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Bushnell Launch Pro Device with Foresight


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2 hours ago, WallysWorld said:

Uneekor has entered the chat. I have to say, they provide the most bang for the buck but only drawback is that it's ceiling mounted. There are some rumors that Uneekor is looking into the portable launch monitor. 

The QED has drawbacks. Not portable and uses proprietary golf balls. What good is the data if you are using a different ball on the course? They should be partnered with a Titleist, Callaway or TM by now to offer a tour level ball (not the Bridgestone.) The latter two should be able to do it given their truvis and pix lines. Upping the price from $6k to $7k was also disappointing. 


No camera system has put real pressure on Skytrak since it was released in 2014. Think about how much 4K tech has come down in price over 7 years. Hardware hasn’t improved. Cost hasn’t come down. Many people will stay on the sidelines if the LaunchPro/GC3 maintains the status quo. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, The Coug said:

The QED has drawbacks. Not portable and uses proprietary golf balls. What good is the data if you are using a different ball on the course? They should be partnered with a Titleist, Callaway or TM by now to offer a tour level ball (not the Bridgestone.) The latter two should be able to do it given their truvis and pix lines. Upping the price from $6k to $7k was also disappointing. 


No camera system has put real pressure on Skytrak since it was released in 2014. Think about how much 4K tech has come down in price over 7 years. Hardware hasn’t improved. Cost hasn’t come down. Many people will stay on the sidelines if the LaunchPro/GC3 maintains the status quo. 
 

 

I was referencing the EYEXO, QED provides calculations whereas EYEXO provides measured club data and you can use any golf ball you like without using dots on the balls. 

 

Tech has gotten better in providing better data. Price point will steer those looking for a deal but I can see those wanting just a tad bit more and better quality data than ST/Mevo +.  I for sure am willing to spend more than the $2-$3k price point. With winter getting closer here in the US, people will be forced to practice inside. This unit will do well regardless. 

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1 hour ago, Indygolf21 said:

Foresight has a far superior product in the GC2 (and surely the GC3) and they can and should charge a premium for it. I don’t know why they’d want to compete with Skytrak; if you haven’t bought one yet, you’re probably not going to buy a comparable device, and there’s a big enough unserved market right now among the serious player who values dead on accurate practice data and wants a superior portable monitor (and with club data).  

Maybe I don’t know enough about the GC2 but if this is just a GC2 replacement it’s not serving a new market it’s serving the same market with an upgraded product. If the GC2 was highly accurate and offered the same data points what is really being gained other than a Bushnell sticker on the front?

 

Thats like apple saying they have a new and exciting product for everyone when upgrading from one iPhone to the next. 

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12 minutes ago, WallysWorld said:

I was referencing the EYEXO, QED provides calculations whereas EYEXO provides measured club data and you can use any golf ball you like without using dots on the balls. 

 

Tech has gotten better in providing better data. Price point will steer those looking for a deal but I can see those wanting just a tad bit more and better quality data than ST/Mevo +.  I for sure am willing to spend more than the $2-$3k price point. With winter getting closer here in the US, people will be forced to practice inside. This unit will do well regardless. 

Agreed. EyeXO vs. a loaded Quad ($18k w/o putting) is a good comparison. Eye handling LH/RH is great for studio settings. Placement still makes me nervous for skied driver shots and sim golf flop shots.

 

Many of us got our hopes up seeing a new player (Bushnell) enter the LM space. Like Garmin’s R10 disrupting the “budget” market, the hope is that the LaunchPro does the same for the Personal LM market. $2000 is the historical benchmark (ST and M+). Some are willing to stretch that for something better. A direct replacement for the GC2 doesn’t do a whole lot for the sub $5k crowd. 
 

Cards on the table, my personal threshold is $3k. At that price you can get a mat, net, and flatscreen TV/tablet to learn your game and improve. Beyond that, I feel a $6-7k machine needs to be hooked up to a projector, screen, and gaming PC to justify the investment. Just my thoughts. 

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18 minutes ago, jcrews5508 said:

Maybe I don’t know enough about the GC2 but if this is just a GC2 replacement it’s not serving a new market it’s serving the same market with an upgraded product. If the GC2 was highly accurate and offered the same data points what is really being gained other than a Bushnell sticker on the front?

