What's the penalty?

[jobin]

In a match play game, order of play is paramount.  If player B goes out of turn and player A cancels that stroke, what is the penalty if B rejects that cancellation (mostly through ignorance) and continues on with same ball?

 

With no other knowledge, i would say that B loses hole if he makes another stroke at ball. If B rejects 'loss of hole', then B is DQ.  

 

But i find nothing in Rule Book to confirm this notion.

[Augster]

He can’t be DQ. He can only lose the hole. 
 

6.4a2 gives a player the right to cancel an opponents “stroke made out of turn”. Once cancelled, the opponent MUST play from previous spot. 
 

The rule then points us to 14.6 and the procedure on how to do that. 
 

If the opponent refuses to replay from the previous place and continues with the ball he hit out of turn, he breaches 14.6, playing from wrong place. The penalty for that is the general penalty, which is loss of hole in match play. 
 

Further, when the idiot continues play and refuses the loss of hole penalty, at the end of the hole you tell him you’re claiming the hole and making a claim. If a committee member is handy, you get a ruling right then. Or if they aren’t, you state you’re making a claim on that hole, leave it undecided in the match (though you know you’ll win the claim), then play the match the rest of the way and see if the result of that hole matters in the end. If it does, you find a committee member, pro, anyone with the authority to approve your claim. Then go play extra holes or take the win. 
 

The claim doesn’t matter if you’re 2-down after 18. Nor does it matter if you’re 2-up. 
 

It’s good to have the cell phone number of a committee member to text or call during the match, or after it. In case the match is close. 
 

As an add-on to this lengthy response, anyone that doesn’t “accept” a recalled shot is a complete mental case and giant tool. If he’s a member of your club, I would make a motion to have him removed. Who needs this kind of disrespect for the game? Good riddance. 

[sekrah]

I don't do any match play, how do you guys settle debates if it's close?  Say you're both 30 yards from the pin and it's inches difference and you keep insisting the other to hit?

 

 

[davep043]

17 minutes ago, sekrah said:

I don't do any match play, how do you guys settle debates if it's close?  Say you're both 30 yards from the pin and it's inches difference and you keep insisting the other to hit?

There's no penalty for playing out of turn in stroke play, so if you go in the "wrong" order there's no penalty repercussions.  If that happens to me, I'm always happy to play first, mostly because I generally prefer not to wait for other players.  

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by davep043

[sekrah]

1 minute ago, davep043 said:

There's no penalty for playing out of turn in stroke play, so if you go in the "wrong" order there's no penalty repercussions.  If that happens to me, I'm always happy to play first, mostly because I generally prefer not to wait for other players.  

 

Yea I know that.. I'm asking about Match Play.

 

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, sekrah said:

 

Yea I know that.. I'm asking about Match Play.

 

Oh, sorry.  You could use a laser to get a distance to the pin, but you're asking about differences of inches, not yards.  If its really close, I'd probably ask someone outside of the match to help us decide.  In a real formal competition, that might be an official or referee, in a more casual setting it might be someone else in the group.  I can't say I've ever seen a situation where both players would insist that the other play first, usually one of them would choose to go ahead.  That would be my choice, I'd want to hit a good first shot to put additional pressure on my opponent.  

 

[sekrah]

Okay, maybe in this scenario they would be both fighting to go first.   Rock Paper Scissors?

 

[rogolf]

If a referee is present and cannot clearly determine who is away, the referee will toss a coin to decide.  The coin toss will decide who plays first - the referee will assign heads to one player, tails to the other.  If the coin comes up heads, that player must play first.

[Ty_Webb]

3 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Oh, sorry.  You could use a laser to get a distance to the pin, but you're asking about differences of inches, not yards.  If its really close, I'd probably ask someone outside of the match to help us decide.  In a real formal competition, that might be an official or referee, in a more casual setting it might be someone else in the group.  I can't say I've ever seen a situation where both players would insist that the other play first, usually one of them would choose to go ahead.  That would be my choice, I'd want to hit a good first shot to put additional pressure on my opponent.  

