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At what point should a kid move up to harder tournaments.


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10 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

Here is the thing you need to play against international kids especially as a girl.  If your not playing against girls from Canada, Sweden, Mexico, Korea and China among other countries your going to get passed over for them.

 

The are a tons of kids sent over here on nationals teams to play in tournaments.  The issue is they are also taking over college programs.  A lot these national programs hire the best coaches and pay for everything.  Not all foreign kids get this but these kids are being paid to play AJGA and promoted as the best. You have to beat them.

 

These kids don't generally play state events like FJT or LJT.  They only play in national and amateur events.

 

With Boys you really do not see the international players dominating the PGA like the LPGA. So the best boys that will play in the PGA are almost likely playing the big state events. 

 

More girls need to play national events and think about how to compete to win on a international level vs a state level or else it only going get worse on the LPGA tour.

Get passed over for what?

 

" If your not playing against girls from Canada, Sweden, Mexico, Korea and China among other countries your going to get passed over for them."

 

If your son or daughter isn't the one planning and asking for these big events.  Eventually you will burn them out.

 

I agree with @heavy_hitter you could probably go to Florida and Texas and play in a loaded field.  I am sure I'm not alone in not being able to take off a week for travel and AJGA scheduling.

 

If you point is about college scholarships.  The coaches aren't sitting at their desk waiting for the next upload of AJGA scores to determine who to pick.

 

Its about who is marketing the best. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

Here is the thing you need to play against international kids especially as a girl.  If your not playing against girls from Canada, Sweden, Mexico, Korea and China among other countries your going to get passed over for them.

 

The are a tons of kids sent over here on nationals teams to play in tournaments.  The issue is they are also taking over college programs.  A lot these national programs hire the best coaches and pay for everything.  Not all foreign kids get this but these kids are being paid to play AJGA and promoted as the best. You have to beat them.

 

These kids don't generally play state events like FJT or LJT.  They only play in national and amateur events.

 

With Boys you really do not see the international players dominating the PGA like the LPGA. So the best boys that will play in the PGA are almost likely playing the big state events. 

 

More girls need to play national events and think about how to compete to win on a international level vs a state level or else it only going get worse on the LPGA tour.

 

Again, though the fields for FJT girls haven't been quite as good, you are still getting good enough competition.  For Girl's, unless you are trying to be the #1 player in the country, there is no reason to play AJGA.  I can't stress this enough.  In the landscape of collegiate women's golf, and it is sad, the coaches of top programs are going to recruit international players first.  

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9 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

Again, though the fields for FJT girls haven't been quite as good, you are still getting good enough competition.  For Girl's, unless you are trying to be the #1 player in the country, there is no reason to play AJGA.  I can't stress this enough.  In the landscape of collegiate women's golf, and it is sad, the coaches of top programs are going to recruit international players first.  

 

A lot these international players are very very motivated. So it is understandable why they get recruited and ultimately end up on a the LPGA. When you play an amateur event and some American girls whine about having to practice 20 hours a week at a D1 college it's an issue.

 

Seeing kids that have a huge work ethic only makes kids want to work harder. Not all kids are like this but mine are. The last AJGA event seeing girls from china learn to play on different grasses and greens was a eye opener.   They're not invincible at all they just work at it.

 

Unless your playing a FJT exempt field the events are little underwhelming. The non-exempts are not even worth doing and not that well run.    In some ways it's easier and faster to gain entry into AJGA via a qualifier then trying to play a FJT Exempt event.

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10 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

A lot these international players are very very motivated. So it is understandable why they get recruited and ultimately end up on a the LPGA. When you play an amateur event and some American girls whine about having to practice 20 hours a week at a D1 college it's an issue.

 

Seeing kids that have a huge work ethic only makes kids want to work harder. Not all kids are like this but mine are. The last AJGA event seeing girls from china learn to play on different grasses and greens was a eye opener.   They're not invincible at all they just work at it.

 

Unless your playing a FJT exempt field the events are little underwhelming. The non-exempts are not even worth doing and not that well run.    In some ways it's easier and faster to gain entry into AJGA via a qualifier then trying to play a FJT Exempt event.