 

Thats like apple saying they have a new and exciting product for everyone when upgrading from one iPhone to the next. 

Taking a GC2, adding club data (even if limited to a few parameters), and selling for 3k + a software subscription (as has been rumored) is certainly a big step foreword. 

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Someone on another forum who knows a rep has said that he has been told that the little clubhead data the launch pro will offer will be less accurate than GCQuad, but still accurate enough to be useful (paraphrasing). 

 

Based on what the rep said it seems like the hardware is going to limit what they are able to capture from a club data perspective.

 

My theory is since all three cameras are directly face on, they will only be able to capture things like clubhead speed and maybe face angle at impact. 

 

I'm no engineer, but if you look at an HMT attachment the cameras are positioned in front of the ball and angled back toward it so they can see the stickers on the clubface.

 

Same thing with the lower cameras on the GCQuad - angled.

 

I don't think the cameras are going to be able to be able to track the stickers on the club correctly if the camera is face on unless you are sticking them on the toe of the club and the hosel. 

 

Edited by DinoSpumoni228
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9 minutes ago, Indygolf21 said:

Taking a GC2, adding club data (even if limited to a few parameters), and selling for 3k + a software subscription (as has been rumored) is certainly a big step foreword. 


at that price ofcourse. There has been much talk today of being priced like the gc2, which is much greater than 3k.

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12 minutes ago, DinoSpumoni228 said:

Someone on another forum who knows a rep has said that he has been told that the little clubhead data the launch pro will offer will be less accurate than GCQuad, but still accurate enough to be useful (paraphrasing). 

 

Based on what the rep said it seems like the hardware is going to limit what they are able to capture from a club data perspective.

 

My theory is since all three cameras are directly face on, they will only be able to capture things like clubhead speed and maybe face angle at impact. 

 

I'm no engineer, but if you look at an HMT attachment the cameras are positioned in front of the angled back toward the ball so they can see the stickers on the clubface.

 

Same thing with the lower cameras on the GCQuad - angled.

 

I don't think the cameras are going to be able to be able to track the stickers on the club correctly if the camera is face on unless you are sticking them on the toe of the club and the hosel. 

 

If the GC3 could give club head data based on the one dot mode in the Quad that would be great. One dot gets club speed, smash, AoA and path - no face angle, loft or lie at impact. Seems plausible . .  .

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Bushnell has in fact announced that they will be selling it for US$2999 on an investor call. That's not a rumour.

 

The catch is that for all LM, software is often "held hostage". This is the biggest unknown.

 

I'd expect the GC3 version to be about £&€2999 as well.

 

It's just the software… notably the PC version of TGC2019 on ST is what, $900? That's my guess as to where most people will steer.

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5 minutes ago, karstens_ghost said:

Bushnell has in fact announced that they will be selling it for US$2999 on an investor call. That's not a rumour.

 

The catch is that for all LM, software is often "held hostage". This is the biggest unknown.

 

I'd expect the GC3 version to be about £&€2999 as well.

 

It's just the software… notably the PC version of TGC2019 on ST is what, $900? That's my guess as to where most people will steer.

Where do you see that? Attached is the transcript of the Q results....

 

"

Last week, we announced our partnership with technology leader Foresight Sports and our intent to bring the consumers dilution to the market under the Bushnell golf brand. The Launch Pro will offer our core consumers access to the best technology and measurement and analysis to support their game. Launch Pro also expand their offerings in the off-course inspired golf segment to access to multiple code simulations to enhance the in-home or off-course playing experience.

We will begin taking orders in September and we will ship the Launch Pro in October. We are also constantly taking new markets to leverage our technology and IP portfolio, which has led us to the rapidly growing sport of disc golf. Our disc golf laser range finder product, the edge laser range finder has been well received in the marketplace. We are also activating partnership in the advocacy sector to expand access and infrastructure for disc golf."- Vishak Sankaran

 

 

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24 minutes ago, WallysWorld said:

Where do you see that? Attached is the transcript of the Q results....

 

"

Last week, we announced our partnership with technology leader Foresight Sports and our intent to bring the consumers dilution to the market under the Bushnell golf brand. The Launch Pro will offer our core consumers access to the best technology and measurement and analysis to support their game. Launch Pro also expand their offerings in the off-course inspired golf segment to access to multiple code simulations to enhance the in-home or off-course playing experience.

