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What is the putting equivalent to Rick Barry's underhand free throws?


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Was thinking about this the other day- Rick Barry innovated the underhand free throw, arguing it was anatomically easier to repeat than overhand. He backed it up- still in the all time top 10 free throw make percentage.

 

Has any research been done on what is the most anatomically repeatable way to making a putting stroke? As in, stance, body position, ball position.. anything goofy that isnt generally accepted but totally legal? (side saddle being an easy example)

 

Rick Barry got me thinking first about Crenshaw and Locke. Both used non-square stances. Crenshaw open, Bobby Locke very closed and ball off front foot.

 

Do it at home yourself and you'll probably notice that open and closed will limit your path quite a bit. Almost like they were eliminating half of their misses... just like the sage old advice to eliminate half the course with your shot shape, tee-to-green. 

 

I don't know why, but I only thought about this from a putting perspective. Maybe because the full swing has been discussed so much more. Or that free throws and putting are both smaller games within the game? 

 

 

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I recently switched to instinct putting and just got my book today on it. Similar to a free throw I am taking a lot of the overthinking out of it and I've never putted this well. Everyone I have played with thinks I'm crazy, but we all laugh when my putt drops with me looking at the hole the whole time. 

 

 

17bd6215e20d4da0c211a397a5872374be96d598.jpg

Edited by lefthack
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Its probably " croquet " style putting is easiest to repeat. Of course because Sam Snead made everything he looked at using this stroke they banned it years ago.

Whatever method try to make it "mindless" Aaron Baddeley says when you throw  a baseball from short to first you just throw it, you don't think about it or guide it. His routine is stand behind the ball envision it going into the hole ,  step up and stroke it. No practice stroke, no thinking about mechanics, etc. Just let it go.

 

 

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Not a great analogy other than something “repeatable” which simply depends on the player. 
 

Bill Sharman led the league more times than Barry. Among the best of all time, take 20 of them, and hardly a nickel’s worth of difference and most did it other than how Barry did it. He got well deserved attention. Give me Larry Bird all day if a game was on the line. 

 

Barry was great, loved watching him play, worked for him, but he was highly talented and had all day every day to practice when he wasn’t playing. 

Edited by Hawkeye77
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5 hours ago, lefthack said:

I recently switched to instinct putting and just got my book today on it. Similar to a free throw I am taking a lot of the overthinking out of it and I've never putted this well. Everyone I have played with thinks I'm crazy, but we all laugh when my putt drops with me looking at the hole the whole time. 

 

 

17bd6215e20d4da0c211a397a5872374be96d598.jpg

This is a good one. I've used this method in the past, so much so that I trusted it in events for a while. I still use it in practice. 

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2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Not a great analogy other than something “repeatable” which simply depends on the player. 
 

Bill Sharman led the league more times than Barry. Among the best of all time, take 20 of them, and hardly a nickel’s worth of difference and most did it other than how Barry did it. He got well deserved attention. Give me Larry Bird all day if a game was on the line. 

 

Barry was great, loved watching him play, worked for him, but he was highly talented and had all day every day to practice when he wasn’t playing. 

Think you missed what I was getting at my mans.

 

All credit to Bill Sharman though

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Why mess with technique and practice when all you need is the power of positive contagion, the belief that if you use the exact piece of equipment that a successful pro used, you will be better by the transference of the pro's mojo to your putting stroke. 

 

It ain't The Lancet, but it's published and peer reviewed.

 

  Putting Like a Pro: The Role of Positive Contagion in Golf Performance and Perception (plos.org)

 

Research results distilled to one sentence: Belief is a powerful thing.

 

I'm surprised John Daly hasn't picked up on this yet.  Imagine the number of drivers "actually used by Long John in Tournament X" he could sell at next year's Masters!  Seriously.      

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16 hours ago, Cons said:

 

 

Has any research been done on what is the most anatomically repeatable way to making a putting stroke? As in, stance, body position, ball position.. anything goofy that isnt generally accepted but totally legal? 

 

 

 

Shoulders square to the target line at address I believe is a commonality among most all good putters . It's true Nicklaus and Crenshaw and Pavin used an open stance address posture, but at the same time their shoulders were square to their target line. Bobby Locke used a closed stance but his shoulders were square to the target line.

