it’s not a stroke anyway, because of 18-2/23 (which still applies despite being eliminated, somehow) 

 

edit: didn’t mean to reopen this can of worms, was just responding to the bit about being eager to penalise 🙂 

Edited July 15, 2021 by jimbo123

[Mr. Bean]

56 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

My reading of the thread is that it’s exactly what you say, plus it’s not a stroke anyway, because of 18-2/23 (which still applies despite being eliminated, somehow) 

 

 

 

The player is not considered to have made a stroke. That was the message of old 18-2/23.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[jimbo123]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The player is not considered to have made a stroke. That was the message of old 18-2/23.

Right.  Which is critical. Because if you only rely on 6.1a in this situation, you’ll get the right answer here, but you won’t get to the correct answer for the same action on a ball in play.   (As far as I understand it - I’ve almost given up on understanding this perfectly).