We will begin taking orders in September and we will ship the Launch Pro in October. We are also constantly taking new markets to leverage our technology and IP portfolio, which has led us to the rapidly growing sport of disc golf. Our disc golf laser range finder product, the edge laser range finder has been well received in the marketplace. We are also activating partnership in the advocacy sector to expand access and infrastructure for disc golf."- Vishak Sankaran

 

 

And to piggy back from my comment, Chris Mentz followed up on this comment, "Yes Vishak, I think, that's a great answer for it. I think as a closing comment on the golf segment. Vishak's team really studied the market. One of the things we found out is Bushnell was one of the most popular brand names in launch monitors, despite the fact that we weren't even in launch monitors, we were the second most recognized brand. So, we have permission to play in this category. And what Vishak and team are going to do is take a product offer kind of 80% of the features if you will, and bring it in a price point that's a fraction of what the pros pay for launch monitors. So exciting growth opportunity for us in golf."

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9 minutes ago, WallysWorld said:

And to piggy back from my comment, Chris Mentz followed up on this comment, "Yes Vishak, I think, that's a great answer for it. I think as a closing comment on the golf segment. Vishak's team really studied the market. One of the things we found out is Bushnell was one of the most popular brand names in launch monitors, despite the fact that we weren't even in launch monitors, we were the second most recognized brand. So, we have permission to play in this category. And what Vishak and team are going to do is take a product offer kind of 80% of the features if you will, and bring it in a price point that's a fraction of what the pros pay for launch monitors. So exciting growth opportunity for us in golf.vYes Vishak, I think, that's a great answer for it. I think as a closing comment on the golf segment. Vishak's team really studied the market. One of the things we found out is Bushnell was one of the most popular brand names in launch monitors, despite the fact that we weren't even in launch monitors, we were the second most recognized brand. So, we have permission to play in this category. And what Vishak and team are going to do is take a product offer kind of 80% of the features if you will, and bring it in a price point that's a fraction of what the pros pay for launch monitors. So exciting growth opportunity for us in golf."

that means original price is $14,995 without FSX (if you apply the 80%) discount you are referrencing, even though his remark is towards the features not the price.  So again what does that mean for software? 

 

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7 minutes ago, WallysWorld said:

that means original price is $14,995 without FSX (if you apply the 80%) discount you are referrencing, even though his remark is towards the features not the price.  So again what does that mean for software? 

 

He’s not saying 80% of the price. He’s saying 80% of the features “at a fraction” of the price. But yeah, I read the transcript and don’t see any answer, price-wise. It’s just the rumor mill that has it at 3k + subscription, but those same rumors have come from multiple places. 

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1 minute ago, Indygolf21 said:

He’s not saying 80% of the price. He’s saying 80% of the features “at a fraction” of the price. But yeah, I read the transcript and don’t see any answer, price-wise. It’s just the rumor mill that has it at 3k + subscription, but those same rumors have come from multiple places. 

exactly, I was just saying it's not from the investor call. As far as the "my friend who works on tour saw the pricing sheet" rumor....I can't prove that wrong.

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6 minutes ago, Indygolf21 said:

One thing I didn’t notice until this evening is that the main Bushnell web page about Launch Pro has the below language. Makes me wonder if this going to have some kind of putting analysis? 

 

 You can now practice any aspect of your game anywhere, anytime you want.

 

Maybe - but I think they are more likely just referring to the fact that you can pick it up and carry it with you to the course like a GCQuad more than anything else

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I hate playing the proverbial Telephone game and posting info from around the internet, but I saw somebody added this on another forum:

 

Hi All,
I got in touch with a foresight rep I was contacting about finding me an HMT in Canada. Figured I’d ask about the new unit. Here is the response I got

The new Foresight / Bushnell will be marketed in Canada as the GC3, and will be sold with FSX software + 10 standard courses.
A fully unlocked GC3 will be on sale for $9100 (+ provincial taxes and shipping fees from Ontario to you).
There will also be an option to have some Premium courses, which will include Pebble Beach, St. Andrews, Valderrama and Carnoustie ($ 1950).

