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Could a (1)4 handicap win the Open Championship in the 1860's


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Just some food for thought on a course that has IMO effectively mitigated some of the modern equipment gains (most pros arent hitting driver too often on St Andrews)

 

First year a champion golfer broke 80 on the old course:  1895

First year a champion golfer broke 70 on the old course: 1927

Next Champion golfer to break 70 1955

 

Lots of 90's being thrown up in the early years over quite a few tournaments.

Edited by vallygolf
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6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

For some reason many think a 4 cap shoots 76 day in and day out.  When in reality on a course rated at 72.0 they will average about 79.  Others look at this thread and think the course -and rules for that matter as Richard just noted- was the same as a 6000 course today.  Sounds easy right?  
Prestwick was 12 holes totaling 3800 yards.  The first was a par 5 measuring 578!  Based on the conditions of the day I am guessing there would be very little roll to shots so it certainly played a bit longer than you would think. Putting would have been a crapshoot as well.

Makes Young Tom’s first round in 1870 look pretty good in my eyes…

 

Tommy Morris's first round of 47 (3-5-3-5-6-3-3-3-4-3-4-5

 

I'm pretty sure they were also playing with 6 inch holes then.

 

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4 minutes ago, sekrah said:

 

I'm pretty sure they were also playing with 6 inch holes then.

 

Looks like they were modern size in Scotland since 1829.

 

Golf holes all over the world today measure 4¼ inches (even in metric countries, where that is approximately 10.8 centimetres), and they have been this size since 1891. In that year, the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews (R&A), at the time golf’s sole governing body, issued a new rule book stipulating, amongst other things, that the hole size should be standard on golf courses everywhere at 4¼ inches.

The reason for that precise diameter is that Royal Musselburgh Golf Club had invented, in 1829, the first known hole-cutter. It is still in existence and on display at the club, and had become the accepted norm at clubs in that part of Scotland, which is the home of golf. It measured exactly 4¼ inches although, sadly, no-one knows why.

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2 hours ago, sekrah said:

Only if I were born in 1850, and played a sport that was just invited and only 14 others took seriously. I'd be recognized 170 years later as one of the greatest golfers of all time.  It's amazing how just being born in that century fused them with so much phenomenal talent.

 

 

 

Actually, golf had been played for at least 100 years before 1850.  Old Tom Morris, who was born in 1821 by the way, had an older cousin named Allan Robertson who was able to make a living in the 1840's making clubs, balls and overlooking the greens at St Andrews.  He was widely considered the best player in Scotland at that time.  Old Tom grew up hitting whiskey corks in the streets of St Andrews with a sawed off golf club, and other kids did the same thing.  They developed the same skills as modern players, perhaps even more so, looking at the clubs of the period.

 

Could a 4 handicap dropped at Prestwick or St Andrews with modern equipment beat those guys?  Perhaps, but he would have to play a few years to get accustomed to playing the conditions (hitting out of wheel ruts), the vagaries of the rules, and the rich guys standing a few feet away wagering on each of his shots. 

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
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1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Looks like they were modern size in Scotland since 1829.

 

Golf holes all over the world today measure 4¼ inches (even in metric countries, where that is approximately 10.8 centimetres), and they have been this size since 1891. In that year, the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews (R&A), at the time golf’s sole governing body, issued a new rule book stipulating, amongst other things, that the hole size should be standard on golf courses everywhere at 4¼ inches.

The reason for that precise diameter is that Royal Musselburgh Golf Club had invented, in 1829, the first known hole-cutter. It is still in existence and on display at the club, and had become the accepted norm at clubs in that part of Scotland, which is the home of golf. It measured exactly 4¼ inches although, sadly, no-one knows why.

I have heard two theories on the size of the golf hole.

1. Players had to grab sand from inside the hole to use for their next tee shot.  They measured the width of the guy with the biggest hand, and that became standard.

2. At one of the clubs (might have been Musselburg), they started to use drain pipe to line the hole.  The drain pipe was 4-1/4 diameter.