If you win FJT open you are fully exempt.  If you come in top 3 you also get a couple of exemptions.  It is not that difficult to earn exemptions to FJT's.

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23 hours ago, Nard_S said:

My son played AAU basketball for 7 years. Coach always played kids up. Expects to win only 20%-25% of time. By the time kids are 17, they win a lot and the experience endured shows. Not always fun to watch but it works.

 

Argument to this is that playing AND winning in their age appropriate field gets them used to winning, instead of just showing up.

 

Competing in the final group on the last day feels completely different than playing in the middle of the pack, paired up with HS graduates who just started two years ago.  

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2 minutes ago, mrshinsa said:

 

Argument to this is that playing AND winning in their age appropriate field gets them used to winning, instead of just showing up.

 

Competing in the final group on the last day feels completely different than playing in the middle of the pack, paired up with HS graduates who just started two years ago.  

 

You also don't want kids who are used to winning every time they show up. I seen that a lot in US Kids for whatever reason the little guy or girl hit longer or just had more lessons and would win every week.  

 

Eventually they had to move up when they got older and the kids had very difficult time not winning. 

 

It's really hard to compare team sports to golf.  In team sports you need to win more then you lose. In golf you will almost always lose more then you win.  

 

The hardest thing is in golf when you lose by 1 stroke caused by a bad bounce.  If you can get over that you will be fine.

 

I think a variety of tournaments is what works.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, mrshinsa said:

 

Argument to this is that playing AND winning in their age appropriate field gets them used to winning, instead of just showing up.

 

Competing in the final group on the last day feels completely different than playing in the middle of the pack, paired up with HS graduates who just started two years ago.  

I get it, think there should be some mix but winning in a small fry tournament is pointless if they don't know what defines good. If they don't swim in a bigger pond every now & again. Cannot tell you how many kids and parents swear they are D1 bound and there's zero chance of D3 and much of it is because of attitude. My kid signed a commitment letter in March. College scouts don't care about wins, they care about talent.

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3 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

I get it, think there should be some mix but winning in a small fry tournament is pointless if they don't know what defines good. If they don't swim in a bigger pond every now & again. Cannot tell you how many kids and parents swear they are D1 bound and there's zero chance of D3 and much of it is because of attitude. My kid signed a commitment letter in March. College scouts don't care about wins, they care about talent.

Agree 100%.  Wanna see that the kid can play obvious, but after that the coach is concerned with:

Attitude

Grades

Test scores

Talent

 

Never heard a coach said "Oh you didn't beat Ben, Mark, and John."

Usually "What are you currently weakness?  How are you addressing?"

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1 hour ago, mrshinsa said:

 

Argument to this is that playing AND winning in their age appropriate field gets them used to winning, instead of just showing up.

 

Competing in the final group on the last day feels completely different than playing in the middle of the pack, paired up with HS graduates who just started two years ago.  

 

You play to win and I will never argue that.  I never moved my kid up with the "He Can't Win Mind Set.".  If they can compete at the top, you move them up.  Winning at 8/9 means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of getting better and winning at 15.  Nard nailed it with his posts.  College coaches aren't concerned with a kid winning.  They are concerned with the kid being able to put up consistent red numbers.  At that level everyone can play.  Winning in a field of 72 players is hard.  No player ever looked back and said "I won 3 events at 9 on the local USKG and that helped me win today."

Edited by heavy_hitter
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42 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

This is big because answer shows how much a kid own's up to failures and shortcomings. Which conveys degree of self directed growth and the ability to be coached and taught.

My son's future college coach (about 5 weeks from now).  Has texted him after each practice round or tournament.

 

What went right? What went wrong?  Looking back where did you lose any strokes?  What is on the agenda this week?

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Further, not just countries, I would argue that many parents are financing the girls to play at the highest national levels year round.  It seems many girls 13+ are specializing and golfing full time.  The competition is crazy for the girls.  Girls from around the world are competing year round at the top events AJGA, Hurricane, USGA, it's crazy.  It's a massive arms race to achieve the miniscule opportunity of earning a living at golf one day.  What is the hurry?

