Don't start the downswing with the hips. Start with the arms.

[mangohead]

Took a lesson from a top rated pro.  He said I was turning my hips too soon, as my first move.  Arms trailing the hips.  Hips already half turned so nothing left to drive the arms.  

He also said this is why I am hooking the ball.

 

He said to speed up my arms.  Let the hips and arms turn together.  Don't release the hips too soon.   Start the swing with my arms, not my hips.

 

Referenced the Hogan book, he also has me line up to the ball with my right foot staggered 6 inches behind the left foot. 

This makes it harder to release your hips too early.   

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by mangohead

[Will29]

So basically what Monte has been shouting from the roof tops for years. 

[Pepperturbo]

It's always been my belief, arms and hips need to work together on timing.  Left hip turning left too fast, leaving arms behind can cause club-face impact angle problems and dreaded dispersion. 

[Nickc]

" bump, dump and turn" to quote someone !

Or centre, drop arms (cast) and turn .

(With bump/ centreing starting before back swing complete.. ideally)

Edited July 27, 2021 by Nickc

[smashdn]

While he is having you reference Hogan, ask him what Hogan thought started the downswing.

[Zitlow]

People will be hunting and pecking the rest of their lives and never improve. Why create slack and hit it with just the mass of the arms instead of the mass of your entire right side?

 

Slack kills the flow of energy and starting down with the arms disrupts the synergy (the sum of all parts working together is greater than each individual part). 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Zitlow

[Zitlow]

55 minutes ago, iSwing said:

 

Keeping stomach out of the shot in the downswing while extending the arm has been around for over 100 years, so nothing new- repackaged material. 

 

As you know just because it's repackaged doesn't make it good. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Zitlow

[dlygrisse]

This is pretty common teaching now days, most good teachers are realizing this.  In Byron Nelsons book he stated to "start everything down together"  it's a swing thought that has worked for me over the years.  Too many people got caught up in Hogans book where it showed the left hip pulling the the club through.  

[Valtiel]

This is all relative to the individual and a "feel vs real" thing. Tiger talked about that feel back in 2000, but because his hips were so fast that he needed to feel like his hands went first. They did not of course, it is merely a feel to get into the right place. 

Bad sequencing is an extremely common issue, and i'd wager it is far more common for people to *actually* lead their downswing with the hands/arms and end up with all the classic problems because of it. 

[golfarb1]

From the best ball striker of all time

and the best player of all time

 

Ben Hogan

” think of starting the downswing from the ground up with the lower body moving first and the upper body moving second”

 

Jack Nicklaus 

“I try to sense the clubhead  lagging until the downswing has been initiated by my feet and legs at which point I know that I can safely release  with my hands and arms”

 

Top players start their pelvis ( via the sacrum  at the base of the spine ) moving towards the target before the backswing has ended . This is the key to really compress the ball.
Their initial move in transition  is  to start their lead hip to externally rotate which will  by definition cause the lead knee to rotate towards the target and will transfer more weight into the lead foot. George Gankas teaches an exaggerated version of this  move.After their lead foot is weighted , then lateral motion is complete and rotation of the pelvis and particularly the rib cage will become the dominant force . 

 

Most less talented players find numerous ways to introduce mistakes into their motion.
Some start rotating before they weight their lead foot , thus spinning around their rear foot. 
Others move their pelvis  and lead hips too much laterally   , thus resulting in the hips out of synch  with their arms . 

Others get their trail arms  too far behind their body going back guaranteeing a hip stall and flip at impact.

 

There is ONE rule in golf instruction that dominates over all others

”If it works keep on doing it , no matter what anyone tells you .”
So if the concept of starting your arms down first improves your ball striking , then continue to do so , even if the best players  start from the ground up.

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by golfarb1

[Obee]

Hogan's ball position / foot position rules are ... interesting. 

 

Open stance with a wedge from a ball-forward position. That works great for a soft wedge, not so great for a driving wedge shot. Like @iSwing mentioned, "...depends on what's being done for the shot attempt."

[Nickc]

Old teaching always had left heel lifting in back swing. Planting this back down at the start of the downswing (or initiating just before bs complete) will start downswing with weight/pressure shift to left/centreing/ side/lead hip moving back etc

Don't need to lift it a lot.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Nickc

[zacgolf]

As above. Bob MacDonald Drills

 

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

This is all you need. It's pointless listening to what old pros thought they did or felt they did when we can now measure what good players actually do. 

 

Basically, the downswing takes 0.2 seconds. It always starts from the ground up, but if you try and feel that you'll be out of sequence. That's how people get stuck and never ever improve. 

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

This one really highlights the difference between pros and ams when it comes to arm speed.

 

 

[smashdn]

Try to get your hands coming down and from the inside without starting to clear your lead hip and get hip turn.  It will feel awful and all arms.

[sekrah]

"Bump, Dump, Turn"

 

Don't forget the bump. That's the window for your arms to dump.  Trying to dump your arms before you bump your hips is a massive mistake and where many - including myself - were confused for years.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by sekrah

[TheDeanAbides]

35 minutes ago, iSwing said:

 

What swing movement is in style today and how it's measured is one thing, and how things may, or may not, have been sequenced in the past without being subjected to computer analysis is another, but listening to past masters of the game from its earliest beginnings through the persimmon era is priceless information, and they were actually good  players doing what they do.  