 

When I've been in this situation, I've always suggested we flip a coin to decide. If it's too close to call, that's a fair way to decide it. Never experienced anyone refusing that.

 

Incidentally, what I do to decide whose go it is is stand right in between the two balls at the centre and face perpendicular to that line on the flag side. Whichever side of the flag I'm facing in is the side that's away. If the balls are opposite sides of the flag so that won't work, then I'd look from the hole towards each ball and see which one looks smaller. If all that doesn't work, then coinflip.

[Newby]

51 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Incidentally, what I do to decide whose go it is is stand right in between the two balls at the centre and face perpendicular to that line on the flag side. Whichever side of the flag I'm facing in is the side that's away. If the balls are opposite sides of the flag so that won't work, then I'd look from the hole towards each ball and see which one looks smaller. If all that doesn't work, then coinflip.

I think this is it. Stand equidistant between the balls (re & blue). Extend arms to point at balls (line AB). Face straight forward - not at flag (line CD). If flag is left of line, left ball is nearest. If flag is right of line, right ball is nearest.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Newby

[lchang]

I remember watching my opponent’s ball roll up from a chip shot and hit my ball on the green. My ball rolled away a bit, and his ball, as far as I could tell, replaced my ball’s original position exactly.  We flipped a coin. (But we did it wrong—we let the winner of the flip decide whether to play first or last instead of designating beforehand the winner of the flip to go first.)

[Augster]

It’s a coin flip. Don’t overcomplicate it. 

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, Augster said:

It’s a coin flip. Don’t overcomplicate it. 

But, it's usual that the "winner" of the flip goes first, ie, is not given a choice.

[Strategery]

12 hours ago, davep043 said:

There's no penalty for playing out of turn in stroke play, so if you go in the "wrong" order there's no penalty repercussions.

 

See the 1947 US Open where Sam Snead lost to Lew Worsham. Snead was totally shafted! He knew the stroke play rules and tried to finish out a putt on #18 but Worsham called for a measurement to determine who was further away. Snead got rattled, missed the putt, and ultimately lost. Totally bogus. Note: The US Open was the only major Snead never won.

 

 

[antip]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

But, it's usual that the "winner" of the flip goes first, ie, is not given a choice.

Yes. If players cannot agree (they are permitted to do so) then a random method is to be used - that precludes having a winner of a random method choose - reference is rule 6.4.

[Colin L]

if assigned to a match, the chances are I'll be asked to decide on who's away a couple of times but only ever on or close to the green.  Occasionally, I have had to pace out distances but my tape measure has never been out my bag.

 

Nowadays, further from the green they are using DMDs which is quick and uncontentious.

[sui generis]

I've used this exactly once in the past fifteen years:

[Imp]

22 hours ago, davep043 said:

Oh, sorry.  You could use a laser to get a distance to the pin, but you're asking about differences of inches, not yards.  If its really close, I'd probably ask someone outside of the match to help us decide.  In a real formal competition, that might be an official or referee, in a more casual setting it might be someone else in the group.  I can't say I've ever seen a situation where both players would insist that the other play first, usually one of them would choose to go ahead.  That would be my choice, I'd want to hit a good first shot to put additional pressure on my opponent.  

 

I play with someone that wants to always go second, "if you're ready" because a) he's never ready and b) wants to see the wind condition and effect on the ball. But I'm like you, I want to force him to make a good shot because of how well I hit mine.

But, there are times that I will play the "that's OK, I'll wait" and see if I can rush him through his routine as the group behind catches up.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Imp

[MountainKing]

On 7/28/2021 at 7:23 AM, sekrah said:

I don't do any match play, how do you guys settle debates if it's close?  Say you're both 30 yards from the pin and it's inches difference and you keep insisting the other to hit?

