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14 club rule question.


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To make this story make sense for everyone to comment on. I’ll start from the beginning. 
 

Last week a group of 12 of us signed up for a local charity tournament. The tournament was set on Saturday the 24th. On Tuesday, a friend of mines asked me if I can drop off and pick up his driver to Uinta golf to get his driver adapter replaced before the tournament. He asked me to drop it off and pick it up. Is because I’m like a 5 minute drive. Where as he is about 45 minutes away. So I pick up his driver Friday. And bring it with me to the tournament on Saturday. 
 

I bring the driver with me to the range. As I wait for him to show up.  But I don’t put the driver inside my bag. I leave it outside the bag between the bag and bag strap. As I’m hitting balls to warm up. I lost track of time. And was called onto the deck. But my friend hasn’t shown up. So I call, and call, and call. No answer from him. Now my friend and I and another random 2 some are teeing off. I didn’t have time to go back to the car to put his driver away. So I left it outside my bag.

 

The 2 some tees off. Then walks back to there cart. My friend is taking practice swings. And I look over to what looks like the driver from the 2 some pointing something out. I didn’t think much of it. So then I tee off. Get to the next hole, then the next hole, then the next hole. He’s doing the same thing, pointing at something. The Marshall approaches our group at hole 5. He then asked me if I have 15 clubs in play. I looked over to the other 2 some and just shook my head in anger. I said I do not. I have 14 clubs in the bag. And a friends driver that I haven’t heard back from. I clearly stated to the Marshall. The driver outside my bag was not gonna be used by me. And that I picked up the driver from the repair shop for my friend. And brought it to the tournament for him. I also told the Marshall I haven’t heard from my friend. Marshall then tells me that it doesn’t matter whether or not the club is inside or outside your bag. You cannot have 15 clubs. 
 

We continued to go back and forth, back and forth. Pulled up the rules. Under 4.1.b. Went through it together. But the Marshall said I will be assessed 2 strokes per hole penalty. And that he will take my friends driver and hold it for me till I’m done. 
 

Did I really breach rule 4.1.b given my situation?

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Why not just announce to your fellow competitors on the first tee that you have a 15th club that you don't intend to use?  Why are they supposed to a club that's on your cart but outside your bag isn't intended for use?  I'm afraid the marshall's got to protect the field in this case.  But also, shame on the other 2 guys for seeing it in your bag before you teed off but not saying anything.  You get 4 penalty strokes, but they're a hole$

Edited by jacob7071
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The Rules were correctly applied, you began with more than 14 clubs (and it does not matter whether the club(s) were in your bag or not).

It does pay to know the Rules, you might have been saved this:

4.1c(2) Before Round.

If a player becomes aware shortly before starting a round that he or she accidentally has more than 14 clubs, the player should try to leave the excess club or clubs behind.

But as an option without penalty:

  • The player may take any such excess clubs out of play before the start of the round, using the procedure in (1), and

  • The excess clubs may be kept by the player (but must not be used) during the round, and they do not count towards the 14-club limit.

If a player deliberately brings more than 14 clubs to his or her first teeing area and starts the round without leaving the excess clubs behind, this option is not allowed and Rule 4.1b(1) applies.

Edited by rogolf
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Unfortunately yes you can be assessed because you went to the tee with 15 clubs on you. 

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25 minutes ago, sekrah said:

LOL at this rule. Another joke.

 

How so?  Do you think you should be allowed to carry as many clubs as you want?  Seems to me an integral part of golf (that I'm no good at) is adjusting your swing for when you're between clubs.  If you didn't limit clubs you could have a loft for every yardage.

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6 minutes ago, Girevik said:

How so?  Do you think you should be allowed to carry as many clubs as you want?  Seems to me an integral part of golf (that I'm no good at) is adjusting your swing for when you're between clubs.  If you didn't limit clubs you could have a loft for every yardage.

 

Honestly, It really should be updated to 17-20 clubs to adapt with the length of the modern game. Pros today require a wider degree of finesse from 3-4 clubs from 60-150 yards, when 60 years ago a bag would have twice as many clubs to cover these vital distances.