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5 hours ago, Cons said:

Think you missed what I was getting at my mans.

 

All credit to Bill Sharman though

I think I got it.  You were suggesting Barry was "the" example of a repeatable free throw stroke, suggesting there is or could be an equivalent with a putting stroke.  All of the other players, including all of those ahead of him all time on the career or individual season lists did it differently than he did and many different from each other.  So it's a bit of a flawed premise.

 

The elements that made great putters "repeatable" - Crenshaw, Locke, Woods, Nicklaus, Casper (tons of them) were unique to many of them - there isn't one "method".  But, what worked for them was repeatable -- they had talent we don't, time to practice we don't and weren't necessarily preaching or practicing a "method" (which Barry did, and which was a one off in essence as far as the NBA was concerned).

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2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

which Barry did, and which was a one off in essence as far as the NBA was concerned

 

this was the OP’s point, and you did miss it. 

 

he’s asking about things that are against the grain (a la underhand free throws) but work really well. 

Edited by ChipStrokes
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1 minute ago, ChipStrokes said:

 

this was the OP’s point, and you did miss it. 

 

he’s asking about things that are against the grain (a la underhand free throws) but work really well. 

No, he wants to know what is the most anatomically repeatable whether it is against the grain or not.  The idea Crenshaw and Locke were eliminating one side of the hole?  Nah.

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Shaming happens in basketball just like golf:

 

If It Works, Why Don’t Players Shoot This Way?

Shaquille O’Neal, one of the worst free throw shooters ever, told Rick Barry he would never shoot his free throws the way Berry did.

“Sorry, can’t do it, Rick,” he says he told Barry, “I’d rather shoot zero percent, too cool for that.”

Chamberlain echoed this sentiment in his autobiography, saying “I felt silly, like a sissy, shooting underhanded. I know I was wrong, I know some of the best foul shooters in history shot that way. I just couldn’t do it.”

Barry himself said in a 2012 SB Nation profile that the reason that players don’t shoot like he did is because “It’s all about the ego… They don’t think it’s macho enough for them, and that’s fine.”

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16 hours ago, Cons said:

As in, stance, body position, ball position.. anything goofy that isnt generally accepted but totally legal? 

 

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

No, he wants to know what is the most anatomically repeatable whether it is against the grain or not.  The idea Crenshaw and Locke were eliminating one side of the hole?  Nah.

 

please read the above. 

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Well, if you leave out the part where he says anatomically repeatable is what the search is for, lol.

 

He's not limiting it to "goofy" but read it how you wish.

 

Back to the actual topic - Barry's method was anatomically repeatable for him, Bird's for him, Jeff Hornacek, for him.  Great putters, repeatable for them.

 

May be some things common to all great putters (talent on loan from the Almighty included), but no magic method, IMO.  Lots of great books and ideas on putting, probably more than just "regular" swing - so individual.

 

 

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Sheesh.  You guys like like to squabble about picayune stuff  The golf arbiters in Far Hill and St. Andrews have pretty much illegalized any non-traditional putting method whether or not it was anatomically preferable.  Croquet style, anchoring, limits on lie angles...  Arm lock might be next to be illegalized.  

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59 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Well, if you leave out the part where he says anatomically repeatable is what the search is for, lol.

 

He's not limiting it to "goofy" but read it how you wish.

 

Back to the actual topic - Barry's method was anatomically repeatable for him, Bird's for him, Jeff Hornacek, for him.  Great putters, repeatable for them.

 

May be some things common to all great putters (talent on loan from the Almighty included), but no magic method, IMO.  Lots of great books and ideas on putting, probably more than just "regular" swing - so individual.

 

 

 

agreed with everything you said about repeatability.  barry shot underhand to remove variables from his shot, the same way that guys try removing variables with different putting styles. 

 

but the OP literally asked about against the grain methods, or a better way to putt  (@LeoLeo99 pointed out that every time someone finds a “better way” for them in golf, those methods get banned) and then told you that you missed his point. i don’t see how i’m the one reading things incorrectly. 

 

have a wonderful saturday. 

