Provisionals help

[FreeWilly613]

Second shot from the fairway lands in the rough near the red stakes.   The rough was thick and I couldn't find my ball in the rough or the ditch OB. 

 

Due to pace of play it was impractical to return to the last shot location, so I dropped a ball and duffed it 30 yards.  Walking to the dropped ball I found my original ball in play.

 

At this point I shot my original ball picked up the provisional, And carried on with the hole.  

 

I don't think I played it according to the rule.  So what should I have done?

 

Lost ball OB penalty and drop @ point of entry. 1 stroke penalty?

Edited July 27, 2021 by GwrxMod

[Colin L]

Unless there was a Local Rule in place allowing the alternative to stroke and distance for your lost ball, you had to return to where you played your second shot and play from there with a one stroke penalty.

[2bGood]

A few things to unpack in your post as you are mixing terminology:

 

Red stakes do not show where OB is they show where a red penalty area is. If you were virally certain the ball was in the Red Penalty area you would have the option to:

1. Play it (if you found it)

2.Take Back on Line Relief (unlikely an option here, but look it up for how to do this)

3.Stroke and Distance (go back to where you last hit)

4.Drop within 2 club lengths of where it cross into the penalty area

Note unless there is local rule in place you do not have an option to hit a provisional at all if you thought your ball was in the penalty area.

 

If the area was OB it would be marked with White stakes or lines. Your option would only be stroke and distance (go back to where you hit). But a provisional would be legal and should be hit the same place at the same time as where you hit your last shot. There is Model Local Rule E5 that could be an option (the course you were playing at would have to have it in place). This would allow you to come to the fairway no closer to the hole and be lying 4.

 

Or you could just be dealing with a lost ball in the rough.

 

Answering your question depends allot on what you thought you were doing and where you thought the ball was (in the penalty area or lost or OB?)

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by 2bGood

[Krt22]

It sounds like it was a red penalty area and not OB, in which case you had to be virtually certain it was in the penalty area and not a lost ball. In this case I don't think that certainty was met, since you could not tell if it was lost in the rough or lost in the PA. So you should have returned to where you hit your 2nd and hit from there assuming it was a lost ball under the stroke and distance penalty

 

The question is if your "provisional" drop was correct or not.  Best case scenario, it was a provisional played from the wrong place, so additional 2 stroke penalty.(although I'm not sure if a provisional played from the wrong place is really a provisional). Worst case you essentially abandoned your search, in which case it was no longer a provisional and now the ball in play. In this case you didn't finish the hole with the correct ball, so if you teed off on the next hole without holing out with the correct ball, you would be disqualified.

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, FreeWilly613 said:

Second shot from the fairway lands in the rough near the red stakes.   The rough was thick and I couldn't find my ball in the rough or the ditch OB. 

 

Due to pace of play it was impractical to return to the last shot location, so I dropped a ball and duffed it 30 yards.  Walking to the dropped ball I found my original ball in play.

 

At this point I shot my original ball picked up the provisional, And carried on with the hole.  

 

I don't think I played it according to the rule.  So what should I have done?

 

Lost ball OB penalty and drop @ point of entry. 1 stroke penalty?

 

6 hours ago, Krt22 said:

It sounds like it was a red penalty area and not OB, in which case you had to be virtually certain it was in the penalty area and not a lost ball. In this case I don't think that certainty was met, since you could not tell if it was lost in the rough or lost in the PA. So you should have returned to where you hit your 2nd and hit from there assuming it was a lost ball under the stroke and distance penalty

 

The question is if your "provisional" drop was correct or not.  Best case scenario, it was a provisional played from the wrong place, so additional 2 stroke penalty.(although I'm not sure if a provisional played from the wrong place is really a provisional). Worst case you essentially abandoned your search, in which case it was no longer a provisional and now the ball in play. In this case you didn't finish the hole with the correct ball, so if you teed off on the next hole without holing out with the correct ball, you would be disqualified.

 

He didn't play a provisional or a "provisional".

 

This is my take.

 

I tend to agree with you that OB is not a consideration here although I guess both the PA and OB could've been close to one another.

 

In this case his drop could only be a PA or E-5 OB drop. Sounds like where he dropped could've been the proper relief area for either circumstance. Only difference would be PA is 1 stroke and OB is 2. 

