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Looking for tips on how to shallow the club more and reduce flipping at impact (video included)


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Hello all,

 

I've been trying to shallow the club more working with the feeling of swinging more around my body, to give me more margin of error by allowing the club face to stay on plane longer. I also have a tendency to hit fat and thin shots at times and being very flippy. No matter what I do I cant stop swaying off the ball and am unable to increase the forward angle of the club at impact. Its very vertical, adding a lot of loft and costing me distance, and contributing to fats and thins.

 

Any help would be appreciated. I have a feeling its related to a lack of turn at the hips.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Wormkiller
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 I need to leave the house so can't reply at length. Your understanding of the swing is flawed. Integrate these two ideas into your game and you'll be in a lot better shape to get back to the ball. 

 

Your current setup and takeaway create a chain reaction that means you have to throw the hands to hit the ball. 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, iSwing said:

Little too much weight in butt, legs not supporting upper loading sequence by not extending and shifting properly during move away to the top- club gets too far inside.  Therefore club bounces out and steep from top instead of gaining centripetal load.  Driver hands way to far out, bunches of stuff really, correct one piece at time, starting with legs.


Bottom line result:   you are accelerating way to soon, you're about spent by P6 which is where the all the fun really begins. 

Appreciate the advice but I'm struggling to make sense of what you're talking about. What do you mean by starting with the legs?

Edited by Wormkiller
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45 minutes ago, Wormkiller said:

Appreciate the advice but I'm struggling to make sense of what you're talking about. What do you mean by starting with the legs?

You need to create a better base for your swing by setting up with your weight in the correct place. If you don't everything else is a compensation. 

 

You then have a classic amateurish takeaway that forces you into even more compensations that you're not good enough to time effectively. 

 

That's why I linked those videos.. If you don't deal with those huge issues you're going nowhere. 

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@iSwing @TheDeanAbides I found those videos you linked really awesome. Haven't had time to get to the range but have done some work at home. I've tried to focus on reducing how inside I take the club on the backswing. Even looking at this swing I believe I still take it too far under the plane going back.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Wormkiller said:

@iSwing @TheDeanAbides I found those videos you linked really awesome. Haven't had time to get to the range but have done some work at home. I've tried to focus on reducing how inside I take the club on the backswing. Even looking at this swing I believe I still take it too far under the plane going back.

 

 

Allow your hip to move. To create a proper pivot your trail leg needs to straighten. Currently your hips are too level and restricted, but it's getting there. 

 

Edit: I just noticed what iswing mentioned about your shoulders. They're still turning too flat, which is impacting your hips. Look at how Justin Rose is rotating around his spine - there's no cheating by lifting out to finish the backswing. 
 

 

Edited by TheDeanAbides
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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Allow your hip to move. To create a proper pivot your trail leg needs to straighten. Currently your hips are too level and restricted, but it's getting there. 

 

Edit: I just noticed what iswing mentioned about your shoulders. They're still turning too flat, which is impacting your hips. Look at how Justin Rose is rotating around his spine - there's no cheating by lifting out to finish the backswing. 
 

 

Thanks for this, Ill work on these things. I think I've had the wrong idea about maintaining spine angle in the backswing, like what AMG talked about, but now I realise that this is maintained by properly rotating around the spine, not keeping the shoulders flat.

 

Would rotating around the spine and rotating the hips in turn create more hip rotation in the downswing? Because I realise this is not happening for me - at impact my belt buckle would be perpendicular to the target, rather than anywhere near facing it, like the example of Justin Rose.

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

 

Edited by Wormkiller
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Just now, Wormkiller said:

Thanks for this, Ill work on these things. I think I've been focused on maintaining spine angle in the backswing, like what AMG talked about, but now I realise that this is maintained by properly rotating around the spine, not keeping the shoulders flat.

 

Would rotating around the spine and rotating the hips in turn create more hip rotation in the downswing? Because I realise this is not happening for me - at impact my belt buckle would be perpendicular to the target, rather than anywhere near facing it.

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

 

Don't worry about your hips in the downswing. Honestly, more swings have been ruined by working on what the hips do in the 0.2 seconds of the downswing than anything else. 

Get yourself into a solid position at the top and then work on transition, but it has to be done in the correct order... and it'll take time. Lots of time and lots of reps. 

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2 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Don't worry about your hips in the downswing. Honestly, more swings have been ruined by working on what the hips do in the 0.2 seconds of the downswing than anything else. 

Get yourself into a solid position at the top and then work on transition, but it has to be done in the correct order... and it'll take time. Lots of time and lots of reps. 

Cheers. Just confirming that my shoulders be pointing more towards the ball at the top of the swing?

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Just now, Wormkiller said:

Cheers. Just confirming that my shoulders be pointing more towards the ball at the top of the swing?