For now, all of these units will have the full feature set and software access unlocked, they are also fully compatible with all available apps and software. For the US market (Bushnell) some features will be locked out and users will have to choose which feature they want to purchase. At the moment we are excluded from that decision , that may change in the future, whether for them or for us.

Measured Data - All GC2 data for the ball, and with one "Dot" on the face of the club it will provide club head speed, club head trajectory, smash factor and angle of attack.


it looks like the bushnell version will only be available in the US and will allow some type of pay for features you want.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, herdtlocker said:

I hate playing the proverbial Telephone game and posting info from around the internet, but I saw somebody added this on another forum:

 

Hi All,
I got in touch with a foresight rep I was contacting about finding me an HMT in Canada. Figured I’d ask about the new unit. Here is the response I got

The new Foresight / Bushnell will be marketed in Canada as the GC3, and will be sold with FSX software + 10 standard courses.
A fully unlocked GC3 will be on sale for $9100 (+ provincial taxes and shipping fees from Ontario to you).
There will also be an option to have some Premium courses, which will include Pebble Beach, St. Andrews, Valderrama and Carnoustie ($ 1950).

For now, all of these units will have the full feature set and software access unlocked, they are also fully compatible with all available apps and software. For the US market (Bushnell) some features will be locked out and users will have to choose which feature they want to purchase. At the moment we are excluded from that decision , that may change in the future, whether for them or for us.

Measured Data - All GC2 data for the ball, and with one "Dot" on the face of the club it will provide club head speed, club head trajectory, smash factor and angle of attack.


it looks like the bushnell version will only be available in the US and will allow some type of pay for features you want.

 

 

 

I'd assume that $9100 is CAD which would be $7228 USD as of today.

 

I personally don't think the GC3 (non-US) and the Bushnell Launch Pro (US) are going to offer the same features or be priced the same - even though they look identical.

 

I reread the press release on the SEC's website again today and it specifically mentions that they have secured a "domestic partnership agreement" with foresight.

 

I think that wording is important.

 

My guess is that as some people have already mentioned in this thread, there is more of a market for a $3,000 sim for home use within the US (based on size of homes etc.). For this reason, Foresight teamed up with Bushnell (Vista Outdoor - a publicly traded company much bigger than itself) to be able to offer the launch monitor at a lower price to US customers.

 

I think it is still going to be marketed as more of a "GC3" internationally and more of an upgrade to the GC2 based on what we've seen so far. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, herdtlocker said:

I hate playing the proverbial Telephone game and posting info from around the internet, but I saw somebody added this on another forum:

 

Hi All,
I got in touch with a foresight rep I was contacting about finding me an HMT in Canada. Figured I’d ask about the new unit. Here is the response I got

The new Foresight / Bushnell will be marketed in Canada as the GC3, and will be sold with FSX software + 10 standard courses.
A fully unlocked GC3 will be on sale for $9100 (+ provincial taxes and shipping fees from Ontario to you).
There will also be an option to have some Premium courses, which will include Pebble Beach, St. Andrews, Valderrama and Carnoustie ($ 1950).

For now, all of these units will have the full feature set and software access unlocked, they are also fully compatible with all available apps and software. For the US market (Bushnell) some features will be locked out and users will have to choose which feature they want to purchase. At the moment we are excluded from that decision , that may change in the future, whether for them or for us.

Measured Data - All GC2 data for the ball, and with one "Dot" on the face of the club it will provide club head speed, club head trajectory, smash factor and angle of attack.


it looks like the bushnell version will only be available in the US and will allow some type of pay for features you want.

 

 

So those in the US looking for a cheaper option would go with Bushnell price offering and those that want better features go through FS? I wonder what the price comparisons would be between the two? If anything, I purchased golf equipment in CAD and had it delivered to US and it was a lot cheaper.  

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2 hours ago, WallysWorld said:

So those in the US looking for a cheaper option would go with Bushnell price offering and those that want better features go through FS? I wonder what the price comparisons would be between the two? If anything, I purchased golf equipment in CAD and had it delivered to US and it was a lot cheaper.  

 

To me, it seems like what the rep is saying is that you are going to be able to pick what you want when you buy the bushnell version (unlock 1 dot data, different software, etc.) for a price. 

 

But internationally you are going to be forced to buy the unit with all features and software. 