Edited by ChipStrokes
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With all due respect to Rick Barry, who was a great player in every way including free throw shooting, there is absolutely NO way that shooting free throws with two hands is a better way to shoot a basketball than shooting with one hand.  The fact that it worked for ONE PLAYER, no matter how well it worked for him, doesn’t change that.

 

I was a HS basketball coach for 40 years, including during the Barry years, and I messed around in the gym shooting underhand many, many times.  When you try it, the thing that becomes the clearest is how difficult it is to get the two hands on opposite sides of the ball to do EXACTLY the same thing; if either hand exerts more or less force and spin than the other, the ball is instantly offline.

 

Shooting a free throw is more or less like throwing a dart. Add to that the simple fact that there is crossover practice between jump shooting and free throw shooting, and it’s pretty obvious why nobody goes to the Barry method.  He was a FT savant; like Moe Norman, that doesn’t mean you can do what he does and make it work.

 

Big guys like Shaq and Wilt tend to be worse at FT shooting; always have, always will. There are several reasons for that, not the least of which is how small and light the ball is for them.  Go out in the driveway with a volleyball and try shooting FT’s; you’ll be shocked at how hard it is.

 

Here’s a guiding principle in watching pro athletes do what they do: The more unusual a particular athlete is compared to others at that same level, the less there is to learn and copy from them.  They were touched by the gods, and even other pros can’t copy what they do successfully.

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On 7/24/2021 at 8:57 AM, Hawkeye77 said:

I think I got it.  You were suggesting Barry was "the" example of a repeatable free throw stroke, suggesting there is or could be an equivalent with a putting stroke.  All of the other players, including all of those ahead of him all time on the career or individual season lists did it differently than he did and many different from each other.  So it's a bit of a flawed premise.

 

The elements that made great putters "repeatable" - Crenshaw, Locke, Woods, Nicklaus, Casper (tons of them) were unique to many of them - there isn't one "method".  But, what worked for them was repeatable -- they had talent we don't, time to practice we don't and weren't necessarily preaching or practicing a "method" (which Barry did, and which was a one off in essence as far as the NBA was concerned).

Interesting, I looked up the all time leaders , Steph Curry leads the list, Bird and Sharman are #13 and 14.  Barry is 8th. The amount that separates them is small. I never saw Sharman play but Barry is highly underrated in this day and age, Bird is one of the greatest clutch shooters ever. Curry make be the greatest shooter ever, to me using a different technique for free throws just doubles the amount of skills you need to practice. 
 

modern equipment does help.  Basketballs used to be inconsistent in roundness, lighting was bad in some arenas, who knows if all the baskets were the same height?

 

we could get into one of those endless debates about the old guys vs the young guys.  I’ll leave it with, Rick Barry is the only guy on the list to shoot that way, that I know of.  Wilt Chamberlain shot that way and struggled to hit 50%. 
 

putting isn’t hard unless you make it hard and set unrealistic expectations.  It’s the easiest part of the game, and the one area where someone of almost any age or skill level can be competent at. 
 

it’s really all just mental. 

 

 

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On 7/24/2021 at 7:44 AM, JohnnyCashForever said:

Why mess with technique and practice when all you need is the power of positive contagion, the belief that if you use the exact piece of equipment that a successful pro used, you will be better by the transference of the pro's mojo to your putting stroke. 

 

It ain't The Lancet, but it's published and peer reviewed.

 

  Putting Like a Pro: The Role of Positive Contagion in Golf Performance and Perception (plos.org)

 

Research results distilled to one sentence: Belief is a powerful thing.

 

I'm surprised John Daly hasn't picked up on this yet.  Imagine the number of drivers "actually used by Long John in Tournament X" he could sell at next year's Masters!  Seriously.      

This is pretty true. I think if your body feels the stroke it will be a perfect stroke. If you are super mechanical and don't feel it, then perhaps you lose something.

 

Is there a way to be perfect mechanically and still have that instinctive feel??

 

One big problem I've encountered is when you practice you feel on and u can make alot of putts. Then thr next day, maybe you are not in the same position, something is slightly off or different, and you can't make anything.

 

That is the problem with not lining up square and having a routine. Its very hard to get setup thr same everytime. But enough practice and it should solve that. 