 

 

 

 

Edited by sekrah
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1 minute ago, sekrah said:

 

Honestly, It really should be updated to 17-20 clubs to adapt with the length of the modern game. Pros today require a wide degree of finesse from 3-4 clubs from 80-150 yards, when 60 years ago a bag would have twice as many clubs to cover these vital distances.

 

 

 

 

The last group in the world rules should be lossened for is the pros; especially because of their length.  They're already making most courses look so easy it's not even fun to watch.  If you can make an argument that is should be adjusted for the rank and file, then that's one thing.  But the PGA should have a special rule leaving it as it is similar to the one ball rule.

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4 minutes ago, jacob7071 said:

How do you differentiate between the guy who accidentally had an extra club and the guy who intended to break the rules?  Both of them will tell you it was an accident. 

 

How do you know a guy didn't fluff up his ball over in the rough when you weren't looking?  The Honor System, like we do with all golf rules. If he said he was carrying it outside of his bag because of his friend, then that should be that IMO.

 

 

Edited by sekrah
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54 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The Rules were correctly applied, you began with more than 14 clubs (and it does not matter whether the club(s) were in your bag or not).

It does pay to know the Rules, you might have been saved this:

4.1c(2) Before Round.

If a player becomes aware shortly before starting a round that he or she accidentally has more than 14 clubs, the player should try to leave the excess club or clubs behind.

But as an option without penalty:

  • The player may take any such excess clubs out of play before the start of the round, using the procedure in (1), and

  • The excess clubs may be kept by the player (but must not be used) during the round, and they do not count towards the 14-club limit.

If a player deliberately brings more than 14 clubs to his or her first teeing area and starts the round without leaving the excess clubs behind, this option is not allowed and Rule 4.1b(1) applies.

 

"This may be done either by:

 

Declaring this to the opponent in match play or the marker or another player in the group in stroke play, or

 

Taking some other clear action (such as turning the club upside down in the bag, placing it on the floor of the golf cart or giving the club to another person)."

 

IMO, one can easily make the argument that by intentionally leaving the extra club OUTSIDE of his own bag it was a "clear action" that he had no intention of using it.

 

Our comps are always the same guys and less formal than most and I often have a 2nd putter in my bag before the round. Before we start I take 1 of the putters out of play by placing it outside the bag, sometimes in the basket of the cart.

 

If a member of my 4-some is "right there" with me as I separate the putters I'll tell him that 2nd putter is out of play but that doesn't always happen.

 

If I was in a more formal tournament and/or with strangers I would definitely make a point of pointing out the specific club that was out of play.

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1 hour ago, sekrah said:

 

How do you know a guy didn't fluff up his ball over in the rough when you weren't looking?  The Honor System, like we do with all golf rules. If he said he was carrying it outside of his bag because of his friend, then that should be that IMO.

 

 

Well obviously if I didn't see a rules violation, I can't enforce it.  But that's not what happened here.  In this case, the rule violation was noticed.  Under the honor system, the guy who intended to cheat and gain an unfair advantage gets no penalty.

 

I think the reason there's no attempt to add intent into this rule is that it's so easy to not violate it, you almost have to assume someone who does violate it intended to do so.

Edited by jacob7071
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2 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Yep.  So many rules where "intent" is applied.  Why not here?

 

 

So true. I think they are very black and white with this one. They say 14 clubs and that is it. Not 14 plus an extra one outside your bag that you intend on giving to a buddy of yours who doesnt show up to grab it. They dont have time to ask everyone what their intent is. 

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Guess you weren't sharing beers with the other twosome at the turn.  

 

The marshal did what he had to do.  That the tournament even had a marshal tells me it was pretty serious tournament and the rules will be enforced.  While in your mind you were keeping the 15th club segregated, you need to inform your fellow competitors of this.  

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Even though I was out of the run to make money because of the rules violation. My friend was kind enough to pay me the coat of the tournament, plus lunch. 
 

