Grayson Murray Tweets Lack of Help from PGA

[bladehunter]

40 minutes ago, TiScape said:

You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. I won’t say one way or the other because I’ve never been in those shoes. But to anyone that looks down at an addict and judges them and simply says “just stop and stop making excuses” while they shake their head… With all due respect that’s a pretty ignorant take and you truly don’t know do you.
*And I’m not saying that’s you dlygrisse. Just in general.

It’s a very interesting topic to me.  As usual the truth , if there is universal truth , probably lies in the dead middle.  
 

I’d ask this.  How else could you look at an addict ?  Can’t be look up.  Can’t be look to the side , as your peer group isn’t addicts. Yes ?  Down is the only logical  direction.  Correct ?  Doesn’t mean judgment automatically.  It just means acknowledgment of the situation in my eyes.  Judgement to me implies a finality.  A closing of the mind.  In that case. Sure. It’s always wrong.  But I think in most cases , most people have a mind open enough to help someone who wants it.  There lies the usual hitch.  Those who want it.  If you offer to pay , offer a ride to the facility and offer a job afterwards etc  , and the person refuses.  Not just says no but curses you for a dog and disappears for a month , Do they want it ?  Help that is ... I say not.  
 

what about the person who has imagined their suicide since a young age ?  Every day they decide to live.  Isn’t that a choice against the demons ?  
 

Again. I’m not decided. I just have thought on this for a long time.  And love the discussion. I’ve just read too many recovering addicts who will dispel the “ no choice “ theories in their testimonies to believe that all who need help are without ability to choose.  That also leaves room for the exception.  I personally detest enablers.  My father being public enemy number 1 on that front. Misery loves company.  
 

rounding to this young man that the post is about.  If he wanted help truly. Why isn’t he getting it ????? He has the means , the job flexibility and the platform to ask , to pay and to go.  That’s not me saying he isn’t crying for help.  He is.  And I hope someone reaches out and guides him. But if he continues to blame others and do nothing for himself then my opinion would change .  

Edited July 25, 2021 by bladehunter

[bscinstnct]

10 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

It’s a very interesting topic to me.  As usual the truth , if there is universal truth , probably lies in the dead middle.  
 

I’d ask this.  How else could you look at an addict ?  Can’t be look up.  Can’t be look to the side , as your peer group isn’t addicts. Yes ?  Down is the only logical  direction.  Correct ?  Doesn’t mean judgment automatically.  It just means acknowledgment of the situation in my eyes.  Judgement to me implies a finality.  A closing of the mind.  In that case. Sure. It’s always wrong.  But I think in most cases , most people have a mind open enough to help someone who wants it.  There lies the usual hitch.  Those who want it.  If you offer to pay , offer a ride to the facility and offer a job afterwards etc  , and the person refuses.  Not just says no but curses you for a dog and disappears for a month , Do they want it ?  Help that is ... I say not.  
 

what about the person who has imagined their suicide since a young age ?  Every day they decide to live.  Isn’t that a choice against the demons ?  
 

Again. I’m not decided. I just have thought on this for a long time.  And love the discussion. I’ve just read too many recovering addicts who will dispel the “ no choice “ theories in their testimonies to believe that all who need help are without ability to choose.  That also leaves room for the exception.  I personally detest enablers.  My father being public enemy number 1 on that front. Misery loves company.  
 

rounding to this young man that the post is about.  If he wanted help truly. Why isn’t he getting it ????? He has the means , the job flexibility and the platform to ask , to pay and to go.  That’s not me saying he isn’t crying for help.  He is.  And I hope someone reaches out and guides him. But if he continues to blame others and do nothing for himself then my opinion would change .  

Fair. I’d just consider the possibility that the heroin/opioid addict no longer has the capability of choice. In that their brain/biology is now actually rewired at the most intrinsic level to prevent it. 

[TiScape]

14 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

It’s a very interesting topic to me.  As usual the truth , if there is universal truth , probably lies in the dead middle.  
 

I’d ask this.  How else could you look at an addict ?  Can’t be look up.  Can’t be look to the side , as your peer group isn’t addicts. Yes ?  Down is the only logical  direction.  Correct ?  Doesn’t mean judgment automatically.  It just means acknowledgment of the situation in my eyes.  Judgement to me implies a finality.  A closing of the mind.  In that case. Sure. It’s always wrong.  But I think in most cases , most people have a mind open enough to help someone who wants it.  There lies the usual hitch.  Those who want it.  If you offer to pay , offer a ride to the facility and offer a job afterwards etc  , and the person refuses.  Not just says no but curses you for a dog and disappears for a month , Do they want it ?  Help that is ... I say not.  
 

what about the person who has imagined their suicide since a young age ?  Every day they decide to live.  Isn’t that a choice against the demons ?  
 