 

So basically just like people theorized in this thread, in the US it's most likely gonna be $2,999 for just the unit with ball data, but with everything unlocked it will probably go all the way up to $7k.

Edited by DinoSpumoni228
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1 minute ago, DinoSpumoni228 said:

 

To me, it seems like what the rep is saying is that you are going to be able to pick what you want when you buy the bushnell version (unlock 1 dot data, differents software, etc.) for a price. 

 

But internationally you are going to be forced to buy the unit with all features and software. 

 

So basically just like people theorized in this thread, in the US it's most likely gonna be $2,999 for just the unit with ball data, but with everything unlocked it will probably go all the way up to $7k.

yeah no thanks, I would rather go with international version vs the stripped out lm. 

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5 hours ago, jcrews5508 said:

Maybe I don’t know enough about the GC2 but if this is just a GC2 replacement it’s not serving a new market it’s serving the same market with an upgraded product. If the GC2 was highly accurate and offered the same data points what is really being gained other than a Bushnell sticker on the front?

 

Thats like apple saying they have a new and exciting product for everyone when upgrading from one iPhone to the next. 

 

That's exactly what it is except you get a 10 year newer device.  GC2's are great, but most of them are old and the components will start breaking at some point.  Even if this unit is measuring the same thing, but doing it with newer, better cameras and other components there is absolutely a market.

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2 minutes ago, BrewingSim said:

 

That's exactly what it is except you get a 10 year newer device.  GC2's are great, but most of them are old and the components will start breaking at some point.  Even if this unit is measuring the same thing, but doing it with newer, better cameras and other components there is absolutely a market.

I never said there was not a market. I said if it’s capturing the same data and priced just like the GC2 its capturing the same market as the GC2. The Bushnell advertisement so far has been marketing it as this will be some kind of new monitor for a larger group of golfers. Based on what people are hypothesizing I don’t know that that is the case.If I have to spend $7500 for club data that Won’t exactly be opening this device up to a whole new group of buyers who weren’t already buying high end monitors.

 

Still hoping the unit comes with ball data for 3K would even be willing to spend another 1000 on club data I don’t really care for all the sim stuff so I’m hoping you can option that off.

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Remember, Canada pricing has a GST in it. What is it now, roughly 10%? And 5/4 swap?

 

So, basically, there's going to be a GC3, not available in America with software in it and active for about US$6k, and there's going to be a baseline model in the US available for $3k, plus tax, plus software, plus add-ons, plus subscription… essentially, it's Bushnell that's saying "we'll take these at cost, pay you an agreed margin, and use our distribution power to get subs and software for our margin".

 

Like people that rent software anyhow. America is fully engulfed in subscription mayhem. I won't call it that. You don't get to keep it when you're done, so it's a rental.

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44 minutes ago, jcrews5508 said:

I never said there was not a market. I said if it’s capturing the same data and priced just like the GC2 its capturing the same market as the GC2. The Bushnell advertisement so far has been marketing it as this will be some kind of new monitor for a larger group of golfers. Based on what people are hypothesizing I don’t know that that is the case.If I have to spend $7500 for club data that Won’t exactly be opening this device up to a whole new group of buyers who weren’t already buying high end monitors.

 

Still hoping the unit comes with ball data for 3K would even be willing to spend another 1000 on club data I don’t really care for all the sim stuff so I’m hoping you can option that off.

On the other hand, Foresight/Bushnell are releasing a product with most of the same features as the GC2 at a much cheaper point of entry kinda like an iPhone SE. Still an iPhone but $399. That’s a whole new market of people who won’t pay $1200 for an iPhone. The difference being this is a software locked product so you have the ability to make it like the more expensive models should you choose. I’ve seen many people on this forum and others say they started with a skytrak or mevo+ and then eventually ended up in the 5k+ launch monitor market. This is capturing those people who will continuously pump money into this hobby/sport. I would love all the features of a GC2 but I’m not willing to drop 5 grand at once. A low upfront cost that gets me Foresight level accuracy is a good first step. I’ll add the other features later.

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2 hours ago, WallysWorld said:

yeah no thanks, I would rather go with international version vs the stripped out lm. 

Not sure you understand - the only difference between the two is the fact that you don't have to buy the most expensive/upgraded version of the unit in the US, but still can if you want to.

