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Don't start the downswing with the hips. Start with the arms.


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15 hours ago, Valtiel said:

This is all relative to the individual and a "feel vs real" thing. Tiger talked about that feel back in 2000, but because his hips were so fast that he needed to feel like his hands went first. They did not of course, it is merely a feel to get into the right place. 

Bad sequencing is an extremely common issue, and i'd wager it is far more common for people to *actually* lead their downswing with the hands/arms and end up with all the classic problems because of it. 

I know for myself I have to "feel" like my hips start my down swing and let the arms follow suit.  I do realize that proper sequencing is the ideal way to hit a good shot but my first instructor taught me to swing this way.  Over the years, I've worked on my swing meticulously but this has always been my go to.  For me anyways, I feel like when I fire my hips through the zone and let the arms do it's thing, as long as my balance is good, my shot will be decent contact but face control will vary wildly.  I can live with that compared to the opposite which is when I "feel" like my arms start first and my hips either don't get to my left or there is very little hip rotation in general.  This type of swing always leads to the poorest of results with terrible contact and unpredictable outcomes.  

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Sequencing is real but reality is many people including myself do not accelerate the hands fast enough or soon enough. I work on this a lot, and when it's right it's a massive change and it's all positive. Getting hands back in front of torso without stalling out rotation is easier said than done. Proper hip clearance where their depth is maintained and tush line stays away from ball line is a huge key in it working.

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16 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

This is pretty common teaching now days, most good teachers are realizing this.  In Byron Nelsons book he stated to "start everything down together"  it's a swing thought that has worked for me over the years.  Too many people got caught up in Hogans book where it showed the left hip pulling the the club through.  

 

I never saw this comment by Nelson but that's what I have learned to have a connected swing. When I start thinking about individual body movements to start the downswing everything gets disconnected and I generally hurt my problematic back.

 

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20 hours ago, mangohead said:

Took a lesson from a top rated pro.  He said I was turning my hips too soon, as my first move.  Arms trailing the hips.  Hips already half turned so nothing left to drive the arms.  

He also said this is why I am hooking the ball.

 

 

 

 

From what I can tell there is not way to turn the hips to fast or early if one has a "connected" swing and the right leg is loaded sufficiently, like a baseball batter with his left leg up in the air there is no way he can turn his hips too fast until he puts his left foot down.

 

My advice would be two things - always push the left hand back and away after initially turning the shoulders to start the swing so that the right side loads easily and when you get it right there is no way to turn the hips too early or too fast, in fact doing so will only increase your clubhead speed. Of course there are other things that need to happen, but keeping the upper arms and shoulders flexible and practicing a lot will help one make the "connection".

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I think part of this is really just the imprecise nature of trying to describe the feeling of athletic movements with language. For some they say they need to feel they start with the hips, but that doesn't even mean the same thing for everyone. For some, starting with the hips might just mean the zipper away/re-centering movement that is at the heart of all good golf swings. Others who have ingrained that motion don't need to feel that as a specific movement, it just happens, and they likely say they need to start with the arms. 

 

The main factor then is that since it is so individual that you come to understand the main components of the swing, understand what you do naturally, and what you need to feel as a conscious effort to get the right sequencing. And that is why the golf swing is so hard, because everyone feels and describes things very differently, and why good coaches who understand that are worth their weight in gold. 

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20 hours ago, iSwing said:

Really depends on what's being done for the shot attempt, and turning together doesn't necessarily mean at the same speed. 

In general, however, taking the stomach out of the downswing,  or shot,  with delaying same and by speeding up the arms works together. 

 

The Justin Rose video is exactly what my instructor was saying.

 

16 hours ago, Zitlow said:

People will be hunting and pecking the rest of their lives and never improve. 

 

This is a great truth.  

Applies to most things of skill.

 

14 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

There is ONE rule in golf instruction that dominates over all others

”If it works keep on doing it , no matter what anyone tells you .”

 

There is truth to this.

Everyone is different.

Look at 10 PGA pros, and you will probably not see 10 identical swings.

Just similar fundamentals.

 

2 hours ago, iSwing said:

What swing movement is in style today and how it's measured is one thing, and how things may, or may not, have been sequenced in the past without being subjected to computer analysis is another, but listening to past masters of the game from its earliest beginnings through the persimmon era is priceless information, and they were actually good  players doing what they do.  

 

He said arms start the swing based on modern high speed video analysis.

He is a young modern pro in his 20s with tour experience.

He only mentioned Hogan regarding foot placement, not the swing.