Again. I’m not decided. I just have thought on this for a long time.  And love the discussion. I’ve just read too many recovering addicts who will dispel the “ no choice “ theories in their testimonies to believe that all who need help are without ability to choose.  That also leaves room for the exception.  I personally detest enablers.  My father being public enemy number 1 on that front. Misery loves company.  
 

rounding to this young man that the post is about.  If he wanted help truly. Why isn’t he getting it ????? He has the means , the job flexibility and the platform to ask , to pay and to go.  That’s not me saying he isn’t crying for help.  He is.  And I hope someone reaches out and guides him. But if he continues to blame others and do nothing for himself then my opinion would change .  

Ok, let me ask you then. If, as many experts say, addiction is a disease just like heart disease or asthma. Do you also look down at someone with those diseases???

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

Fair. I’d just consider the possibility that the heroin/opioid addict no longer has the capability of choice. In that their brain/biology is now actually rewired at the most intrinsic level to prevent it. 

And that’s entirely possible.  But if we follow that logic train we get to a place where they also have no culpability for committing a crime etc and that will quickly lead to a huge mess in society.  Which is why I keep reiterating that I remain on the fence.  It would be very easy , much easier -er , for me to simply use that to excuse my brother.  But in reality he has a rap sheet longer than my arm , and children by 3 prostitutes.  2 my sisters have and one I adopted when he was 3.  After he saw more that any grownup should have seen. To me it just becomes hard to say that once the body count gets so large.   The flip side of the Coin is that every hit is a choice.  That’s the basic struggle my brain has with it.  No choice to me means it will happen with zero input from the person.  Yet we both know that they work  hard to make the high possible.  So around and  around my mind goes.  

[bladehunter]

6 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Ok, let me ask you then. If, as many experts say, addiction is a disease just like heart disease or asthma. Do you also look down at someone with those diseases???

Take a breathe.  I’ll just stop posting if we decide to argue about this.  I’m way too close to it to get angry snd go at it.  Lol.  I’ll get us both banned.  
 

but to answer your question.  A lot maybe even most heart disease diagnosis , are preventable.  It’s not by and large a disease that attacks folks who eat clean and exercise daily their whole lives.  We all eat horribly and compared to 100 years ago are lazy as crap.  So yes and no.  Disease ?  Sure.  Entirely without culpability?  Not at all.  
 

do I look down on them ?  Not in the judgmental way you mean.  No. I don’t pretend to sentence them to death.  Etc.  but I don’t call their health equal to mine either.  How can I , that wouldn’t be the truth.  Right ?  

[TiScape]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Take a breathe.  I’ll just stop posting if we decide to argue about this.  I’m way too close to it to get angry snd go at it.  Lol.  I’ll get us both banned.  
 

but to answer your question.  A lot maybe even most heart disease diagnosis , are preventable.  It’s not by and large a disease that attacks folks who eat clean and exercise daily their whole lives.  We all eat horribly and compared to 100 years ago are lazy as crap.  So yes and no.  Disease ?  Sure.  Entirely without culpability?  Not at all.  
 

do I look down on them ?  Not in the judgmental way you mean.  No. I don’t pretend to sentence them to death.  Etc.  but I don’t call their health equal to mine either.  How can I , that wouldn’t be the truth.  Right ?  

BIG difference between an argument and a debate. I was FAR from arguing. I couldn’t be calmer. Have a good one

Edited July 25, 2021 by TiScape

[bladehunter]

49 minutes ago, TiScape said:

BIG difference between an argument and a debate. I was FAR from arguing. I couldn’t be calmer. Have a good one

Sure. That was simply me stating the ultra obvious , that i had  stated 13 times today that my opinion will never be set in stone on this and remains fluid. And that goes for either direction. And that I didn’t want either of us to get ahead of ourselves as we are both prone to doing.    I don’t think me saying that I didn’t wish to argue meant that dialogue has to stop. I replied to your questions.  And welcome any counter thought on my reply.  absolutely zero blame meant to your direction.  I guess I was telling myself as much as anyone.  
 