 

But once he determined it was in the PA (OR E-5) and hit the dropped ball, that ball is in play. The original ball, even though found further up, is no longer in play.

 

So once he abandoned the "duffed ball" and played the original, he played a wrong ball to the hole.

 

As you mention, without correcting, he's DQ'd.

 

I'll come back later to see how badly I did and what corrections da boyz make.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

He didn't play a provisional or a "provisional".

 

This is my take.

 

I tend to agree with you that OB is not a consideration here although I guess both the PA and OB could've been close to one another.

 

In this case his drop could only be a PA or E-5 OB drop. Sounds like where he dropped could've been the proper relief area for either circumstance. Only difference would be PA is 1 stroke and OB is 2. 

 

But once he determined it was in the PA (OR E-5) and hit the dropped ball, that ball is in play. The original ball, even though found further up, is no longer in play.

 

So once he abandoned the "duffed ball" and played the original, he played a wrong ball to the hole.

 

As you mention, without correcting, he's DQ'd.

 

I'll come back later to see how badly I did and what corrections da boyz make.

Not only that, the dropped ball was dropped in a wrong place (correct place is where he played his second shot from the fairway) and was likely a serious breach due to distance gained.  This needs to be corrected by returning to the place where he had played the second shot, and a two stroke penalty.  If this is not corrected before playing from the next tee, he is dq'd.

Now the question is about playing the wrong ball - the original ball.  I would suggest that those two penalty strokes do not "disappear" when he is correcting the wrong place issue.

[nsxguy]

58 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Not only that, the dropped ball was dropped in a wrong place (correct place is where he played his second shot from the fairway) and was likely a serious breach due to distance gained.  This needs to be corrected by returning to the place where he had played the second shot, and a two stroke penalty.  If this is not corrected before playing from the next tee, he is dq'd.

 

Now the question is about playing the wrong ball - the original ball.  I would suggest that those two penalty strokes do not "disappear" when he is correcting the wrong place issue.

 

Depends on what the drop was for. It's a little unclear. And we don't know about E-5 being in effect (or not).

 

If he was KVC it was either OB or in the PA, the drop MAY have been correct. i.e. he didn't have to go back.

 

But doesn't the DQ come from him playing the original after correctly dropping, playing a shot with the dropped ball (which is NOW the ball in play) and then finding the original 30 yards forward and then reverting to it ?!?!?!  And if he hits a shot from the next tee without going all the way back to the DROPPED ball, and finishing with IT, he is DQ ?

 

[rogolf]

15 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Depends on what the drop was for. It's a little unclear. And we don't know about E-5 being in effect (or not).

 

If he was KVC it was either OB or in the PA, the drop MAY have been correct. i.e. he didn't have to go back.

 

But doesn't the DQ come from him playing the original after correctly dropping, playing a shot with the dropped ball (which is NOW the ball in play) and then finding the original 30 yards forward and then reverting to it ?!?!?!  And if he hits a shot from the next tee without going all the way back to the DROPPED ball, and finishing with IT, he is DQ ?

 

That may be the situation if he does not correct the wrong ball issue before playing from the next tee.  However, if it is not known or virtually certain (must be determined within three minutes of searching) that the original ball is in the penalty area, the only applicable Rule for the dropped ball is stroke and distance (18.1) and he has played from a wrong place (Rule 14.7).  If there is a serious breach of the Rules, he must correct that error by playing from the right place- where he played his second shot from the fairway.

We don't know anything about E-5 (which is not applicable to a penalty area) so I'm discounting that at present.

[nsxguy]

10 minutes ago, rogolf said:

That may be the situation if he does not correct the wrong ball issue before playing from the next tee.  However, if it is not known or virtually certain (must be determined within three minutes of searching) that the original ball is in the penalty area, the only applicable Rule for the dropped ball is stroke and distance (18.1) and he has played from a wrong place (Rule 14.7).  If there is a serious breach of the Rules, he must correct that error by playing from the right place- where he played his second shot from the fairway.

We don't know anything about E-5 (which is not applicable to a penalty area) so I'm discounting that at present.

 

I guess we should wait until the OP clarifies but we're both using too many words.

 

Let me try this.

 

KVC in PA - drop was good

 

KVC OB - IF E-5 is in effect, drop was likely good

 

KVC OB - NO E-5, bad drop - must take S&D

 

LOST BALL - same as above for OB

 

 

He made a stroke with the dropped ball THEN found the original.