 

 

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The arms are not initiating the downswing, but it has to feel like they are. The entire downswing happens in 0.2 of a second. The arms of nearly all ams work far too slow, so feeling like you speed them up slows the body rotation from the top, stops them spinning out and gets the arms into the slot to hit effectively. 

 

Yes, he said my arms are too slow.  

He told me to try to hit the next ball as far as I can.

The result was speeding up my arms.

 

1 hour ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

Each person is different and needs different instruction.  That's why most instructors fail from my experiences, they try to force you into one model.  It doesn't work.  

 

There is some truth to this.

Even at pro level, in any sport, techniques vary.

 

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3 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Sequencing is real but reality is many people including myself do not accelerate the hands fast enough or soon enough. I work on this a lot, and when it's right it's a massive change and it's all positive. Getting hands back in front of torso without stalling out rotation is easier said than done. Proper hip clearance where their depth is maintained and tush line stays away from ball line is a huge key in it working.

I think the underlying reason why most people have a torso that stalls is because they are moving their lead hand towards the ball from the top which leaves the clubface wide open.  The result is that the player has to stand the handle up at impact and roll the club face to find the ball and the body has to stall to accommodate this.  In order for body rotation to work in the swing, the club face, shaft, hands, have to be in a position to accommodate.  You watch a golf swing and it looks like it is an around the body game and it is to an extent, but I think most amateurs try to move the club too much in the horizontal plane with their arms vs the pros who move the club more in the vertical plane with their arms and use their pivot to provide the horizontal motion.  So...feeling like you start the downswing with your arms is a feeling that will work for some people, but, for your body to react by maintaining rotation, the arms have to move correctly, (hint....if you want to rotate, your arms need to move down first).

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3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Every good swing requires the club to enter the hitting zone from the same place. You can get upset if you don't want to hear that but it is an indisputable fact. How you feel that may be personal, but it's never going to change that it's true. 

 

3 hours ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

 

Dean I've taken lessons from some of the best in the Jax area, I speak from THEIR experiences and I am going to another fantastic instructor tomorrow at 11 am.   I'll follow up once I get confirmation once again.  

 

Besides you are moving the field goals.  You mentioned feels.....    Feels mean different things to different people, it's not quantitative at ALL.  

 

Some of the best instructors in Jax and now a different one (again) ?

 

Do they all teach you the same way ? The same things ? How can you really learn something from all different teachers unless they're all teaching the same way/things ?

 

 

And the expression is "moving the goal posts".

 

And he's NOT doing that. You're saying the same thing HE already said ("How you feel that may be personal"). That's likely why he suggested "you have a nice day". :classic_wink:

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2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Some of the best instructors in Jax and now a different one (again) ?

 

Do they all teach you the same way ? The same things ? How can you really learn something from all different teachers unless they're all teaching the same way/things ?

 

 

And the expression is "moving the goal posts".

 

And he's NOT doing that. You're saying the same thing HE already said ("How you feel that may be personal"). That's likely why he suggested "you have a nice day". :classic_wink:

It's cool. He apologised in PM. No harm done - we're all passionate about this stupid game. 🙂

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2 hours ago, iSwing said:

 

On the contrary, these type discussions and questions have been around and brought forth by those professionals you claim is pointless to listen to, literally. 

 

There was a reason Mr. Hogan wanted to feel one corporate hand on the club when all measuring devices would say there are obviously 2 hands in play.    It has to do with duality and application, or extinguishing same,  and  past greats were all over it, and there is no measuring device that can pick it up as far as I know.  

 

Is there a device which measures golf resistance? 

 

 

 

What do you mean by that?

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23 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Some of the best instructors in Jax and now a different one (again) ?

 

Do they all teach you the same way ? The same things ? How can you really learn something from all different teachers unless they're all teaching the same way/things ?

 

 

And the expression is "moving the goal posts".

 

And he's NOT doing that. You're saying the same thing HE already said ("How you feel that may be personal"). That's likely why he suggested "you have a nice day". :classic_wink:

 

Thanks for chiming in and adding all that value, appreciate it.  

 

Speaking of which I love the cute color scheme you have for your golf set.  ☺️

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2 hours ago, iSwing said:

 

On the contrary, these type discussions and questions have been around and brought forth by those professionals you claim is pointless to listen to, literally. 

 

There was a reason Mr. Hogan wanted to feel one corporate hand on the club when all measuring devices would say there are obviously 2 hands in play.    It has to do with duality and application, or extinguishing same,  and  past greats were all over it, and there is no measuring device that can pick it up as far as I know.  

 

Is there a device which measures golf resistance? 

 

 

🤦🏻‍♂️

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1 hour ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

 

Thanks for chiming in and adding all that value, appreciate it.  