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16 hours ago, killer21 said:

Further, not just countries, I would argue that many parents are financing the girls to play at the highest national levels year round.  It seems many girls 13+ are specializing and golfing full time.  The competition is crazy for the girls.  Girls from around the world are competing year round at the top events AJGA, Hurricane, USGA, it's crazy.  It's a massive arms race to achieve the miniscule opportunity of earning a living at golf one day.  What is the hurry?

 

There isn't much of a living for a female professional golfer unless you are in the top 30 give or take.  I don't understand that race personally.  Can make more with the degree they earn in college as long it is in the right subject area.

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1 hour ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

There isn't much of a living for a female professional golfer unless you are in the top 30 give or take.  I don't understand that race personally.  Can make more with the degree they earn in college as long it is in the right subject area.

I agree.   We have a local 12y/o girl here who almost qualified for the Women's US Open and has also won a few AJGA's against much older girls.  It's a huge achievement, but didn't seem like many cared.  This girl normally hits a bucket on the range and plays on the course past sunset everyday.  Its normally just her and the dad and the girl looks miserable.   

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35 minutes ago, kekoa said:

I agree.   We have a local 12y/o girl here who almost qualified for the Women's US Open and has also won a few AJGA's against much older girls.  It's a huge achievement, but didn't seem like many cared.  This girl normally hits a bucket on the range and plays on the course past sunset everyday.  Its normally just her and the dad and the girl looks miserable.   

 

We are in San Francisco Bay Area. I talked to a few folks on the course about U.S. Women's Open (hosted in San Francisco) days after the tournament. They were like "huh?". 

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2 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

There isn't much of a living for a female professional golfer unless you are in the top 30 give or take.  I don't understand that race personally.  Can make more with the degree they earn in college as long it is in the right subject area.

 

We are in San Francisco Bay Area. I talked to a few folks on the course about U.S. Women's Open (hosted in San Francisco) days after the tournament. They were like "huh?". Then the conversation proceeds to next week's U.S. Open. 

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4 minutes ago, Medson said:

 

We are in San Francisco Bay Area. I talked to a few folks on the course about U.S. Women's Open (hosted in San Francisco) days after the tournament. They were like "huh?". Then the conversation proceeds to next week's U.S. Open. 

That does not surprise me.  The USGA loses money on the Women's US Open.  The Men's US Open subsidizes that event.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

That does not surprise me.  The USGA loses money on the Women's US Open.  The Men's US Open subsidizes that event.  

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a shame and hopefully Women's sports will grow with the need for more live sports content for media but the arm's race or money spent on 12 year old girls to play at levels above their age is ridiculous.  Everytime a 13 year old plays in the US Open its costing someone a tonne of money for food, lodging, travel, clothes and probably equipment.  Is Avery Zweig making money? It's costing someone a fortune to finance a junior golf career I am guessing or am I wrong?

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16 hours ago, killer21 said:

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a shame and hopefully Women's sports will grow with the need for more live sports content for media but the arm's race or money spent on 12 year old girls to play at levels above their age is ridiculous.  Everytime a 13 year old plays in the US Open its costing someone a tonne of money for food, lodging, travel, clothes and probably equipment.  Is Avery Zweig making money? It's costing someone a fortune to finance a junior golf career I am guessing or am I wrong?

 

I know on the men's side at the elite level a junior isn't paying for a lot.  I would assume Zweig, Pano, and a couple of other girl's aren't either.  The equipment manufacturers and sponsors are covering equipment, travel, and lodging.  Zweig and Pano are exposure for the companies.  I very rarely watch LPGA because I don't find it entertaining.  I don't enjoy watching the internationals play.  At the tournament in Texas I tuned in just to see how Avery was doing.

 

I don't think it is a shame for women's golf or women's sports in general because they aren't entertaining for me.  I may hurt someone's feelings for saying that, but I don't care or come here to be politically correct.  It all comes down to numbers and female viewership for the LPGA is worse than male viewership.  If someone thinks it is entertaining, then watch it.  I don't watch men play baseball either because for me, it is boring.  I think the viewership for a LPGA event breaks down to 20% female and 80% male.  I think the number for PGA breaks down to something like 30% female and 70% male.  If just the 30% female audience from the PGA tuned in to watch a LPGA event that would be more viewers than they have now.  I really don't feel like going in and finding the article these come from, but you can do a google on it.  The link has been posted here on WRX before.