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Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
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9 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

Though I've only responded for her once in the years that she's been on the board, and this is just a flyer, though it is neither, lol. One, she doesn't troll and two, she's sharper than me, and I ain't lunch meat Brotha😉

 

That said, and my respect for you aside, as you're in my top sphere of most respected members on this or any board, I agree with her and disagree with anyone that believes for a second that a legit 4~ could compete against say, James Braid. This may go to the fact that all that I read(and I can't speak for Madison on this) was the title, NOT the OP, so if there were stipulations, caveats, etc., I missed them. I told her not to post in this thread as she's a Professional, and as such, she is speaking to a mind set that 98%+ of Ams cannot understand, unless they are in that less than that 2% group that are legit Plusses, Elite Ams and have competed against both other Elite Ams and/or Pros. It's definitely one of those things that if one hasn't "been there done that," then there is no friggin way that they can draw from their prior experiences to have the mindset, mentality & mental game that she is speaking of on a golf course under the gun against an Elite Am or Professional in either money golf or tourney golf. 


I took it, and in talking to Maddie, I know that she took it this way also, in that the OP was speaking of transferring a 4~ back to that time period, with him using that time period's clubs, balls, rules(please remember that the rules were muuuuuuuuuch stricter regarding relief(non-existent😂), etc. I don't care if there were eight Players, or what the day job of those eight Players were. If they were amongst the best Players in Scotland/Ireland, then a 4~ would have no chance. 
 

I get that if ya literally took, say James Braid's winning scores of 309, 318, 299, 300 and 291, that those actually fall into that 4~ish cap range, at least the 300+ scores do, however where I am coming from(and Madison) is that that Braid had the mindset of a National Champion, actually a 5-Time National Champion, and that 4~ that you're speaking of taking back to that time period, obviously would not be a 4~ back then(he'd probably be closer to 10-12 ~ IF he's a legit 4~ today) and Braid would unceremoniously kick his *ss, again, again and again for as long as he showed up, lolol😂😂

 

It goes to MINDSET, MENTAL TOUGHNESS & CONFIDENCE and that my friend, is TIMELESS and CANNOT BE GIVEN, GIFTED OR BOUGHT!!!

 

It may only be EARNED!!


A Champion is a Champion, regardless of the rules, equipment technology, era, etc., and a 4~ from today, IS NOT A CHAMPION, I don't care if he's a 10-Time friggin Flight Winner, he would NEVER have a Champion's Mindset or Mental toughness or Confidence to plant the peg, no strokes, and Play a Champion!!

 

They are not even REMOTELY qualified to play in their Club's Championship Flight Championship today for chrissakes, if it's a legit Player's Club😂😂

 

The Play in nothing but Cap events, nickel & dime nassaus and against other 4- to 7~ cappers(at least at our Club, Oakmont, Fox Chapel GC, etc.) either gettin or givin strokes from the WHITE tees😂😂

 

Now if you want to say that say someone like myself when I was in the game, a solid +2.8, 4-Time Club Champion who beat a future USGA National Champion(he would win that 5 years later) for the then most prestigious MP title in the western part of the state, or @Obee, an uber competitive and decorated So Cal Mid-Am could be transported back to 1880-1990 and be competitive, ok, I will entertain that. I am not saying that I could beat Braid, and I will not speak for David, as obviously this is conjecture and my opinion, however regardless of the clubs, rules, etc., I, David and other Legit Successful PLUSSES have the MINDSET, Mental Game & Confidence to compete. We may not win, however the stage, and I don't care if it's in front of thousands or in a friggin goat pasture🐐in 1890 with only the goats and caddies present, nor the game, stakes  or competitor would EVER overwhelm us. A 4~, provided that he's NOT a former Elite Plus Am or Pro who's cap has gone north due to life getting in the way, well, a regular legit 4~ would be like a child🧒🏼 Playing amongst Men. I'm not being arrogant, just stating fact and ANY Plus or Pro on this board that has had a 4~ in their group would say the same. With a tournament or money on a shot against either a Plus or a Pro, a 4~ couldn't even control their breathing, much less their club head & ball😂😂😂.
 

THAT is the mindset that you could transport back to 1890 or ANY era!!
 

One does not just gift Mind Set, Mental Toughness & Confidence under the gun!!! James Braid EARNED those five National Championships and the Mindset, mental toughness and confidence that came with them, and you're gonna seriously tell me that some 4~, and I don't care if he's a 10-Time Flight winner, is gonna plant it with James Braid and compete with him????

 

Brotha, if you were anyone else, you know what my next acronym/post woulda been😂😂😂🤙
 

The bottom line with me, and I known that Madison agrees cuz we had the same Teacher, and that is that you can give someone strokes, equipment, etc. however the ONE thing that CANNOT BE GIVEN, is a Player's mindset, mental toughness and Confidence!!