 

And I’ll add now that I think you’re looking through the lense of feeling sorry for the person , Trying to empathize.  Unless you’ve beaten an addiction you can’t do it.  It’s impossible.    I have those urges too.  But ,  I can tell you from experience, that’s one of the ways they take advantage.  Through guilt.  To me it feels like what the player is trying to do here.  Conjure up guilty feelings to redirect blame and to justify his own actions.  It’s literally straight out of the “how to be a user” handbook.  

and AGAIN I’ll say. That doesn’t mean we don’t hear it as a cry for help , and offer help.  But it does mean that he has to then want  it.   The tour should  publicly offer to help and/or  call his bluff. Offer to send him to the best facility on their dime and freeze his status on tour  to be restarted whne he’s well . Then you’ll see how serious he is and what the true want  is.  I’d hope sincerely for acceptance of the offer. But I wouldn’t bet money on it.  
 

At any rate He still ultimately has to make a choice.  I have no knowledge of any successful forced detoxification.  Not long term.  We can have sympathy for the addict and offer help , but we cannot do anything past that if they don’t sincerely accept.  

Edited July 25, 2021 by bladehunter

[TiScape]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Sure. That was simply me stating the ultra obvious , that i had  stated 13 times today that my opinion will never be set in stone on this and remains fluid. And that goes for either direction. And that I didn’t want either of us to get ahead of ourselves as we are both prone to doing.    I don’t think me saying that I didn’t wish to argue meant that dialogue has to stop. I replied to your questions.  And welcome any counter thought on my reply.  absolutely zero blame meant to your direction.  I guess I was telling myself as much as anyone.  
 

 

And I’ll add now that I think you’re looking through the lense of feeling sorry for the person , Trying to empathize.  Unless you’ve beaten an addiction you can’t do it.  It’s impossible.    I have those urges too.  But ,  I can tell you from experience, that’s one of the ways they take advantage.  Through guilt.  To me it feels like what the player is trying to do here.  Conjure up guilty feelings to redirect blame and to justify his own actions.  It’s literally straight out of the “how to be a user” handbook.  

and AGAIN I’ll say. That doesn’t mean we don’t hear it as a cry for help , and offer help.  But it does mean that he has to then want  it.   The tour should  publicly offer to help and/or  call his bluff. Offer to send him to the best facility on their dime and freeze his status on tour  to be restarted whne he’s well . Then you’ll see how serious he is and what the true want  is.  I’d hope sincerely for acceptance of the offer. But I wouldn’t bet money on it.  
 

At any rate He still ultimately has to make a choice.  I have no knowledge of any successful forced detoxification.  Not long term.  We can have sympathy for the addict and offer help , but we cannot do anything past that if they don’t sincerely accept.  

Na, I was never close to arguing or remotely close to getting heated for that matter. I was taken aback that you were even close to that and mentioned it. Wasn’t my intention in any way to provoke you. Probably best to end the dialogue here for now. Thanks for sharing and enjoy the rest of your evening. 

[straightshot7]

17 hours ago, TiScape said:

Hmmm ok. I’m not sure what you’re credentials are. But the American Society of Addiction Medicine which is comprised of physicians, clinicians and associated professionals in the field of addiction medicine says this. If, as they say, addiction is a disease just like asthma, diabetes and heart disease. Hard to say any of those are a choice. But whatever. I just hope the guy gets the help he needs either way. 

Show me where it says Addiction cannot involve choice.

 

As I already said, it can involve choice and still be a "disease". I repeat, "the two are not mutually exclusive".

If you don't think free will and choice at least plays a role in someone becoming an alcoholic and staying an alcoholic, you are just denying the obvious.

 

If choice didn't play a role, then why is AA successful? The whole point is to get the individual to a place where they make better choices and say "no" to alcohol.

 

The only way to beat the "addiction" or the "disease" is to choose to stop... to choose to get help... to choose to change.

 

None of your experts would deny this.

Edited July 25, 2021 by straightshot7

[TiScape]

6 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

Show me where it says Addiction cannot involve choice.

If you don't think free will and choice at least plays a role in someone becoming an alcoholic and staying an alcoholic, you are just denying the obvious.

 

If choice didn't play a role, then why is AA successful? The whole point is to get the individual to a place where they make better choices and say "no" to alcohol.

 

The only way to beat the "addiction" or the "disease" is to choose to stop... to choose to get help... to choose to change.

 

None of your experts would deny this.

I’m done in this thread for now. Gonna finish watching my A’s get beat by the Mariners AGAIN! 😩 haha ✌out fellas

Edited July 25, 2021 by TiScape

[bladehunter]

21 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I’m done in this thread for now. Gonna finish watching my A’s get beat by the Mariners AGAIN! 😩 haha ✌out fellas

Ditto.  I’m trying to put clearcoat on a tung  and groove cedar ceiling while solving the earths issues.  Even Superman had to know his limits.  Lol. 

[Go Cougs]

43 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I’m done in this thread for now. Gonna finish watching my A’s get beat by the Mariners AGAIN! 😩 haha ✌out fellas

Go M's!