Yes. Exactly like JR in that slomo. It'll depend on your flexibility and how you move your hips (gotta let that right hip move freely), but you have to stop when the rotation is done. Your backswing will feel like it's over in no time at all - like it's a half swing.

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Work chronologically.  Fix the posture first.  Butt needs to be sucked in more instead of being so far outside the heels.  Shoulders need to be 'rolled' and the chin should be pointing downward.  The reason you're over the top is your pivot doesn't allow you to create an effective sequence and naturally allow the hands to apply force to the grip to shallow out the club.  It's most likely all for not unless you change the address position because the body can't pivot like you want to from that address position.

 

 

 

 

RH

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4 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

Work chronologically.  Fix the posture first.  Butt needs to be sucked in more instead of being so far outside the heels.  Shoulders need to be 'rolled' and the chin should be pointing downward.  The reason you're over the top is your pivot doesn't allow you to create an effective sequence and naturally allow the hands to apply force to the grip to shallow out the club.  It's most likely all for not unless you change the address position because the body can't pivot like you want to from that address position.

 

 

 

 

RH

Good point about the posture. 

 

OP, you can work on this by setting up with your heels a couple of inches away from a wall. 

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Can't shallow when you are already so flat. It's a false pretense that shallow = flat. The best players all take it back relatively steep before shallowing into the ball. It's a dynamic athletic move that increases speed and control which is the opposite of what you are doing when you force the backswing so shallow that the only way you can hit the ball is to actually come over the top steeper.

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The easiest way to shallow the club is to have a grip that ensures the club is in a good biometric plane on the way down before impact. A lot of golfers like myself (at times) don't grip the club correctly so it makes more sense to worry about the planes as that would give us a better chance of hitting the ball straight. However, with a correct grip and a focus on flexibility in the arms and shoulders and legs the hands will soon find an efficient biomentric plane before impact. The way you take it back does not matter, just look at Miller Barber, Jim Furyk, Matthew Wolff, etc. Some people claim these are super athletes that can somehow square the club with extraordinary force and movements before impact but Miller Barber swung with his pronounced loop way into old age. I've always had a loop on my backswing because I can't turn my hips early but when I have the correct technique I can hit it long and straight. 

Edited by chipa

 

Big Bertha Titanium - Big Bertha 4, 7w - Titleist DCI 990B 5i-PW, DCI 962 4i, LW  - 8802

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24 minutes ago, chipa said:

The easiest way to shallow the club is to have a grip that ensures the club is in a good biometric plane on the way down before impact. A lot of golfers like myself (at times) don't grip the club correctly so it makes more sense to worry about the planes as that would give us a better chance of hitting the ball straight. However, with a correct grip and a focus on flexibility in the arms and shoulders and legs the hands will soon find an efficient biomentric plane before impact. The way you take it back does not matter, just look at Miller Barber, Jim Furyk, Matthew Wolff, etc. Some people claim these are super athletes that can somehow square the club with extraordinary force and movements before impact but Miller Barber swung with his pronounced loop way into old age. I've always had a loop on my backswing because I can't turn my hips early but when I have the correct technique I can hit it long and straight. 

This kind of 'advice' is so harmful. Using extraordinary outliers as proof that backswing doesn't matter ruins the chances of average players ever getting better. All of those players (Matt Wolff aside because his BS is much more neutral than it looks) made huge compensations that they could time because of their extraordinary talent. 

For the average hacker who wants to play half decent golf, it's much better to do that from the most neutral position possible because it's easier to maintain. There's a very good reason why the vast majority of good players look so similar at the top. 

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1 minute ago, TheDeanAbides said:

This kind of 'advice' is so harmful. Using extraordinary outliers as proof that backswing doesn't matter ruins the chances of average players ever getting better. All of those players (Matt Wolff aside because his BS is much more neutral than it looks) made huge compensations that they could time because of their extraordinary talent. 

For the average hacker who wants to play half decent golf, it's much better to do that from the most neutral position possible because it's easier to maintain. There's a very good reason why the vast majority of good players look so similar at the top. 

 

Speaking of being harmful I have played at least 1000 rounds of public course golf and I see that the majority of high hc'ers with a poor grip and "disconnected" swing try to generate clubhead speed with a very fast shoulder turn(more than many pros) and/or pulling the left side vigorously. 

 

Big Bertha Titanium - Big Bertha 4, 7w - Titleist DCI 990B 5i-PW, DCI 962 4i, LW  - 8802

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2 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Speaking of being harmful I have played at least 1000 rounds of public course golf and I see that the majority of high hc'ers with a poor grip and "disconnected" swing try to generate clubhead speed with a very fast shoulder turn(more than many pros) and/or pulling the left side vigorously. 

Those things are also incredibly harmful, and they come from a complete misunderstanding of the correct sequence and how to feel that sequence. 