My friend got into a car accident. And his phone broke while it was on his magnetic stand. But all that matters is he is well and walking. 
 

This was a good lesson for me to learn from and move on. Thank you guys for your honest inputs. 

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3 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

Even though I was out of the run to make money because of the rules violation. My friend was kind enough to pay me the coat of the tournament, plus lunch. 
 

My friend got into a car accident. And his phone broke while it was on his magnetic stand. But all that matters is he is well and walking. 
 

This was a good lesson for me to learn from and move on. Thank you guys for your honest inputs. 

And thank you for the honest feedback, glad your friend is okay.

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9 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

The Marshall approaches our group at hole 5. He then asked me if I have 15 clubs in play. I looked over to the other 2 some and just shook my head in anger. I said I do not. I have 14 clubs in the bag. And a friends driver that I haven’t heard back from. I clearly stated to the Marshall. The driver outside my bag was not gonna be used by me. And that I picked up the driver from the repair shop for my friend. And brought it to the tournament for him. I also told the Marshall I haven’t heard from my friend. Marshall then tells me that it doesn’t matter whether or not the club is inside or outside your bag. You cannot have 15 clubs. 

 

We continued to go back and forth, back and forth. Pulled up the rules. Under 4.1.b. Went through it together. But the Marshall said I will be assessed 2 strokes per hole penalty. And that he will take my friends driver and hold it for me till I’m done. 
 

Did I really breach rule 4.1.b given my situation?

 

As I suggested in my post above, *I* don't think you breached the rule.

 

But I AM surprised that

 

a) there isn't more input from the other "rulies" on the board and

 

b) that none of them has referenced my post and explained to me/us why (or why not) you DID breach the rule based on the part I quoted.

 

I'm also surprised that none of the rulies noted that the Marshal was wrong (a 2nd time IMO) by hitting you with 8 strokes. Or was it 10 ? You said "on the 5th hole so I'm not sure if you were on the tee or had already started #5.

 

The penalty in stroke play is 2 strokes per hole to a MAXIMUM of 4 strokes. :classic_wink:

 

 

7 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

"This may be done either by:

 

Declaring this to the opponent in match play or the marker or another player in the group in stroke play, or

 

Taking some other clear action (such as turning the club upside down in the bag, placing it on the floor of the golf cart or giving the club to another person)."

 

IMO, one can easily make the argument that by intentionally leaving the extra club OUTSIDE of his own bag it was a "clear action" that he had no intention of using it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

As I suggested in my post above, *I* don't think you breached the rule.

 

But I AM surprised that

 

a) there isn't more input from the other "rulies" on the board and

 

b) that none of them has referenced my post and explained to me/us why (or why not) you DID breach the rule based on the part I quoted.

 

I'm also surprised that none of the rulies noted that the Marshal was wrong (a 2nd time IMO) by hitting you with 8 strokes. Or was it 10 ? You said "on the 5th hole so I'm not sure if you were on the tee or had already started #5.

 

The penalty in stroke play is 2 strokes per hole to a MAXIMUM of 4 strokes. :classic_wink:

 

 

 

 

I had already tee’d off. I’m pretty sure the Marshall said 2 stroke penalty per hole. I didn’t hear him say to a maximum. So I just assumed he meant each hole. 

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1 hour ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

I had already tee’d off. I’m pretty sure the Marshall said 2 stroke penalty per hole. I didn’t hear him say to a maximum. So I just assumed he meant each hole. 

There are some "things" here that don't meet the Rules - the Rules do not identify a "marshall", but do identify a referee.  And the penalty for more than 14 clubs is two strokes for each of the holes where a breach occurred, with a maximum of four penalty strokes, two each at the first two holes where there was a breach, so holes 1 and 2 in your case.  It does pay to know the Rules.

And in response to nsxguy, imo, leaving a club out of a bag, but in the cart, does not not satisfy the "other clear action" part of Rule 4.1c.

Again, imo, there are very few "get out of jail free cards" available for this Rule.