 

He then abandoned the dropped ball to finish the hole with original.

 

Tees off without correcting anything - DQ

 

Does that about cover it ?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by nsxguy

[rogolf]

16 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I guess we should wait until the OP clarifies but we're both using too many words.

 

Let me try this.

 

KVC in PA - drop was good

 

KVC OB - IF E-5 is in effect, drop was likely good

 

KVC OB - NO E-5, bad drop - must take S&D

 

LOST BALL - same as above for OB

 

 

He made a stroke with the dropped ball THEN found the original.

 

He then abandoned the dropped ball to finish the hole with original.

 

Tees off without correcting anything - DQ

 

Does that about cover it ?

 

 

 

 

Yes, he's in a whole heap of trouble!  If not dq, strokes yet to be determined.

[FreeWilly613]

Thanks for the detailed responses,  so essentially it was a provisional from the wrong place after abandoning search, so I should be DQ for what I did.  It was a friendly game and I'm the rule guy of the group anyways, but I don't want to be touting them improperly.

 

So essentially when I hit my original shot towards the rough and Ditch PA and suspected it may be lost I could have played a provisional. Then went an began  my search for the original.

 

If found the provisional could have been abandoned, original ball played no issue.  if not found  stroke and distance penalty added and finish hole with the provisional?

 

Only local rules allow me to take a penalty drop WITHOUT returning to original shot position.  Likely due to the time it takes for a 3 min search and 150 yard walk back for another shot.  

 

Isn't it a bit ironic these rules a largely applicable to amateurs yet can be quite a steep learning curve.

Edited July 28, 2021 by FreeWilly613

[nsxguy]

17 minutes ago, FreeWilly613 said:

1) Thanks for the detailed responses,  so essentially it was a provisional from the wrong place after abandoning search, so I should be DQ for what I did.  It was a friendly game and I'm the rule guy of the group anyways, but I don't want to be touting them improperly.

 

2) So essentially when I hit my original shot towards the rough and Ditch PA and suspected it may be lost I could have played a provisional. Then went an began  my search for the original.

 

If found the provisional could have been abandoned, original ball played no issue.  if not found  stroke and distance penalty added and finish hole with the provisional?

 

3) Only local rules allow me to take a penalty drop WITHOUT returning to original shot position.  Likely due to the time it takes for a 3 min search and 150 yard walk back for another shot.  

 

Isn't it a bit ironic these rules a largely applicable to amateurs yet can be quite a steep learning curve.

 

My friend, you are still rather fuzzy.

 

(#1) WHERE was the provisional in your original story ? You said you didn't want to go back. I see ZERO evidence of you actually HITTING a provisional.

 

(#2) YES, you could have hit a provisional originally IF you thought the ball might be lost or OB. If you thought the ball had gone INTO a penalty area, then NO, no provisional. (This is kind of a fuzzy area but it's up to YOU. If YOU think it may be lost (as opposed to be in the PA, you CAN hit the provisional).

 

(#3) NO, not "only local rules allow you a drop". IF you were in the penalty area, you get a drop outside of it for a cost a 1 stroke. The only local rule HERE is IF you were OB. There is a local rule (E-5), that when in effect, allows you to drop in a large relief area (usually) INCLUDING the fairway.

 

 

 

 

 

[FreeWilly613]

9 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

My friend, you are still rather fuzzy.

 

(#1) WHERE was the provisional in your original story ? You said you didn't want to go back. I see ZERO evidence of you actually HITTING a provisional.

 

(#2) YES, you could have hit a provisional originally IF you thought the ball might be lost or OB. If you thought the ball had gone INTO a penalty area, then NO, no provisional. (This is kind of a fuzzy area but it's up to YOU. If YOU think it may be lost (as opposed to be in the PA, you CAN hit the provisional).

 

(#3) NO, not "only local rules allow you a drop". IF you were in the penalty area, you get a drop outside of it for a cost a 1 stroke. The only local rule HERE is IF you were OB. There is a local rule (E-5), that when in effect, allows you to drop in a large relief area (usually) INCLUDING the fairway.

 

 

 

 

 

#1 there was no provisional, I misinterpreted the rules dropped a ball hit it and continued my walk along the PA ditch, found my original ball and finished the hole with it. Picking up the dropped ball. 