 

Not to disparage any 4~'s, cuz I've Played with the best 4's around, from Pennsylvania to Florida and New York to California and they couldn't compete with any of us that were Plusses or Pros😂😂😂

 

And you're gonna tell me that those 4~'s could go back in time and compete against much less beat James Braid????

 

Sorry Brotha, I ain't trollin but I also ain't bitin, lol

 

What I want is for either a LEGIT Plus or Pro to tell me that my above thoughts are off base!!!
 

A PLUS or PRO!!

 

I just noticed in your post that you mentioned taking today's equipment back to that time period and if that's the case then this is hands down unequivocally THE dumbest thread that I've seen in my 9 years on the board, I'M the idiot for even responding😂😂😂

 

IF that is what the OP posted then forget everything that I've posted as I would not even have responded to such a thread if I had read the OP instead of just the title.

 

If you're just talking about taking a 4~ back to that period, dropping him in with him Playing their equipment, rules, etc., then as far as you & I go Brotha, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, lol🤙
 

I hope that you're well and having a great season👊
Richard

You got me Richard, I never looked who the poster was, if I did I would have been well aware it was not a troll.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one though. In 1860 these events only attracted 3 or 4 golfer with a chance at winning. I don't the Tom Morris and Willie Park has the battle tested nerve of a more modern pro. 

 

I happen to play between 4 and 8 these days, and my average tournament score would have me winning the 1860 open by 16 strokes. I appreciate course lengths and conditions would be very different, but still fell pretty good about my chances and I am a soft 5😉. Of course anything can happen in one round, but if 8 solid 4 cappers took on the 8 players in 1860 open, I suspect they would at-least take the top three spots. 

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11 hours ago, 2bGood said:

You got me Richard, I never looked who the poster was, if I did I would have been well aware it was not a troll.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one though. In 1860 these events only attracted 3 or 4 golfer with a chance at winning. I don't the Tom Morris and Willie Park has the battle tested nerve of a more modern pro. 

 

I happen to play between 4 and 8 these days, and my average tournament score would have me winning the 1860 open by 16 strokes. I appreciate course lengths and conditions would be very different, but still fell pretty good about my chances and I am a soft 5😉. Of course anything can happen in one round, but if 8 solid 4 cappers took on the 8 players in 1860 open, I suspect they would at-least take the top three spots. 

Bro, I just noticed that you started the thread😂😂😂😂

 

Right hand to God ✋, I never look at who the OP is or their OP so as not to be influenced😂😂

 

Sometimes my focus can be myopic, and I can be such an *sshole, lol😝😜🤪

 

Stay Well Brotha👊
RP

Edited by Forged4ever
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In the end, only three things matter~ <br /><br />How much that you loved...<br /><br />How mightily that you lived...<br /><br />How gracefully that you accepted both victory & defeat...<br /><br /><br /><br />GHIN: Beefeater 24

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On 7/22/2021 at 1:38 PM, sekrah said:

 

 

This..  I don't get all these people acting like this is some huge disadvantage that a modern player couldn't figure out in 1 or 2 holes.  5 strokes a round?  Gtfo.

 

Yes a 4 handicap would not only win if they time-travelled back there with modern equipment, they would likely win by a pole.  For the same reason any decent college pitcher today would win about 15 Cy Youngs in the early 1900s because no one was throwing mid-90s or snapping nasty sliders off back then.


And no, Tom Jones would have almost zero % chance to make the modern pro tour if he were time-machined to the future to play with modern equipment, even with a year of practicing with it.  Athletically, human bodies have evolved very fast from those days. 

 

 

I don't buy this at all. A 4 cap slapping it around with his buddies on a Saturday aft is not the same thing as playing for a national championship of any kind. That in itself is worth 10 shots a round. Those old guys would eat the 4 for lunch. National champs are mental pit bulls. 4 caps are mental marsh mellows in comparison.

Edited by Spongerob
spelling...again.
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23 minutes ago, Spongerob said:

I don't buy this at all. A 4 cap slapping it around with his buddies on a Saturday aft is not the same thing as playing for a national championship of any kind. That in itself is worth 10 shots a round. Those old guys would eat the 4 for lunch. National champs are mental pit bulls. 4 caps are mental marsh mellows in comparison.

 

Young Tom Morris was literally the first golfer in history that could intentionally shape a shot..   Oh yeah, those guys were just absolutely untouchable beasts.  I'm sure the first pitcher to ever throw a curveball would compete with big league baseball players today too.  😂

 

 

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