 

In fact, for me, I would find watching the USKG Junior Worlds (boy's or girl's), more entertaining than watching a LPGA event.

Edited by heavy_hitter
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On 7/27/2021 at 10:37 AM, tiger1873 said:

 

A lot these international players are very very motivated. So it is understandable why they get recruited and ultimately end up on a the LPGA. When you play an amateur event and some American girls whine about having to practice 20 hours a week at a D1 college it's an issue.

 

Seeing kids that have a huge work ethic only makes kids want to work harder. Not all kids are like this but mine are. The last AJGA event seeing girls from china learn to play on different grasses and greens was a eye opener.   They're not invincible at all they just work at it.

 

Unless your playing a FJT exempt field the events are little underwhelming. The non-exempts are not even worth doing and not that well run.    In some ways it's easier and faster to gain entry into AJGA via a qualifier then trying to play a FJT Exempt event.

You're about to see a big shift in the next few years of American Woman golf. I believe that in about 3-5 years you will see mainly American women being the dominant force on the LPGA tour. Most of them are at the tail end of a college career or on mini-tours trying to rise through the ranks. One thing we don't do a good enough job here in USA is promote women's golf after college. For the men, they have 30 developmental tours after college to get better and rise to the PGA Tour. Currently, there are only 2 developmental tours for the ladies. In other countries female golfers get help from their country to practice and compete. Here in America, our girls get nothing. Its all on them. This is slowly changing, but it will take a few years.

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14 hours ago, golfer929 said:

You're about to see a big shift in the next few years of American Woman golf. I believe that in about 3-5 years you will see mainly American women being the dominant force on the LPGA tour. Most of them are at the tail end of a college career or on mini-tours trying to rise through the ranks. One thing we don't do a good enough job here in USA is promote women's golf after college. For the men, they have 30 developmental tours after college to get better and rise to the PGA Tour. Currently, there are only 2 developmental tours for the ladies. In other countries female golfers get help from their country to practice and compete. Here in America, our girls get nothing. Its all on them. This is slowly changing, but it will take a few years.

 

I don't see there being a shift at all.  Hope I am wrong, but I am not buying it.

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7 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

I don't see there being a shift at all.  Hope I am wrong, but I am not buying it.

 

I tend to agree it going to get worse not better.  I am seeing more and more international girls playing in tournaments.  In some tournaments the international players outnumber the US based girls. 

 

American girls can and will beat them but  the mental game for a lot girls needs to be stronger to compete..  A lot tours are catering to them too by making the courses shorter and easier. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, golfer929 said:

In June, Nelly Korda became the first American to become World #1 since 2014. I believe it is happening, but we will see.

 

 

This why Americans are in trouble  look at the ratings that JGS does for tournaments overseas.

 

The field for girls in Thailand is much smaller and easier to win then the event in Florida.  US girls don't have a chance in the way rankings work.

 

If you play the events in Thailand as a girl you get a 2-5 stroke advantage playing there.  They can score 80 and outrank the majority here in the US.

 

It's even worse for other rankings like WAGR. Many foreign kids got exemptions to US Girls Junior this year.

 

This means US girls are losing access to the best tournaments and not getting the  experience to compete at the highest levels.

 

The ways things are going we are going to have to travel to asia to play in tournaments.

 

 

RACE #5 of 5th TJGGA JUNIOR TALENT YEAR 2020-2021

Royal Hills Golf Resort and Spa

Mueng, -- TH

MAR 20 - 21, 2021

Type: first come residency required
Field Size: 100
Entry Deadline: 1/15/2021

 

Girls Age: 15-18
  • Round 1: Yardage: 6160 Rating: 76.8
  • Round 2: Yardage: 6160 Rating: 76.8 (80.8 adj)

 

 

Compare this to a FJT where you need to gain an exempt status to even compete.

 

FJT Palm Aire CC - Champions Course (Exempt)

Palm Aire CC - Champions

Sarasota, FL US

MAR 20 - 21, 2021

Type: FSGA Membership required
Field Size: 84
Entry Deadline: 2/10/2021

 

 

Girls Age: 13-18
  • Round 1: Yardage: 5964 Rating: 74.6
  • Round 2: Yardage: 5964 Rating: 74.6

 

 

 

Edited by tiger1873
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1 hour ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

This why Americans are in trouble  look at the ratings that JGS does for tournaments overseas.