 

Speaking of which I love the cute color scheme you have for your golf set.  ☺️

 

Thanks. Glad you like the signature. 👍

 

And you're welcome,,,,,,, but at least I DID add a little value.  As opposed to your snarky response.

 

That aside, why not simply answer the questions ? You know, like contributing (more ?) to the thread. Or is that too much to ask ? :classic_blink:

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Best advise in this thread is finding what works for you.  My advise would be to look for the technique that gives you best consistency on the shot.  The way I learned was from Nicklaus, the shift in the lower body is what starts the downswing.  Many times at the start of the season my swing is way, way out of sequence.  Will place a 1/2" pipe under the outside edge of my left foot (right handed), & this usually helps me start to find my swing back with felling the pressure of stepping on the pipe to start the downswing..   I know if I try to start with the arms, it will be a pull shot with at least 10 yards short of the distance I am wanting.  So again, need to find what works for you.....and there are no quick fixes.  It takes time.

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14 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

This is all you need. It's pointless listening to what old pros thought they did or felt they did when we can now measure what good players actually do. 

 

Basically, the downswing takes 0.2 seconds. It always starts from the ground up, but if you try and feel that you'll be out of sequence. That's how people get stuck and never ever improve. 

 

 

 

I have read a lot of your posts and agree with most but that is illogical. Feels and 2d messing people up are 2 things I disagree with 

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15 hours ago, chipa said:

 

From what I can tell there is not way to turn the hips to fast or early if one has a "connected" swing and the right leg is loaded sufficiently, like a baseball batter with his left leg up in the air there is no way he can turn his hips too fast until he puts his left foot down.

 

My advice would be two things - always push the left hand back and away after initially turning the shoulders to start the swing so that the right side loads easily and when you get it right there is no way to turn the hips too early or too fast, in fact doing so will only increase your clubhead speed. Of course there are other things that need to happen, but keeping the upper arms and shoulders flexible and practicing a lot will help one make the "connection".

Not sure what you mean by pushing your left hand back. Is it similar to Byron Nelson’s move with his driver ?

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14 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Im pretty sure i did, I have seen that video and all the AMG stuff and I like it but to say that is all you need is incorrect. Also saying trying to start from the ground up will always get you out of sequence is not correct imho. 

"All you need" was contextual, buddy. 

 

Trying to start the downswing with the hips gets you out of sequence. All good swings start from the ground up, but the vast majority of ams need to forget about their hips because all that does is spins the shoulders out. This is often coupled with a poor understanding of how to build a backswing so their arms are already deep and out of position. This is one of the biggest causes of the huge number of OTT swings. 

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6 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

"All you need" was contextual, buddy. 

 

Trying to start the downswing with the hips gets you out of sequence. All good swings start from the ground up, but the vast majority of ams need to forget about their hips because all that does is spins the shoulders out. This is often coupled with a poor understanding of how to build a backswing so their arms are already deep and out of position. This is one of the biggest causes of the huge number of OTT swings. 

 

I agree but not everyone has OTT swings. I think golf instruction can work in cycles to some extent but there are too many good instructors and players who promote using the ground/hips/pivot for it not to be a valid thought for some. Hell even the dreaded passive arms hands can work for some. It’s the problem with you tube instruction the coach cannot see the viewers swing.

 

As someone stuck in the cycle of searching for a move I’m aware of the lunacy. There is a danger with just concentrating on the arms and wrists.

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22 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The hardest part of the golf swing is finding out that what you need to do to have a good swing is almost the opposite of what you feel like you should do. We feel like we have to take a direct line back to the ball from the top. It's utterly counterintuitive to be told that the club has to essentially be thrown behind and away from us. 

 

This is where the downswing is confusing. You say hands go behind us. Makes sense, lower body leads. Yet some say to speed up the hands?

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8 minutes ago, Tanner25 said:

 

This is where the downswing is confusing. You say hands go behind us. Makes sense, lower body leads. Yet some say to speed up the hands?

 

If you're moving your wrists correctly it'll feel like the club is moving out and away from you from the top. It's totally counterintuitive. 

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OP -

Your guy is correct.  I wish I had listened to that advice when I got it 15 years ago at a clinic w Jim Flick.  Instead I wasted a lot of time trying to have my mind on my body movements and take the hands and arms out of it.  I just never got much better even though I practiced a lot.

 

This guy teaches similar to your instructor.  He's kind of a genius imo.  I switched to this method and immediately saw drastic improvement.

 

Good luck!  👍

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, iSwing said:

 

Another counterintuitive move is doing anything active with the wrists from the top as if that's supposed to speed up the arm(s),  if that's the thought behind it.   I struggle to think of any sport, or hand and stick activity, where activating a set wrist will speed up an arm.   Doesn't appear to me that Mr. Rose is doing anything with his wrist(s) but allowing them to respond to his trail arm and lead shoulder sequencing for the strike.

