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Arm versus body swing?


jl923
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I know this topic has been discussed so many times before. I took a few lessons from a gankas influenced instructor and we worked on more rotation but all I feel is I’m spinning left no release. Monte sometimes mentions “feel the back closed to target” and “get arms coming down faster” and I feel like this type of swing fits my stiff inflexible swing better. So which is it? Is a gankas swing not fit for me or am I missing something? 
 

Has anyone else dealt with this before?

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I follow the Gankas model.  I get most of my power from hip rotation/speed and late release being only 5'7.  Some golfers have slower hip rotation speed but faster arm speed and that's where they get their power which is fine.  It seems as though you fit the latter. 

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Milo Lines and, to some extent, Sam Goulden teach the same thing, I think the idea is there is no release when you're first learning the swing (i.e. drilling it). It's a "rigid motion" (my term). Later of course there is a release as otherwise you wouldn't hit the ball very far. It's good for people (like me) who can't avoid using their arms and hands to hit "at" the ball and as a result have poor sequencing.

 

Edited by nlk10010
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I have tried to play both ways, using the arms hard and then worked with Gankas.  For me, I couldn't control the face with my driver using the Gankas pivot with no arms.  I tilted right too early and would get dumped under.  I have found that blending them for me works best.  Chase fixed my pivot and now I try to squeeze my left arm against my peck and turn pretty hard, but I am also firing my arms at the same time.  Find what works for you.

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14 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Hand and Arms Emphasis

Other factors people talk about lately: Forearm vs. upper arm ratio. WRXer Mike Wheeler discusses this in Biomechanics and Swing Plane. The idea originated by golf instructor Mike Adams is that people whose forearms are shorter than upper arms often do better with flatter swings (Ben Hogan); those with longer forearms tend to do better with more upright swings (Jack Nicklaus).  Arm ratio proponents suggest that upright vs. flatter swings need different swing motions.

This is curious. My forearms are longer than my upper arms. And I feel like I have very minimal forearm rotation in my swing, not sure if that’s related. I’m probably just too stiff.

Gonna have to check that video out when I get offf from work. One question tho, sorry if this is answered in the video, the terms “flatter” and “upright”, do they refer to the level of incline of the arms relative to the ground?

Edited by Bocaji
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19 minutes ago, Bocaji said:

One question tho, ... the terms “flatter” and “upright”, do they refer to the level of incline of the arms relative to the ground?

 

image.png.a26170f0c18ad95154cfd8c3ad643e15.png

 

Here are pictures of Nicklaus and Hogan at the top of their golf swings. (Technically, Nicklaus not quite at top).

 

We can answer your question in terms of relationship of lead arm* (left arm for righties) in relation to the flat ground.

  • Nicklaus' left arm is pretty much vertical, very upright, ~ 90° angle to ground.
  • Hogan's left arm angle is flatter, ~ 45° angle.

In upright vs. flat, we're talking about a matter of emphasis. No swings full are completely upright or completely flat. Nicklaus swings more up and down than around, and Hogan swings more around than up and down.

 

I'll leave it to actual instructors to go into details.

 

In my case, I have a flatter swing although not as flat as Hogan's. Also, I now have a three-quarters swing at the top, barely to the ear, so it looks flatter than it is.  I just have to make sure I get good hand drop and work the shoulder under so I don't get too spinny.

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17 hours ago, jl923 said:

So the rotational model requires the hips to open but the shoulder stay squared? That’s a tough move for most?

No. Get that out of your head.   Everything starts back to the target within  .14 sec or less  in transition.     X factor happens in backswing  but not due to restricting anything.    If one has ribcage 90* and hips 45* rotated at the top and goal is to get enough open to hit a good shot then the gap between the ribcage and the hips has to change a lot in a short time. - .25 sec downswing.     In my example above if one got 20*open with ribcage and 25* with pelvis (Kevin Na gets around 20/25) then the ribcage needs to move 120* to the hips 70* to close that gap.    And X factor stretch is not really done either - amg has a video on this from their viewing lots of elite 3D swings.

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7_aZvBFriO/

 

all swing are rotational and lateral.  It is a blend not an either or as noted early in thread.

Edited by glk
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Gankas is just trying to get the average am golfer to open up. It's a pretty natural move for younger kids because they don't have the upper body strength yet to hit it far, you see a lot of the young guns that hit the tour with wide open bodies. They all started playing golf at a very young age and developed it there. There are benefits to it but many ways to swing.

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On 7/22/2021 at 5:41 PM, nlk10010 said:

Milo Lines and, to some extent, Sam Goulden teach the same thing, I think the idea is there is no release when you're first learning the swing (i.e. drilling it). It's a "rigid motion" (my term). Later of course there is a release as otherwise you wouldn't hit the ball very far. It's good for people (like me) who can't avoid using their arms and hands to hit "at" the ball and as a result have poor sequencing.

 

 

 

This is an excellent point.  GG mentions on some of his IG that if you just held it off forever you would swipe the s*** out of it.  But I do think at the start he and others focus on no release to get people away from the stall flip they are used to.  Full exaggeration.  