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1 minute ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Those things are also incredibly harmful, and they come from a complete misunderstanding of the correct sequence and how to feel that sequence. 

 

Teaching a similar backswing and downswing plane w/o a correct understanding of how the hands need to be promotes people swinging out of their shoes. That's the reality of most golf instruction as one sees on public courses.

 

Big Bertha Titanium - Big Bertha 4, 7w - Titleist DCI 990B 5i-PW, DCI 962 4i, LW  - 8802

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Just now, chipa said:

 

Teaching a similar backswing and downswing plane w/o a correct understanding of how the hands need to be promotes people swinging out of their shoes. That's the reality of most golf instruction as one sees on public courses.

I'm sorry, but what are you saying here? There isn't a decent pro out there who doesn't start with a correct grip. Perhaps these guys you're seeing with their terrible grips and spinny shoulders haven't actually had any lessons, or if they have they've gotten bored and given up instead of putting the graft in. 

Having a good grip is essential to good golf and it has to match up with the rest of the player's fundamentals, but it doesn't follow that a bad grip promotes swinging out of the shoes - the two may correlate, but they're not necessary causative. 

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15 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I'm sorry, but what are you saying here? There isn't a decent pro out there who doesn't start with a correct grip. Perhaps these guys you're seeing with their terrible grips and spinny shoulders haven't actually had any lessons, or if they have they've gotten bored and given up instead of putting the graft in. 

Having a good grip is essential to good golf and it has to match up with the rest of the player's fundamentals, but it doesn't follow that a bad grip promotes swinging out of the shoes - the two may correlate, but they're not necessary causative. 

 

With all due respect I've seen lots of high hc'ers with a better grip than me that can't generate anywhere near their maximum potential clubhead speed, and a planar swing to boot. 

 

What one rarely sees in golf instruction is the forces that are involved in the hands that tells a lot more than just how the hands are placed on the club. The hands and forearms must oppose one another to be able to generate easy clubhead speed. Just holding the club correctly won't help the majority of golfers (from what I've personally seen) learn the importance of the forces involved. With all the golf instruction I've looked out for over 20 years I have seen very few instructors talk about this, Steve Elkington is one. 

 

Another misconception regarding the swing that has to do with how the hands work - "flipping is bad". Actually, learning to flip the hands is the natural progression in learning how to use the hands correctly. This is what I have learned in teaching a friend and my daughters how to swing.

 

Big Bertha Titanium - Big Bertha 4, 7w - Titleist DCI 990B 5i-PW, DCI 962 4i, LW  - 8802

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2 hours ago, chipa said:

 

With all due respect I've seen lots of high hc'ers with a better grip than me that can't generate anywhere near their maximum potential clubhead speed, and a planar swing to boot. 

 

What one rarely sees in golf instruction is the forces that are involved in the hands that tells a lot more than just how the hands are placed on the club. The hands and forearms must oppose one another to be able to generate easy clubhead speed. Just holding the club correctly won't help the majority of golfers (from what I've personally seen) learn the importance of the forces involved. With all the golf instruction I've looked out for over 20 years I have seen very few instructors talk about this, Steve Elkington is one. 

 

Another misconception regarding the swing that has to do with how the hands work - "flipping is bad". Actually, learning to flip the hands is the natural progression in learning how to use the hands correctly. This is what I have learned in teaching a friend and my daughters how to swing.

I'm not going to go into a debate with you when it doesn't seem like we're communicating effectively. 

 

Regarding Elk: he learnt all that stuff from Martin Ayers. He's worth checking out. 

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Not sure my technique would work for others.  Anyway, I shallow out my swing by teeing the ball up to max tee height 3.25".

 

I have never been a high ball hitter, but that magically forces me to adjust my mechanics, so my AoA is a bit more + and it's a solid crack.  When I tee the ball at normal height, half the ball is above the crown, it doesn't feel right to me, go figure.  When I want a low bullet, I tee it really low, but won't make a habit of it.

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You are just ingraining your current bad habits  and wasting your time when you practice a full swing . Before working on shallowing , you need to practice much shorter,  much slower swings . 
Start with “pelvic punches”. Take the club back to about 7:30 - 8:00 with your wrists close to fully set  and stop. Then pump the club a little ( take it back a very small amount  more ) and then hit the ball. Feel  that your entire down swing your is driven ONLY via torso rotation. 
Then and ONLY after you are consistently compressing the ball with pelvic punches , graduate to 9-3 freezers. These are similar to pelvic punches , only longer and with more speed. Perform these 9-3 freezers at 1/2 speed. 
Then ONLY after you are compressing the ball with 9-3 freezers, graduate to 9-3 swings . Again these should be performed at 1/2 speed.  The same feeling regarding torso rotation predominating  going down should be present. 9-3 swings are more complicated than freezers because they also involve making a backswing

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