If I thought for a second that you would listen to me I'd explain, but it's been pretty clear that you have no respect for me, so I won't both. And I will no longer respond to you at all. Thanks.

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8 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Not sure what you mean by pushing your left hand back. Is it similar to Byron Nelson’s move with his driver ?

 

I'm not sure I just know when I'm swinging well I feel my left hand pushing away from my body after the arms have lifted somewhat. I don't know Byron's technique but I can't keep my left arm straight like he did either. My swing looks more like Rocco Mediate's with a firm left hand but the upper arms relaxed and a lot of right hand action through through the ball. I think the upper arms and shoulders being relaxed and a firm grip is an easier technique to follow. It does require a certain amount of understanding of the routing of the club on the way back. If you look at Rocco Mediates preswing move you'll see what I am talking about. This move allows for a good amount of natural weight shift too which generates a lot of easy power. I can swing my 2 wood over 110 mph and I'm only 5'6" and 56 years old with a problematic back. Good luck. 

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On 7/28/2021 at 8:34 AM, sekrah said:

"Bump, Dump, Turn"

 

Don't forget the bump. That's the window for your arms to dump.  Trying to dump your arms before you bump your hips is a massive mistake and where many - including myself - were confused for years.

 

 

 

 

Yes. I think when guys hear "Don't turn your hips too soon," that becomes, "No weight bump at all" and they end up with an all arms move with their weight hanging too much on their trail side and their hips spun open, lots of power loss and inconsistent contact. Indeed, I think the left hip "turning too soon" or spinning out is really because there was no shift of weight to the lead side and something had to give. I had an instructor tell me that when my hips are opening too soon it is because I got quick and basically skipped the transition. 

 

I think a lot of instruction is saying the same thing, but saying it in different ways, and it is all about what connects with the individual.

 

Lots of ways to discuss that weight bump. I believe if you think about a pronounced weight shift too much it won't work, it will feel like you're trying to hard to shift your weight. At least, that's how I am. That kind of thinking moves me off the ball. It has to be a natural movement. It's more subtle than many think. The way of explaining it that worked best for me is from Shawn Clement, but there are many others out there who describe it well. I like the way this vid talks about moving into that front leg "from behind" as the backswing is completed. But it is a pelvic move, not a hip move. Did it slowly with air swings to get it down and got nice results simply by not getting in a hurry and feeling that subtle weight bump. What I noticed is my hips were not as active until later but my pelvis was more active, and there is a difference.

 

Happy to obsess over this anytime. It is the biggest challenge in the golf swing for me, much harder than just hitting the ball. I feel like it's one of the real keys to unlocking your best swings (along with loose shoulder sockets and very loose wrists!)

 

 

 

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I don't think anyone who thinks about what to do with the body on the downswing will ever reach their max potential clubhead speed consistently. The reality is among pros there is a wide variety of leg and hip action through the ball, some have the hips wide open and others much more closed.

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3 hours ago, liquorandpoker said:

OP -

Your guy is correct.  I wish I had listened to that advice when I got it 15 years ago at a clinic w Jim Flick.  Instead I wasted a lot of time trying to have my mind on my body movements and take the hands and arms out of it.  I just never got much better even though I practiced a lot.

 

This guy teaches similar to your instructor.  He's kind of a genius imo.  I switched to this method and immediately saw drastic improvement.

 

Good luck!  👍

 

 

 

 

And I believe he is a mentor to Milo Lines who very much believes in using your body. The commonality between them is - where they teach, they both can play very well and they teach others  how to improve. They just go about it in different ways. You need both arm and body motions working together as opposed to Ignoring one and hoping it will magically fall into,place.

 

If you start with one or the other or do both at the same time is where coaches seem to differ. 

 

Coaches use a usp to get people in but soon add other things because frankly a single move will not do much good.

 

Malaska started with his steering wheel and Lines with opening of the hips and core. Later on Malaska showed people how they should pivot and create space and Lines showed arm structure if they don’t naturally work as he wants. 

 

The only problem is if you watched the early videos Mike’s hands in club out without the pivot would make you give up on it and the same applies to Lines rotation because your arms/hands could naturally work out far too much.

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      Gary Woodland's new Cameron putter - 2021 CJ Cup @ The Summit Club
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      • 6 replies
    • 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open WITB Photos- Discussion & Links
      Please put any questions or comments here...
       
      Links:
       
      Harry Higgs - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Ian Poulter - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
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