The Rules do not require a player to have a golf bag - a caddie could (and used to) carry the player's clubs without use of a bag.

BTW, the limit of 14 clubs was introduced by the USGA in 1939.

You can see a history here...

http://www.ruleshistory.com/clubs.html

Edited by rogolf
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2 hours ago, Isaac_Newton said:

Yeap breach of rules. Dumb rule though when the club was clearly out of play. 

 

Interesting you used the same word that the rule description suggested, "Taking some other clear action (such as turning the club upside down in the bag, placing it on the floor of the golf cart or giving the club to another person)"

 

Also interesting is that "turning the club upside down in the bag" is virtually impossible for a driver.

 

Also interesting they suggest "placing it on the floor of the golf cart" when a lot of players WALK. Wonder what a clear action would be when the player is walking ?

 

But live and learn I guess. coffee.gif

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You can’t deliberately carry a 15th club onto the course and declare it “out of play” on the first tee. It’s not allowed. He KNEW he had a 15th club with him. So it isn’t an accident. He has 2 choices when he deliberately carries a 15th club to the first tee. Leave it there before he tees off, or return it to his car, locker, whatever before he tees off. 
 

All of this “declare it out of play” is nonsense and only for a club accidentally brought on the course. 
 

From 4.1:

 

“If a player deliberately brings more than 14 clubs to his or her first teeing area and starts the round without leaving the excess clubs behind, this option is not allowed and Rule 4.1b(1) applies.”

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3 minutes ago, Augster said:

You can’t deliberately carry a 15th club onto the course and declare it “out of play” on the first tee. It’s not allowed. He KNEW he had a 15th club with him. So it isn’t an accident. He has 2 choices when he deliberately carries a 15th club to the first tee. Leave it there before he tees off, or return it to his car, locker, whatever before he tees off. 
 

All of this “declare it out of play” is nonsense and only for a club accidentally brought on the course. 
 

From 4.1:

 

“If a player deliberately brings more than 14 clubs to his or her first teeing area and starts the round without leaving the excess clubs behind, this option is not allowed and Rule 4.1b(1) applies.”

Yep, same thing the Marshall told me. So I shouldn’t have looked over upset at the 2 some. And it wouldn’t have mattered if I told them. Or they asked me about the extra club. 

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5 minutes ago, Augster said:

All of this “declare it out of play” is nonsense and only for a club accidentally brought on the course. 

his friend was in an accident. therefore the club was accidentally in his possession on the first tee

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8 minutes ago, Augster said:

You can’t deliberately carry a 15th club onto the course and declare it “out of play” on the first tee. It’s not allowed. He KNEW he had a 15th club with him. So it isn’t an accident. He has 2 choices when he deliberately carries a 15th club to the first tee. Leave it there before he tees off, or return it to his car, locker, whatever before he tees off. 
 

All of this “declare it out of play” is nonsense and only for a club accidentally brought on the course. 
 

From 4.1:

 

“If a player deliberately brings more than 14 clubs to his or her first teeing area and starts the round without leaving the excess clubs behind, this option is not allowed and Rule 4.1b(1) applies.”

 

2 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

his friend was in an accident. therefore the club was accidentally in his possession on the first tee

image.gif.e0db367862cd9cd2f3a94233aeee8b0d.gif

 

On 7/26/2021 at 9:17 AM, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

So I pick up his driver Friday. And bring it with me to the tournament on Saturday. 

 

I bring the driver with me to the range. As I wait for him to show up.  But I don’t put the driver inside my bag. I leave it outside the bag between the bag and bag strap. As I’m hitting balls to warm up. I lost track of time. And was called onto the deck. But my friend hasn’t shown up. So I call, and call, and call. No answer from him. Now my friend and I and another random 2 some are teeing off. I didn’t have time to go back to the car to put his driver away. So I left it outside my bag.

 

I have to say though ChipStrokes, it's kinda funny that us guys are trying to help ol' "rather" out but he keeps apologizing and saying the Marshall was right.

 

To heck with him. *I* am done. lmao.gif

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