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Go Cougs

[Steele47]

Oh,  so there are still baseball fans.   Did not know that.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Steele47 said:

Oh,  so there are still baseball fans.   Did not know that.

Lol. Yep. Lost me in 94..... briefly got me back when my cubbies won it , but it just faded away again so fast.   I remember being a kid and watching every game that came on wgn and TBS from start to finish.  And that was wayyyy before DVR was thought about and I had no VCR tapes. I watched them !  lol. And then after the strike , I just couldn’t stand it anymore.  And it truly bugs me that I feel that way. I’ve tried several times to watch. Just can’t.  It’s as if I don’t know the game anymore. They have so many odd rules.  There’s a ump tattle tell box and 26 pitchers a game.  I don’t know the game anymore.   

[JaNelson38]

So Grayson is a drunk, has officially hit rock bottom with his tweet, and blames the PGA Tour for his situation.  Priceless.

 

As someone who has dealt with an addiction before, step one is always admitting a problem.  Step two is actually FINDING help.  Sure, you can ask for help, but its not on anyone but yourself to get the help you need.  One of the first pillars of any recovery for an addiction is personal responsibility.  Without that, any 'help' will be rendered useless.  Its not on your employer to find the help you need, because they don't know your personal situation.  Simply find an AA meeting close by, contact your local church...there's so many resources that wouldn't cost him a dime.

 

Hope he gets better, I truly do.  But until he gets away from playing the victim, he'll never get better.

Edited July 26, 2021 by JaNelson38

[golfortennis]

10 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Lol. Yep. Lost me in 94..... briefly got me back when my cubbies won it , but it just faded away again so fast.   I remember being a kid and watching every game that came on wgn and TBS from start to finish.  And that was wayyyy before DVR was thought about and I had no VCR tapes. I watched them !  lol. And then after the strike , I just couldn’t stand it anymore.  And it truly bugs me that I feel that way. I’ve tried several times to watch. Just can’t.  It’s as if I don’t know the game anymore. They have so many odd rules.  There’s a ump tattle tell box and 26 pitchers a game.  I don’t know the game anymore.   

 

Something like 41% of plate appearances are either walks, strikeouts, or home runs.  The ball is never in play anymore.  

 

The last straw for me was the decision to wade into the cesspool of non-baseball matters.

[JaNelson38]

13 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

 

The only way to beat the "addiction" or the "disease" is to choose to stop... to choose to get help... to choose to change.

 

None of your experts would deny this.

 

Yes to this.  So yes.  This is why so many people don't go to things like AA....one of the first things you do is you tell your story to a bunch of people you don't know and admit you have a problem.  Not many people have the mental fortitude to tear themselves down like that.  But it has to be done in order to build yourself back up.

 

Its just easier for Grayson to do what he's doing...proclaim he's a drunk and lash out at everyone else for "not helping him". 

 

[golfday]

It's a pattern with him, this is the guy that went to four different colleges before leaving school early to go pro. Hopefully this was a step toward him getting the help that needs to have his life on track.

 

[MattyO1984]

Went on to check the tweets. Turns out Grayson blocked me on Twitter. Genuinely not sure what for?! I know that Elkington blocked me and Patrick Reed doesn’t want me seeing his tweets any more but I am genuinely not sure what I said to Grayson 🤔

[bladehunter]

15 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

Went on to check the tweets. Turns out Grayson blocked me on Twitter. Genuinely not sure what for?! I know that Elkington blocked me and Patrick Reed doesn’t want me seeing his tweets any more but I am genuinely not sure what I said to Grayson 🤔

Lol. Now that’s a good list of blocks.  If I were on there I’d make a badge of “ kills “ with tiny logos of each on a flag type pattern.  Which tells you why I can’t be on there.  It’s all I’d do.  Lol. 

[MattyO1984]

8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Lol. Now that’s a good list of blocks.  If I were on there I’d make a badge of “ kills “ with tiny logos of each on a flag type pattern.  Which tells you why I can’t be on there.  It’s all I’d do.  Lol. 

 

All very sad! 😂

 

Genuinely, I don’t think I am particularly prone to being disagreeable, certainly not in an obnoxious or abusive manner but Elk, Reed, Murray, Denis Pugh and John Huggan all seem to disagree 🤷🏻‍♂️

[jmck]

44 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

Went on to check the tweets. Turns out Grayson blocked me on Twitter. Genuinely not sure what for?! I know that Elkington blocked me and Patrick Reed doesn’t want me seeing his tweets any more but I am genuinely not sure what I said to Grayson 🤔

lol, if you can judge a man by his enemies then you're alright with me.