Edited by N0rs3man
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FWIW I can share my thoughts on putting well and some on course emergency adjustments. This has worked well for me going on 10 years (had 2 rounds with less than 30 putts over the weekend) but certainly doesn't work for everyone. Won't get into green reading as that is an entirely different conversation, though is just as important.

 

1. Find a putter that is easy to align for you. If putting is just line and speed then let the putter help you with the line. Some people like sight dots, two balls, etc. A long single line behind the ball works best for me. Currently using a Ping Ketsch and do not switch putters often. A putter that is easy to align also really helps with the short putts. 

2. Grip the putter in your life lines and align the shaft with the forearms. This usually results in your eyes directly over or just slightly inside the ball. For me, eyes over the ball results in a better and truer starting line. 

3. Shoulders square to the target line. For me alignment of the feet doesn't matter If my shoulders are square and I follow rule 2.

4. Always putt to a spot past the hole. In other words, the finish line is some point beyond the hole not the hole itself. 

5. I wasn't going to include this as it may be obvious but swing with the shoulders and not the hands or arms. It's ok to be handsy on super long putts but otherwise shoulders only.

 

All this is great for me but sometimes the stroke needs some adjustment on the course.

 

1. Pulls. Assuming a conventional grip, simply weaken the top hand. By weakening the top hand it is nearly impossible to turn the face over during the stroke and eliminates pulls. Actually same trick works for bunker shots and I believe it was a Johnny Miller tip. I incorporated that tip into my putting game.

2. Pushes. I usually push the ball when the face gets ahead of the hands in the through swing. Just focus on keeping your hands ahead of the club face.

3. Inconsistent direction. I like to pick a spot a foot or so in front of the ball and just make sure I roll the ball over the spot. Usually do this on the days that I don't trust my alignment.

5. Speed control. Use grip pressure to adjust speed. If you are leaving them short use more grip pressure. Hitting them long use less grip pressure. This technique can be applied to uphill and downhill putts as well. 

 

That's my opinion and works for me. Best of luck.

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On 7/23/2021 at 8:12 PM, lefthack said:

I recently switched to instinct putting and just got my book today on it. Similar to a free throw I am taking a lot of the overthinking out of it and I've never putted this well. Everyone I have played with thinks I'm crazy, but we all laugh when my putt drops with me looking at the hole the whole time. 

 

 

17bd6215e20d4da0c211a397a5872374be96d598.jpg

 

 

I started doing this 40 years ago for putts within my peripheral vision.

 

I was playing darts in a pub and complaining about my pathetic putting. The guy who owned the pub/curry place was Indian and held a Guinness World record for the something like the most double bulls eyes in eight hours, or something like that.

 

He asked me what I looked at while I putted and I told him the ball. He said I must be nuts. Did I look at the dart in my hand when I threw it? Of course not.

 

And just for the record, the place reeked of curry. If you ate a cheese sandwich on white bread, it would have tasted like a bowl of curry. The smell of curry was like a vapor coming out of the wallpaper.

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8 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

 

I started doing this 40 years ago for putts within my peripheral vision.

 

I was playing darts in a pub and complaining about my pathetic putting. The guy who owned the pub/curry place was Indian and held a Guinness World record for the something like the most double bulls eyes in eight hours, or something like that.

 

He asked me what I looked at while I putted and I told him the ball. He said I must be nuts. Did I look at the dart in my hand when I threw it? Of course not.

 

And just for the record, the place reeked of curry. If you ate a cheese sandwich on white bread, it would have tasted like a bowl of curry. The smell of curry was like a vapor coming out of the wallpaper.

 

When I first read about it, it was an "a ha" moment. I still look at my stroke in my peripheral vision but I am looking at the hole.

 

I haven't started the book yet, I'm interested to see if there is something I can do better. But the reality is I've never putted this well, so not sure what I can improve. 

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You might have to be prepared to ignore the naysayers. As a matter of fact, maybe we shouldn't tell people about this and keep it a secret...

 

 

Upon reflection:

Yeah, that's the ticket... This does not work, people! Just ignore it and keep fiddling with your grip or ball position, or forward lean or whatever.

 

This does not work! Don't try it or you'll be shanking putts. Beware!

Edited by Soloman1
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Putting is lot more than just a putting stroke.
 