 

 

 

I ask the guy if he wants to go first or wants me to go first, then just roll with that. Makes no difference to me what order I hit in.   Life is too short to be wasting time over this type of nonsense. 

[sekrah]

3 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

I ask the guy if he wants to go first or wants me to go first, then just roll with that. Makes no difference to me what order I hit in.   Life is too short to be wasting time over this type of nonsense. 

Personally, I agree, I wish I could said I didn't believe two guys would need tournament officials to settle such a thing, but that's the world we live in.

[MountainKing]

1 hour ago, sekrah said:

Personally, I agree, I wish I could said I didn't believe two guys would need tournament officials to settle such a thing, but that's the world we live in.

 

It makes ya wonder how they get by in other aspects of life.   

[Augster]

4 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

I ask the guy if he wants to go first or wants me to go first, then just roll with that. Makes no difference to me what order I hit in.   Life is too short to be wasting time over this type of nonsense. 

This all day. 
 

“You first or me first?” It’s simple and honorable. 

[lchang]

On 7/28/2021 at 3:53 PM, lchang said:

I remember watching my opponent’s ball roll up from a chip shot and hit my ball on the green. My ball rolled away a bit, and his ball, as far as I could tell, replaced my ball’s original position exactly.  We flipped a coin. (But we did it wrong—we let the winner of the flip decide whether to play first or last instead of designating beforehand the winner of the flip to go first.)

1 hour ago, Augster said:

This all day. 
 

“You first or me first?” It’s simple and honorable. 

 

Agree.  The one time in my life when I didn't do this was in my example above:  we were putting (for some $) from the exact same spot--about an 8 footer, I think.  So going last is a pretty big advantage.

 

 

[lchang]

10 hours ago, Madagascar said:

 

Then flip a coin.

 

Uh......  We did:  

 

On 7/28/2021 at 3:53 PM, lchang said:

I remember watching my opponent’s ball roll up from a chip shot and hit my ball on the green. My ball rolled away a bit, and his ball, as far as I could tell, replaced my ball’s original position exactly.  We flipped a coin. (But we did it wrong—we let the winner of the flip decide whether to play first or last instead of designating beforehand the winner of the flip to go first.)

 

[jobin]

Some mis-understandings here by folks perhaps who never play Match golf.  The number of strokes is of no consequence; win the hole is all.

 

Dave, above, says that he v dislikes slow play and many agree with him.  So, in stroke play, those guys who race on from tee to cup, with their 'Ready Golf' not caring about the other fellows, not helping search for balls, who may tee off on hole 3 even if hole 2 not finished by others, are kept in line, during match play, by Rule 6.4a.

 

Don't forget that the ball closest to the hole usually has the advantage. That's why long drives are so welcome.  Usually, of course.  On the day in question, on the par 3 hole, Bob hit his 8i into the greenside bunker and he rushed up and hit a great explosion shot to next to the cup.  But my ball was well short and hidden in some high grass.  I was certainly 'away', no question.  But it took me some time to find my ball and i watched in dismay as Bob played his bunker shot. Bob played out of turn.  I recalled his shot, then i played.  He objected loudly but dropped into the bunker and played again. I won that hole by following the rules of golf.  If you don't follow the rules and lose the hole, you are an a**.

[lchang]

2 hours ago, jobin said:

Some mis-understandings here by folks perhaps who never play Match golf.  The number of strokes is of no consequence; win the hole is all.

 

Dave, above, says that he v dislikes slow play and many agree with him.  So, in stroke play, those guys who race on from tee to cup, with their 'Ready Golf' not caring about the other fellows, not helping search for balls, who may tee off on hole 3 even if hole 2 not finished by others, are kept in line, during match play, by Rule 6.4a.