 

Internationally you have to buy the one that is most expensive.

 

Not sure how that would be a negative for the US version.

Edited by DinoSpumoni228
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31 minutes ago, DinoSpumoni228 said:

Not sure you understand - the only difference between the two is the fact that you don't have to buy the most expensive/upgraded version of the unit in the US, but still can if you want to.

 

Internationally you have to buy the one that is most expensive.

 

Not sure how that would be a negative for the US version.

While all of this speculation, if they are giving you the option to get software or features- the user will have to pay monthly/annual fees that add up over time. It's like renting- you could be paying rent for 25 yrs but you never own the property. In the end you are wasting money. While I understand the pros and cons to subscription fees- this can get costly and would rather just purchase the unit outright then to be paying monthly for features. Skytrak has used this model and lost business as soon as Mevo + launched without game improvement fees and offered 5 free courses that you keep. 

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38 minutes ago, WallysWorld said:

While all of this speculation, if they are giving you the option to get software or features- the user will have to pay monthly/annual fees that add up over time. It's like renting- you could be paying rent for 25 yrs but you never own the property. In the end you are wasting money. While I understand the pros and cons to subscription fees- this can get costly and would rather just purchase the unit outright then to be paying monthly for features. Skytrak has used this model and lost business as soon as Mevo + launched without game improvement fees and offered 5 free courses that you keep. 

If they intend to use the flat fee based model, then this will be a home run as the GC2 + HMT without FSX was adding up close to $10K. 

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54 minutes ago, WallysWorld said:

If they intend to use the flat fee based model, then this will be a home run as the GC2 + HMT without FSX was adding up close to $10K. 

 

It will be interesting to see what happens to the GC2 market once this launches. I'd be more than happy to pick up a discounted GC2/HMT for home use. 

 

Side question, what do you guys think about 1 dot mode? Does it provide sufficient data to justify a potentially material upgrade? 

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      Dylan Frittelli's Callaway Apex TCB Sand Wedge (1-of-1 proto) – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Bryson DeChambeau's Cobra King LTDx 5-degree driver – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      NeuroPeak Pro NTel Belt - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      JumboMax JMX Zen Lite grips – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
       
      Cameron Champ WITB has the new Ping i525

       
      Bryson's WITB has the new Cobra LTDx Driver 

       
      Phils new Rogue Driver

       
      Bryson's LAGolf Shaft in the driver

       
      Xander has the triple diamond "S" driver

       
      New SuperStroke grips for 2022

       
        • Like
      • 8 replies
    • 2022 The American Express WITB Photos (Spotted: New gear for 2022) - Discussion & Links
      Please put and comments or questions here
       
       
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2022 American Express
      New Taylor-Made putters - 2022 American Express
      New Odyssey putters - 2022 American Express
      New Axis 1 model putter - - 2022 American Express
      Patrick Cantlay - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Mitsubishi MMT putter shaft - 2022 American Express
      Ping putter - 2022 American Express
      Abraham Ancer - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Jason Dufner - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Will Zalatoris - WITB - 2022 American Express
      The Surgeon 6109 wedge - 2022 American Express
      LA Golf "DJ Series" shafts (2022 American Express)
       
       
       
      2022 American Express - Monday #1
       
       
       
       
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      • 40 replies
    • Sony Open Pics from January 11, 2022 Part 1
      I was able to get out to the Sony Open today to take a few pics.  I guess due to Covid precautions they kept the spectators pretty far from the players.  Also due to camera restrictions they've put in place, I wasn't able to bring the big lens like I normally do. Hopefully they'll ease up on the ropes and I'll be able to get more pics tomorrow!
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      • 22 replies
    • 2022 Callaway Rogue ST drivers (in-hand photos)
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max driver
       

       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max D driver
       
      2021 Callaway Rogue ST Max 
       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max LS driver

       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Triple Diamond LS

       
      Rogue ST exploded views
      • 216 replies
    • Titleist Vokey SM9 Link on Wedge Works Coming Soon- UPDATED Pics Added Pg 4
      Looks like there is a link on Titleist Wedge Works for the new Vokey SM9, but doesn't show any photos yet.
       
      https://www.vokey.com/product/WM137.html#start=4
      • 237 replies

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