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It seems to me people who learn the game by swinging the club with their hands and arms develop a better feel for the game, become better shot makers and have better touch around the green. As you develop you might become more body oriented.  Extreme example Bubba or Daly. 
 

people who are obsessed with having a perfect swing, and having perfect body positions tend to be range rats who never really learn the nuances.  Extreme example Mac Ogrady.  
 

most people are somewhere in between, but it seems learning to swing first is always the best path. 

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Even an hand and arm swing method usually requires a shifting which will require some body parts to rotate. MDLT swing just let’s it happen with no conscious thought to it . It works as several out here can attest. It’s a matter of focus. I prefer the hands and arms method probably because it was taught to me and felt more natural. It takes work either way but IMO less with the arm type. 

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On 7/23/2021 at 12:20 PM, glk said:

No. Get that out of your head.   Everything starts back to the target within  .14 sec or less  in transition.     X factor happens in backswing  but not due to restricting anything.    If one has ribcage 90* and hips 45* rotated at the top and goal is to get enough open to hit a good shot then the gap between the ribcage and the hips has to change a lot in a short time. - .25 sec downswing.     In my example above if one got 20*open with ribcage and 25* with pelvis (Kevin Na gets around 20/25) then the ribcage needs to move 120* to the hips 70* to close that gap.    And X factor stretch is not really done either - amg has a video on this from their viewing lots of elite 3D swings.

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7_aZvBFriO/

 

all swing are rotational and lateral.  It is a blend not an either or as noted early in thread.

I think most amateurs stall and flip at the bottom because they try to move the club too much in the horizontal plane with their arms.  They are trying to swing the club around their body with their arms instead of their pivot.  This results in the lead hand moving out towards the ball in the downswing which leaves the club face open to the path late.  The body stall is a reaction to the player having to stand the shaft up and rotate the face closed to find the ball at impact, (the body stops to allow time for this).  How much body rotation a player needs in order to play golf well would depend on the arm, shaft and club face orientation in the downswing, correct?  Lots of people chase body rotation thinking that they need to be wide open at impact to play well but the 'how much' really depends on a bunch of other factors.  This is kind of the whole basis for Wright Balance, (Rinker), as well as the release models identified by Hardy in the Plane Truth teachings if my understanding is correct.  So in my view, (I'm not an instructor, just an avid reader of swing method), the amount of body rotation required at impact really depends on how the player moves their hands and arms in relation to their body.

Edited by DShepley
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On 7/25/2021 at 12:02 PM, dlygrisse said:

It seems to me people who learn the game by swinging the club with their hands and arms develop a better feel for the game, become better shot makers and have better touch around the green. As you develop you might become more body oriented.  Extreme example Bubba or Daly. 
 

people who are obsessed with having a perfect swing, and having perfect body positions tend to be range rats who never really learn the nuances.  Extreme example Mac Ogrady.  
 

most people are somewhere in between, but it seems learning to swing first is always the best path. 

 

Huh?

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Probably not a super popular statement, but it's just different feels/methods to accomplish the same thing.  I think Gankas has a lot of great info, but I prefer the way Monte's stuff works with how I think and feel the swing. 

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15 minutes ago, PJ1120 said:

 

Huh?

of playing the game not ball striking.  Relative to the rest of the tour, someone like Phil, or even a Jim Furyk really knows how to get the ball in the hole and score.  Someone like Mac did not win much, horrible putter, was very good at hitting balls, but nor really playing golf.  Again, relative to the guys winning on tour.  

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  • 3 weeks later...

I was at the range today and have not thought about this topic until my practice session.   I come to realize that the days when I was hitting the ball longer (but not as accurate ) I was a body swinger and rotated around my back hip and felt more athletic 

when I swing with my arms and shoulders and leave my lower body passive I don’t get as much power and when I try to swing faster with my arms it just turns out I hurt my hands and flip through the ball even when my hips react 

the arms swing seem to work better for me as add on for the PW only 

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The best instructors teach address technique (grip-posture-alignment) and from there the player's own naturally effective swing will emerge.

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On 7/28/2021 at 11:25 AM, dlygrisse said:

of playing the game not ball striking.  Relative to the rest of the tour, someone like Phil, or even a Jim Furyk really knows how to get the ball in the hole and score.  Someone like Mac did not win much, horrible putter, was very good at hitting balls, but nor really playing golf.  Again, relative to the guys winning on tour.  

What? Didnt Mac at one time start playing lefty, won and then quit playing on the tour?

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Great yopic.  One of the trickiest and most important things in golf - correctly blending the two movements so they are synced. 

 

I seem to do best either:

Initiating with hands and allowing body to turn along

OR

being super patient with body turn - in essence "waiting" for the club.  When I do this, the club feels super heavy through the bottom of the swing.  If I don't keep super consistent and relaxed grip pressure throughout I can really screw this up 

 

In both cases my mind is very much in my hands

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