 

Don't forget that the ball closest to the hole usually has the advantage. That's why long drives are so welcome.  Usually, of course.  On the day in question, on the par 3 hole, Bob hit his 8i into the greenside bunker and he rushed up and hit a great explosion shot to next to the cup.  But my ball was well short and hidden in some high grass.  I was certainly 'away', no question.  But it took me some time to find my ball and i watched in dismay as Bob played his bunker shot. Bob played out of turn.  I recalled his shot, then i played.  He objected loudly but dropped into the bunker and played again. I won that hole by following the rules of golf.  If you don't follow the rules and lose the hole, you are an a**.

Recalling his shot is of course your option. But I don’t think I would have recalled his shot in any situation:  for money with my buds. Or in a club tourney, etc.  
 

(I assume in your story, you’re calling Bob an a**?  Or would you be calling me an a** for not recalling my opponents shot?)

[Imp]

7 hours ago, lchang said:

Recalling his shot is of course your option. But I don’t think I would have recalled his shot in any situation:  for money with my buds. Or in a club tourney, etc.  
 

(I assume in your story, you’re calling Bob an a**?  Or would you be calling me an a** for not recalling my opponents shot?)

I think you're looking for a fight. Don't. 

The rules are in place for a reason. to be used and followed. The rule mentioned is not a requirement, but an option to be implemented by the player *should they wish to invoke it*. While playing someone else, should they wish to invoke it if and/or when you play out of turn in a match, that's their right to do so. And if it is invoked on you, be like Bob. "But I wouldn't do it to you, why would you do such a thing" is not on the table for discussion. 

[lchang]

3 minutes ago, Imp said:

I think you're looking for a fight. Don't. 

The rules are in place for a reason. to be used and followed. The rule mentioned is not a requirement, but an option to be implemented by the player *should they wish to invoke it*. While playing someone else, should they wish to invoke it if and/or when you play out of turn in a match, that's their right to do so. And if it is invoked on you, be like Bob. "But I wouldn't do it to you, why would you do such a thing" is not on the table for discussion. 

 I wasn’t looking for a fight. (And I’m certainly not the one who started with the use of  “a***”.). Just stating my personal preference in these situations. Which is quite appropriate for these forums, right? 

[Isaac_Newton]

11 hours ago, jobin said:

Some mis-understandings here by folks perhaps who never play Match golf.  The number of strokes is of no consequence; win the hole is all.

 

Dave, above, says that he v dislikes slow play and many agree with him.  So, in stroke play, those guys who race on from tee to cup, with their 'Ready Golf' not caring about the other fellows, not helping search for balls, who may tee off on hole 3 even if hole 2 not finished by others, are kept in line, during match play, by Rule 6.4a.

 

Don't forget that the ball closest to the hole usually has the advantage. That's why long drives are so welcome.  Usually, of course.  On the day in question, on the par 3 hole, Bob hit his 8i into the greenside bunker and he rushed up and hit a great explosion shot to next to the cup.  But my ball was well short and hidden in some high grass.  I was certainly 'away', no question.  But it took me some time to find my ball and i watched in dismay as Bob played his bunker shot. Bob played out of turn.  I recalled his shot, then i played.  He objected loudly but dropped into the bunker and played again. I won that hole by following the rules of golf.  If you don't follow the rules and lose the hole, you are an a**.

The situation you describe is, in my opinion, the reason this rule exists. Your opponent didn't help look for your ball and played his shot without any regard for his playing opponent. I likely would have done the same depending on the event. 

 

However, I think application of this rule should be exceedingly rare. Looking back at the 2000 Solheim Cup, Annika Sorenstam's replayed shot was just poor sportsmanship by the American captain.

[Augster]

If a player plays out of turn in match play, without asking permission, they should expect to have to recall the shot. And when their opponent doesn’t make them recall the shot, they should be relieved. 
 

No grumbling. No whining. No crying.
 

It’s a RULE. The player broke a rule and got called on it to rehit. Just play by the rules. If you want to hit out of order, just ask. It’s pretty simple. 
 

I have no idea how making a player who played out of turn in match play recall their shot can be called “poor sportsmanship”. THEY broke the rule and are getting what they deserve. Victim shaming at its best.