 

The field for girls in Thailand is much smaller and easier to win then the event in Florida.  US girls don't have a chance in the way rankings work.

 

If you play the events in Thailand as a girl you get a 2-5 stroke advantage playing there.  They can score 80 and outrank the majority here in the US.

 

It's even worse for other rankings like WAGR. Many foreign kids got exemptions to US Girls Junior this year.

 

This means US girls are losing access to the best tournaments and not getting the  experience to compete at the highest levels.

 

The ways things are going we are going to have to travel to asia to play in tournaments.

 

 

RACE #5 of 5th TJGGA JUNIOR TALENT YEAR 2020-2021

Royal Hills Golf Resort and Spa

Mueng, -- TH

MAR 20 - 21, 2021

Type: first come residency required
Field Size: 100
Entry Deadline: 1/15/2021

 

Girls Age: 15-18
  • Round 1: Yardage: 6160 Rating: 76.8
  • Round 2: Yardage: 6160 Rating: 76.8 (80.8 adj)

 

 

Compare this to a FJT where you need to gain an exempt status to even compete.

 

FJT Palm Aire CC - Champions Course (Exempt)

Palm Aire CC - Champions

Sarasota, FL US

MAR 20 - 21, 2021

Type: FSGA Membership required
Field Size: 84
Entry Deadline: 2/10/2021

 

 

Girls Age: 13-18
  • Round 1: Yardage: 5964 Rating: 74.6
  • Round 2: Yardage: 5964 Rating: 74.6

 

 

 

 

Completely different topic.  JGS has gone south with the ratings.  AJGA always gets an adjustment up with no rhyme or reason.  JGS should justify why the ratings are moved up or down.  It is honestly silly.

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Just now, heavy_hitter said:

 

Completely different topic.  JGS has gone south with the ratings.  AJGA always gets an adjustment up with no rhyme or reason.  JGS should justify why the ratings are moved up or down.  It is honestly silly.

 

I agree the last few months JGS has just gone wacky.  It's to the point that it not really a reliable indicator of rankings anymore.

 

You not completely off topic because people pick tournaments based on rankings.

 

In the past you would move up to better and better tournaments everyone played them and your JGS ranking would climb.   It wasn't always fair but it did at least make sense.   

 

Now you can play US Kids events events and outrank regular FJT or Kids even playing AJGA.  It's like there trying to make a prediction of who is going to be the best player not who is the best player. 

 

In Some cases I see the adjustment happens when higher ranked players do worse while players improving do not get an adjustment up. It like it is based on whoever wins.

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Playing a mix of tournaments is probably the right answer.  There's value in playing events where you can score low and potentially win as well as value in playing harder venues along side higher caliber players to see what it really takes and where you need to improve.  Playing up too early or often can stagnate some kids.  They can grow accustomed to grinding in the middle or back of the pack.  I see this with some young teens who can shoot pretty solid scores from close to 7,000yds but can't go low if you move them up to 6,400.

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On 8/8/2021 at 12:47 AM, golfer929 said:

Update: An American just won the Olympic Gold Medal

 

It's great we seen an American win at the olympics but one event doesn't change what I see out there with girls.  There are simply just more girls playing at higher levels from foreign countries then ever at a higher levels.

 

I am not talking about local or state level but national events and on D1 college rosters.  In some cases they may list places in the US as their home town but that is only because there is a bit of a backlash so they do not broadcast there actually from another country.  When you play some these events it's literally like you it's a UN event people from all over the world. Not the worst thing in the world but does present new challenges.

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      Odyssey putters - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship  
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      • 5 replies
    • 2021 Fortinet Championship - Discussion and Links
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #1
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      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #6
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #7
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      New Ping putter - 2021 Fortinet Championship
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      Sneds - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
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      • 19 replies
    • 2021 Tour Championship - Discussion and Comments
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      Odyssey putters - 2021 Tour Championship
      LA Golf putter shafts - 2021 Tour Championship
       
       
       
      • 25 replies

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