DQ understood 

 

#2 multiple times per round I have to decide, will I find my ball there? Should I hit a provisional.  I will have to be more liberal with the provisional in guess.

 

#3 OB local rule drops are 2 penalty strokes correct

[nsxguy]

3 minutes ago, FreeWilly613 said:

#1 there was no provisional, I misinterpreted the rules dropped a ball hit it and continued my walk along the PA ditch, found my original ball and finished the hole with it. Picking up the dropped ball. 

DQ understood 

 

#2 multiple times per round I have to decide, will I find my ball there? Should I hit a provisional.  I will have to be more liberal with the provisional in guess.

 

#3 OB local rule drops are 2 penalty strokes correct

 

That's pretty good.

 

For #3, since the Rules change of 1/1/19, the local rule is E-5 and most(?) casual players and lower level tournaments use the local rule.

 

It's to speed up play so that the player, when he's lost his ball, doesn't have to traipse back up the fairway, in front of the upset/angry/impatient 4-some behind them and hit another ball,,,,,,,,,,,, while they fume.

 

High level tournaments do NOT use the local rule. Most casual games do use it.

[Newby]

9 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

That's pretty good.

 

For #3, since the Rules change of 1/1/19, the local rule is E-5 and most(?) casual players and lower level tournaments use the local rule.

 

It's to speed up play so that the player, when he's lost his ball, doesn't have to traipse back up the fairway, in front of the upset/angry/impatient 4-some behind them and hit another ball,,,,,,,,,,,, while they fume.

 

High level tournaments do NOT use the local rule. Most casual games do use it.

My impression is that most clubs over here do not use the LR.

[TerpFangolfer]

This thread seems like a good place to pose this follow-on question. Something I've dealt witha a few times recently.

 

Like some opinions from the rules guys here - same exact scenario that the OP posed to begin with...but say he did announce that he was hitting a Prov from the original spot in case it might be lost outside the PA.

 

When someone hits a prov because it was going in the direction of both high grass (or other junk) plus also a PA nearby. It just seems to me that it is very unlikely in that case that you can ever have KVC (95%) of the ball being in the PA. Do you all agree? Unless you get up there and it turns out the rough is lower than you thought. 

Had a guy try this in a recent event. We look and can't find the ball so he says "It must be in the PA" I expressed I didn't believe we had KVC that it was in - I think he (like a lot of players) think that KVC is a 50/50 thing...

 

Just wondering thoughts here...how often (if ever?) have you seen a case where a player hits a Prov due to possibility of a ball being lost outside the PA, bit then you determine there is KVC that it is in the PA. Seems unless an outside source comes to light (i.e. another player/spectator says "I saw it roll into the PA") it is highly unlikely?

 

 

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, TerpFangolfer said:

This thread seems like a good place to pose this follow-on question. Something I've dealt witha a few times recently.

 

Like some opinions from the rules guys here - same exact scenario that the OP posed to begin with...but say he did announce that he was hitting a Prov from the original spot in case it might be lost outside the PA.

 

When someone hits a prov because it was going in the direction of both high grass (or other junk) plus also a PA nearby. It just seems to me that it is very unlikely in that case that you can ever have KVC (95%) of the ball being in the PA. Do you all agree? Unless you get up there and it turns out the rough is lower than you thought. 

Had a guy try this in a recent event. We look and can't find the ball so he says "It must be in the PA" I expressed I didn't believe we had KVC that it was in - I think he (like a lot of players) think that KVC is a 50/50 thing...

 

Just wondering thoughts here...how often (if ever?) have you seen a case where a player hits a Prov due to possibility of a ball being lost outside the PA, bit then you determine there is KVC that it is in the PA. Seems unless an outside source comes to light (i.e. another player/spectator says "I saw it roll into the PA") it is highly unlikely?

 

 

"Known" is very clear - there is no doubt.  "Virtually certain" leaves a small amount (5%) of doubt.  When I am refereeing, I insist that the 95% certainty is met, it's a very high standard for a reason - there is usually a significant advantage gained by the player.  I will ask myself and the player, "Could the ball be anywhere else?"  Rough surrounding the penalty area means the ball could be somewhere else and I'll decide that the ball is not in the penalty area, but is lost.