It's got nothing to do with what is or isn't in style. Feel is not real, and it doesn't matter if that's Jones, Hogan, Norman or Nicklaus. 

I didn't, however, say that there's nothing to learn from great players (I think it's obvious from my avatar that I value our golfing history), but you cannot take what they said they did literally. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[smashdn]

Also, how are the arms initiating the downswing if the hips are moving and the weight shift is occurring before the backswing is completed at the top?

[TheDeanAbides]

5 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Also, how are the arms initiating the downswing if the hips are moving and the weight shift is occurring before the backswing is completed at the top?

The arms are not initiating the downswing, but it has to feel like they are. The entire downswing happens in 0.2 of a second. The arms of nearly all ams work far too slow, so feeling like you speed them up slows the body rotation from the top, stops them spinning out and gets the arms into the slot to hit effectively. 

 

RE weight shift. The weight is not shifting before the arms reach the top - that's pressure shift. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[MK7Golf21]

Got to love the instructors who tell you to fire the lead knee out to start the downswing. Yea that’s real good for the knee joint when your foot is planted in the ground, lol. 

[Paddy_2_Iron]

The hardest part of the golf swing is finding out what works for you.......

Edited July 28, 2021 by Paddy_2_Iron

[TheDeanAbides]

Just now, Paddy_2_Iron said:

They hardest part of the golf swing is finding out what works for you.......

The hardest part of the golf swing is finding out that what you need to do to have a good swing is almost the opposite of what you feel like you should do. We feel like we have to take a direct line back to the ball from the top. It's utterly counterintuitive to be told that the club has to essentially be thrown behind and away from us. 

[Paddy_2_Iron]

3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

This is all you need. It's pointless listening to what old pros thought they did or felt they did when we can now measure what good players actually do. 

 

Basically, the downswing takes 0.2 seconds. It always starts from the ground up, but if you try and feel that you'll be out of sequence. That's how people get stuck and never ever improve. 

 

 

 

Love the comment about looking at it blown up.  It ruins the athletics of the swing.  

[Paddy_2_Iron]

2 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The hardest part of the golf swing is finding out that what you need to do to have a good swing is almost the opposite of what you feel like you should do. We feel like we have to take a direct line back to the ball from the top. It's utterly counterintuitive to be told that the club has to essentially be thrown behind and away from us. 

 

You put too many caveats on it. 

 

The hardest part of the golf swing is finding out that what you need to do to have a good swing.   This is where you should of stopped.  Not everyone experiences the same challenges in the swing....  

 

Each person is different and needs different instruction.  That's why most instructors fail from my experiences, they try to force you into one model.  It doesn't work.  

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

 

You put too many caveats on it. 

 

The hardest part of the golf swing is finding out that what you need to do to have a good swing.   This is where you should of stopped.  Not everyone experiences the same challenges in the swing....  

 

Each person is different and needs different instruction.  That's why most instructors fail from my experiences, they try to force you into one model.  It doesn't work.  

Every good swing requires the club to enter the hitting zone from the same place. You can get upset if you don't want to hear that but it is an indisputable fact. How you feel that may be personal, but it's never going to change that it's true. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, iSwing said:

 

That is not necessarily true for all aspects and I don't have the energy to explain it to you, but if I feel I place the club head on the ground 1" from the ball you can bet your mortgage I am +/- 1/16 of an inch from being spot on, so some areas of feel can be quite acute. 

 

Question:  If the lead knee locks and straightens just prior to impact it sends the torso backward, but yet the torso continues to move forward- two motions as one but opposed.   How would today's measuring devices measure both sides of the duality, and which one is the real, and which one is the feel. 

 

I'm out. I've had these kind of discussions before with people who just enjoy being contrary. No more. Thanks. Bye. 

[Paddy_2_Iron]

3 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Every good swing requires the club to enter the hitting zone from the same place. You can get upset if you don't want to hear that but it is an indisputable fact. How you feel that may be personal, but it's never going to change that it's true. 

 

Dean I've taken lessons from some of the best in the Jax area, I speak from THEIR experiences and I am going to another fantastic instructor tomorrow at 11 am.   I'll follow up once I get confirmation once again.  

 

Besides you are moving the field goals.  You mentioned feels.....    Feels mean different things to different people, it's not quantitative at ALL.  

Edited July 28, 2021 by Paddy_2_Iron

[TheDeanAbides]

Just now, Paddy_2_Iron said:

 

Dean I've taken lessons from some of the best in the Jax area, I speak from THEIR experiences and I am going to another fantastic instructor tomorrow at 11 am.   I'll follow up once I get confirmation once again.  

You go and have a lovely time. I hope it improves your game. 

[Paddy_2_Iron]

1 minute ago, TheDeanAbides said:

You go and have a lovely time. I hope it improves your game. 

 

Thanks.  

 

I personally hope it gives me additional understanding so I can improve own game.  That's what the goal is.  

Edited July 28, 2021 by Paddy_2_Iron