Correcting Iron Lie angle

[PhilBurg]

They say when you bend a club lie upright it creates a draw and the opposite when bending the lie flat. Shouldn't it not matter which way you bend the lie just as long the end result is the club head sits parallel or flush to the ground through the swing??

[MisterT]

The unstated assumption in that statement is the angle of the shaft will remain constant. As a result, the expectation is a more upright club would "point" more left or encourage a draw. Pointing left is easily seen by extending a club from your waist straight out in front of you - parallel to the ground. The clubface is pointed less and less to the left as you lower it toward the ground.

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, PhilBurg said:

They say when you bend a club lie upright it creates a draw and the opposite when bending the lie flat. Shouldn't it not matter which way you bend the lie just as long the end result is the club head sits parallel or flush to the ground through the swing??

 

Fitting for lie angle should always be done dynamically, based on measuring the orientation of the club at impact.  No other part of the swing matters (especially the position at setup and address).

 

 

 

What happens when the lie angle is not level is based on the nature of the d-plane being tilted and will cause the ball to go off line.  But the effect isn't really all that large.  It's not going to cause major changes to the shot shape.  You can read more about that here:

 

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/lie1.php

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Stuart_G

[PhilBurg]

I did the vertical line on the ball and it is straight up and down on the club face when I strike the ball. So after adjusting lie 3 degrees upright it was the right decision. Now i have to figure out why I hit the ball toward the toe in the exact same spot every time. The ball path is actually very nice with a very slight draw. Obviously if i was able to strike the ball in the center of the club the results should be a whole lot better?

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, PhilBurg said:

I did the vertical line on the ball and it is straight up and down on the club face when I strike the ball. So after adjusting lie 3 degrees upright it was the right decision. Now i have to figure out why I hit the ball toward the toe in the exact same spot every time. The ball path is actually very nice with a very slight draw. Obviously if i was able to strike the ball in the center of the club the results should be a whole lot better?

 

For an iron, missing on the toe will start the ball a little offline (fade side) and you'll loose ball speed and distance.  For a driver/fairway/hybrid, it will do that but also add draw spin.

[NorCal678]

On 7/22/2021 at 1:13 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

For an iron, missing on the toe will start the ball a little offline (fade side) and you'll loose ball speed and distance.  For a driver/fairway/hybrid, it will do that but also add draw spin.

 

 

For a poor striker, maybe that is true.  If you middle the ball most of the time, a toe will be a draw and a heel the opposite.  This is because a slightly closed face will impact the toe and an open one the heel.  We aren't taking way on the toe or the heel, but i can certainly feel it.  

 

Toey draws go really far with the metals and hybrids, but that's typically a bad thing.  If i'm 220 out and hit my 22, i don't want it to roll 230.    

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, NorCal678 said:

 

 

For a poor striker, maybe that is true.  If you middle the ball most of the time, a toe will be a draw and a heel the opposite.  This is because a slightly closed face will impact the toe and an open one the heel.  We aren't taking way on the toe or the heel, but i can certainly feel it.  

 

The quality of the striker is irrelevant.   What happens because of the off center hit is just an relative "adjustment" to what the normal shot shape would have been if the hit had been in the center of the face for the given face and path. It wont necessarily completely override the effects of the face orientation at impact.

 

Also, that combination might be true for some but it's not a reliable generalization you can count on. You can't make assumptions about the face and face to path just based on the face impact location.  Off center impact can happen for a lot of different reasons, not just because of face angle or path issues.

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[NorCal678]

Redacted. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by NorCal678

[Stuart_G]

34 minutes ago, NorCal678 said:

 

I good striker will bring the middle of the club to the ball.  If you close the face a little more it hits on the toe, if you open the face a little more it hits on the heel.  My toe shots always draw and my heels always fade.  It's incredibly rare that a flush strike has much curve.  

 

For drivers/woods/hybrids the spin added by the gear effect (which I already mentioned) can be significant enough to see that, especially in better players who for which big slices or hooks are not normal.  

 

But irons don't have any gear effect so if that's true to your irons, you're likely getting the cause and effect mixed up.   e.g. your fade miss for your irons always hits the heel and draw misses always hit the toe.    Shot shape in irons is completely determined by face to path, not impact location.  Impact only really has a predominant effect on the start line and ball speed.

 

 

Quote

There is a reason budge and roll offsets a toe draw and a heel fade.  

 

And there is also a reason why irons don't have bulge and roll. 🙂

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[CROUSE99]

On 7/21/2021 at 1:25 PM, PhilBurg said:

They say when you bend a club lie upright it creates a draw and the opposite when bending the lie flat. Shouldn't it not matter which way you bend the lie just as long the end result is the club head sits parallel or flush to the ground through the swing??

You are right in saying what matters is the sole is parallel to the ground at impact.  You change the lie angle to achieve that result.  So, for example, bending a club upright will only result in the face pointing left at impact if the resulting lie places the toe higher than the heel at impact.  Upright and flat only influence the ball flight in relation to a "neutral" lie angle.  That neutral lie angle may be 3 degrees upright for one player and 3 degrees flat for another player.

[Billfitz]

The lie angle is most severe on a slope. When the ball is above your feet it goes left, when below it goes right. Consider the degrees of angle of a slope that it takes to make a major flight path difference. It's going to take a lot of bending to fix a consistent slice or hook swing. Refining your technique to get a consistent fade or draw will work better than bending clubs, and if you really get your swing working you can do both.