[Mustard_Tiger]

Just noting we have this debate (disease vs. choice) every time alcoholism comes up with regard to golf. Rocco Mediate, Chris Kirk, now Grayson Murray.

[jmck]

Anywho, late to the party here (and I'll happily leave the disease v. choice debate alone), but I look at this as the broken clock that's right twice a day.  Greyson is clearly not the ideal messenger, but IMO he has a point.  With the amount of money the PGA Tour blows on being a clearly bloated organization, it's criminal they don't have a full time psychiatrist/counselor/whatever on staff, just for being on call whenever a player needs help.

 

And it's not just Greyson.  Look at Matt Wolff.  Sure he has the means to step away from the game for a few months and seek professional help outside of the PGA Tour if he's struggling with his mental health, but how is a PGA Tour staffer not on call for these guys when they're feeling like Wolff was feeling a few months back?  $120k a year to fill that position is a drop in the bucket for the PGA Tour, and it's a shame that they don't make the minimal effort it would take to offer that service.  

[capking]

42 minutes ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

Just noting we have this debate (disease vs. choice) every time alcoholism comes up with regard to golf. Rocco Mediate, Chris Kirk, now Grayson Murray.

It’s because people online always know what’s right and wrong with other people’s lives…..

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

All very sad! 😂

 

Genuinely, I don’t think I am particularly prone to being disagreeable, certainly not in an obnoxious or abusive manner but Elk, Reed, Murray, Denis Pugh and John Huggan all seem to disagree 🤷🏻‍♂️

I agree with you , and I think that of myself too.  Which I realize won’t be agreed with universally.  But for those who take the time to hear me without the knee jerk reaction , I’m amenable to new ideas. But you have to show me your work 👀, ie logic ..... those who can’t do that usually are quick to hit the ignore.  Just shows their level of thinking in my opinion.  I’ve never blocked a soul in my life.  Why would I ?  Never even crossed my mind to do so.  

[bladehunter]

50 minutes ago, jmck said:

Anywho, late to the party here (and I'll happily leave the disease v. choice debate alone), but I look at this as the broken clock that's right twice a day.  Greyson is clearly not the ideal messenger, but IMO he has a point.  With the amount of money the PGA Tour blows on being a clearly bloated organization, it's criminal they don't have a full time psychiatrist/counselor/whatever on staff, just for being on call whenever a player needs help.

 

And it's not just Greyson.  Look at Matt Wolff.  Sure he has the means to step away from the game for a few months and seek professional help outside of the PGA Tour if he's struggling with his mental health, but how is a PGA Tour staffer not on call for these guys when they're feeling like Wolff was feeling a few months back?  $120k a year to fill that position is a drop in the bucket for the PGA Tour, and it's a shame that they don't make the minimal effort it would take to offer that service.  

See. I agree with that too.  I think that a place that’s flush with cash should put forth an effort.  Heck. They could even force the players to pay for it themselves as a pre income “tax”  from each purse.  It’s not as if they even have to pay for it.  

Edited July 26, 2021 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

Just noting we have this debate (disease vs. choice) every time alcoholism comes up with regard to golf. Rocco Mediate, Chris Kirk, now Grayson Murray.

I agree we do. But can’t it be both ?  

[DON SVO]

Alcohol dependence and alcoholism is such an interesting topic. I had several family members of an older generation that would 100% tick the box, and my mom was going through AA until she passed away from COPD complications (she decided to become an alcoholic in her 50s, wild stuff). I recognized that it resided in my family tree and (if you believe it’s genetic and a true disease) understood I would be prone to developing a taste for it. That said, I got to a point in my life recently where I decided that alcohol was becoming too common of a crutch and stopped pretty much cold turkey. 
 

I told my sister and wife I was tired of it and to hold me accountable. 
 

Some folks may say I wasn’t a “true alcoholic”, but I have friends that needed counseling/AA/sponsors/support network to kick it and I was definitely exceeding their quantity and frequency in several cases. How was I able to stop like I did? I don’t have the answer for that. I’d be lying if I said I knew how I can flip the switch off. The entire topic is so very fascinating and a big part of me says we will probably never fully understand it. 
 

in relation to the original topic, I hope Murray gets help. I’ve seen 2 friends finally bite the bullet and do rehab and dedicated AA meetings (oddly enough I am a sponsor to this day from friend #1, over 8 years now) and they’re way better off for it. 

[Titleist99]

Maybe the PGATOUR should put a fraction of that PIP money towards a life management program for all player on tour. If one does not currently exist. IMO