One common mistakes that amateurs make is a poor grip which the leads to breaking of the wrist, you will see some pros go to the claw grip to combat this. Additionally you have ball positioning which will be different depending on if your right or left eye dominant this will allow you to better see the line. Now after you figure out your grip, ball position, you can begin on your stroke.

 

So now you get all of those right, how about reading greens? Most amateurs are not very good at reading greens so even with a good stroke you’re going to suffer.

 

good luck looking for the silver bullet.

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"Instinct putting" changed my putting forever.  And made me a better putter.  There is science behind the idea of looking at the hole, but more importantly it freed my mind and allowed me to trust that I can get the ball to the hole with the proper speed.  Practically eliminated my three putts.  It's different, you'll definitely get some ribbing from your buddies and others, but it has worked for me for at least the last ten years and I don't plan on changing.

 

But, as Sloloman1 has said:  It won't work for the rest of you, so forget about it.

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On 7/24/2021 at 7:53 AM, Hawkeye77 said:

Well, if you leave out the part where he says anatomically repeatable is what the search is for, lol.

 

He's not limiting it to "goofy" but read it how you wish.

 

Back to the actual topic - Barry's method was anatomically repeatable for him, Bird's for him, Jeff Hornacek, for him.  Great putters, repeatable for them.

 

May be some things common to all great putters (talent on loan from the Almighty included), but no magic method, IMO.  Lots of great books and ideas on putting, probably more than just "regular" swing - so individual.

 

 

 

The moment you use the term "anatomically repeatable," you are just asking for trouble. We are all different. You could say that on the bell curve of anatomy, "most" people fall in a certain area, but then you have things like vision and balance and flexibility (not all that important in putting, admittedly) that greatly affect one's ability to repeat an athletic movement also, and all those things combine to make it almost impossible for there to be one "anatomically best" way of doing something even as simple as putting.

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4 hours ago, oikos1 said:

"Instinct putting" changed my putting forever.  And made me a better putter.  There is science behind the idea of looking at the hole, but more importantly it freed my mind and allowed me to trust that I can get the ball to the hole with the proper speed.  Practically eliminated my three putts.  It's different, you'll definitely get some ribbing from your buddies and others, but it has worked for me for at least the last ten years and I don't plan on changing.

 

But, as Sloloman1 has said:  It won't work for the rest of you, so forget about it.

I will - you can't make me make more putts!  😀  I'll just keep doing it my way and keep on missing!  (I may actually try this if I venture onto the putting green just for fun).

Edited by Hawkeye77
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6 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I will - you can't make me make more putts!  😀  I'll just keep doing it my way and keep on missing!  (I may actually try this if I venture onto the putting green just for fun).

its uncomfortable at first. i've messed around with it. for some reason i hit the ball off the heel of the putter when i'm looking at the hole.  to be fair, i haven't given it enough practice to say whether or not it works for me though.

 

i think the "throwing a baseball/dart" analogy is a good one that works for anyone with some athletic ability but i find it a little flawed.  don't take this as an argument, but more of a discussion point.  when you throw a ball or a dart, your projectile of choice is directly connected to your body and you have 100% influence over how much force you apply to it and in what direction.  with putting, you're using another object to propel the ball forward and how much force you apply to the putter doesn't transfer to the ball 1:1 all the time.  

 

@Soloman1 @lefthack @oikos1 @Hawkeye77 thoughts?

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35 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

its uncomfortable at first. i've messed around with it. for some reason i hit the ball off the heel of the putter when i'm looking at the hole.  to be fair, i haven't given it enough practice to say whether or not it works for me though.

 

i think the "throwing a baseball/dart" analogy is a good one that works for anyone with some athletic ability but i find it a little flawed.  don't take this as an argument, but more of a discussion point.  when you throw a ball or a dart, your projectile of choice is directly connected to your body and you have 100% influence over how much force you apply to it and in what direction.  with putting, you're using another object to propel the ball forward and how much force you apply to the putter doesn't transfer to the ball 1:1 all the time.  

 

@Soloman1 @lefthack @oikos1 @Hawkeye77 thoughts?

 

There are times I notice I am getting lazy and will hit it off the heel or toe or not a square path. If I think about it too much, it gets ugly. But if I genuinely use my intuition, it actually works. 

 

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