Of course, there are different heights and types of rough, so each situation is slightly different.  To sum up, it's an uphill battle for the player to convince me that a ball not found "must be in the penalty area".

 

[Newby]

20 minutes ago, rogolf said:

"Known" is very clear - there is no doubt.  "Virtually certain" leaves a small amount (5%) of doubt.  When I am refereeing, I insist that the 95% certainty is met, it's a very high standard for a reason - there is usually a significant advantage gained by the player.  I will ask myself and the player, "Could the ball be anywhere else?"  Rough surrounding the penalty area means the ball could be somewhere else and I'll decide that the ball is not in the penalty area, but is lost.

Of course, there are different heights and types of rough, so each situation is slightly different.  To sum up, it's an uphill battle for the player to convince me that a ball not found "must be in the penalty area".

 

I agree with all that.

 

But the decision has to be made when you get to the scene. eg An obscured area surrounding the PA may usually be rough but today it is closely mown. Or vice versa.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Newby

[nsxguy]

47 minutes ago, Newby said:

My impression is that most clubs over here do not use the LR.

 

Sorry, at times I tend to forget this is a global board, not a local (American) one.

 

Then again, I did say "Most casual games".

 

It is my impression that in GB, there are a far higher percentage of "competition rounds" (as opposed to here in the States) played making it far more likely you wouldn't be using E-5.

 

Thanks.

[Krt22]

14 hours ago, FreeWilly613 said:

#1 there was no provisional, I misinterpreted the rules dropped a ball hit it and continued my walk along the PA ditch, found my original ball and finished the hole with it. Picking up the dropped ball. 

DQ understood 

 

#2 multiple times per round I have to decide, will I find my ball there? Should I hit a provisional.  I will have to be more liberal with the provisional in guess.

 

#3 OB local rule drops are 2 penalty strokes correct

For casual rounds, I would for the most part just use the local rule E5 and take your 2 strokes. But if you do choose to hit a provisional, yes you should do it immediately after hitting the shot from the same place if there is any question that it may be lost and you can't be certain it's in a PA

[Pfish]

Somewhat the same topic.  A ball on the tee hit right into trees and bushes. Player thinks probably lost so hits a provisional.  When walking down fairway player discovers the area where the original ball went in is marked as a red penalty area. (They didn’t know that area was a penalty area until they walked by).  Then player takes a drop which would have been correct but for the fact they hit a provisional which was abandoned. Rest of round completed and score cards turned in and signed.  It’s days later what should be done now?  I was in the foursome but not scoring or player.  Been thinking about it though.

[Newby]

11 minutes ago, Pfish said:

Somewhat the same topic.  A ball on the tee hit right into trees and bushes. Player thinks probably lost so hits a provisional.  When walking down fairway player discovers the area where the original ball went in is marked as a red penalty area. (They didn’t know that area was a penalty area until they walked by).  Then player takes a drop which would have been correct but for the fact they hit a provisional which was abandoned. Rest of round completed and score cards turned in and signed.  It’s days later what should be done now?  I was in the foursome but not scoring or player.  Been thinking about it though.

The player was correct in taking a provisional as he was not certain that the ball was in a PA and thought it might be lost elsewhere.

Once he realised the ball was in a PA he correctly abandoned the provisional and took a lateral penalty (I assume?) drop for the ball in the PA on the basis it was 95% certain the ball was in the PA (whether actually visible or not).

[Augster]

3 hours ago, Pfish said:

Somewhat the same topic.  A ball on the tee hit right into trees and bushes. Player thinks probably lost so hits a provisional.  When walking down fairway player discovers the area where the original ball went in is marked as a red penalty area. (They didn’t know that area was a penalty area until they walked by).  Then player takes a drop which would have been correct but for the fact they hit a provisional which was abandoned. Rest of round completed and score cards turned in and signed.  It’s days later what should be done now?  I was in the foursome but not scoring or player.  Been thinking about it though.

I agree with Newby 100%. 
 

Player hits it into the trees right and hits a provisional. Just fine. He walks up to look for it in the trees and realizes all the trees are a PA.
 

If he’s KVC his ball stayed in the PA, he abandons the provisional and takes a PA drop, hitting 3. 

 

If he isn’t KVC his original ball is in the PA, he plays on with the provisional ball hitting 4.