Something more forgiving than Cobra CBs

[Z1ggy16]

Ball striking suffering due to lack of play and practice. Still want a compact look with minimal offset, but maybe just a touch of extra help on the slightly thin miss. I also miss on the toe often but I really don't think any iron is going to do much out there. Fairly shallow AoA so v-sole doesn't seem to make sense.

 

Short list is p770 and Apex Pro. Anything else I should look at? 

[Valtiel]

Shallower AoA with a thin miss screams going lower CG and higher MOI for a nice one/two punch. Assuming we're talking about the black Cobra King Forged CB, they are actually quite blade like in terms of spec. MOI, C-Dimension, and CG are all in line with most blades, so there is a lot of potential improvement to be made in the forgiveness category. 

From a spec standpoint I would rule out the P770 right away since it has the same low MOI as the Cobra and a higher CG, two things working away from what you're trying to improve upon. The design itself might help with ballspeed on those mishits a bit, but I feel like you can do a lot better. Similar deal with the Apex Pro, and the Apex DCB would be better on paper all the way around. 

When it comes to high (sometimes VERY high) MOI in a player's package, Titleist really rules the roost there. Bonus points for a slightly more toe side CG as well on average. Any of the AP2's or T100's should be considered. Big $$$ savings if you're willing to go older as well with something like the 714 AP2 which on paper would still be a noticeable "upgrade" in terms of relevant specs from the Cobra CB. 

The Mizuno JPX line should also be considered for similar reasons as the Titleist's, with even more toe forgiveness thanks to the design. The 919 Forged specifically could be a big winner there. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Valtiel

[Z1ggy16]

11 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Shallower AoA with a thin miss screams going lower CG and higher MOI for a nice one/two punch. Assuming we're talking about the black Cobra King Forged CB, they are actually quite blade like in terms of spec. MOI, C-Dimension, and CG are all in line with most blades, so there is a lot of potential improvement to be made in the forgiveness category. 

From a spec standpoint I would rule out the P770 right away since it has the same low MOI as the Cobra and a higher CG, two things working away from what you're trying to improve upon. The design itself might help with ballspeed on those mishits a bit, but I feel like you can do a lot better. Similar deal with the Apex Pro, and the Apex DCB would be better on paper all the way around. 

When it comes to high (sometimes VERY high) MOI in a player's package, Titleist really rules the roost there. Bonus points for a slightly more toe side CG as well on average. Any of the AP2's or T100's should be considered. Big $$$ savings if you're willing to go older as well with something like the 714 AP2 which on paper would still be a noticeable "upgrade" in terms of relevant specs from the Cobra CB. 

The Mizuno JPX line should also be considered for similar reasons as the Titleist's, with even more toe forgiveness thanks to the design. The 919 Forged specifically could be a big winner there.

Yup, the black ones is exactly right. I love the feel and the flight when struck well but because I'm fairly shallow, any time I come out of my swing a bit early, I'm hitting it quite low on the face and I lose a lot.

 

Appreciate the feedback, heres my comments/questions: of what you suggested, which has the thinnest sole design? 

 

Also in the jpx forged, I worry the stronger lofts will cause issue, so I'd want to weaken. Happen to know bounce on those? 

 

Lastly not sure if your have experience with all of those, but which will feel the softest? 

[liveagua]

2 hours ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Ball striking suffering due to lack of play and practice. Still want a compact look with minimal offset, but maybe just a touch of extra help on the slightly thin miss. I also miss on the toe often but I really don't think any iron is going to do much out there. Fairly shallow AoA so v-sole doesn't seem to make sense.

 

Short list is p770 and Apex Pro. Anything else I should look at? 

Srixon ZX7. V Sole works for both sweepers and diggers. Honma TR20 V, Titleist T100, Mizuno MMC, Taylormade P770, Miura CB 301...to name a few

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Yup, the black ones is exactly right. I love the feel and the flight when struck well but because I'm fairly shallow, any time I come out of my swing a bit early, I'm hitting it quite low on the face and I lose a lot.

 

Appreciate the feedback, heres my comments/questions: of what you suggested, which has the thinnest sole design? 

 

Also in the jpx forged, I worry the stronger lofts will cause issue, so I'd want to weaken. Happen to know bounce on those? 

 

Lastly not sure if your have experience with all of those, but which will feel the softest? 

JPX 919 specs from MG$:



Regarding soles, I believe the newer Titleists are thinner soled than the older models, but other than that I can not really comment. I have not compared them either so I can't comment on feel. 

[Z1ggy16]

28 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

JPX 919 specs from MG$:



Regarding soles, I believe the newer Titleists are thinner soled than the older models, but other than that I can not really comment. I have not compared them either so I can't comment on feel. 

Thanks for the chart, seems like I could go 1* weak with out any issue. 

 

Regarding the Apex above, you only meant the pro and not the tcb right? Would tcb be like the current cb?

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Thanks for the chart, seems like I could go 1* weak with out any issue. 

 

Regarding the Apex above, you only meant the pro and not the tcb right? Would tcb be like the current cb?

Correct. The TCB actually isn't in the Maltby charts so I am not sure where that one would sit to be honest. Based on the design/shaping it looks like it is likely slightly lower CG than the X-Forged CB, but beyond that I can not say. Based on all the other irons in the line up though there is no way it has an MOI up where the Titleist and JPX irons are. 

[Z1ggy16]

35 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Correct. The TCB actually isn't in the Maltby charts so I am not sure where that one would sit to be honest. Based on the design/shaping it looks like it is likely slightly lower CG than the X-Forged CB, but beyond that I can not say. Based on all the other irons in the line up though there is no way it has an MOI up where the Titleist and JPX irons are. 

Haven't checked those pdf's in a while, I'll have to take a look. I do recall seeing the Forged as pretty high MOI given its pretty compact shape. Not as good looking as the Cobra's but I think I'll have to give up a little bit of the compactness in favor of helping squeeze out an extra few yards on those slightly bad hits. Although t100 when I demo'ed it wasn't too much larger to my eye than the Cobra CB. If they are good enough for Jordan... Good enough for me.

[Valtiel]

Quote

 

I checked out reviews and also the details on the Maltby PF sheets. It seems to be the overall "playability" number is much more influenced by C Dim and VCOG than MOI. Oddly enough the new p770s don't have a vertical CG that's all that much different than AP2/T100 and 919 Forged. My biggest hesitation with going 919's is the larger sole width and stronger lofts. My understanding on C Dim is that it's just how far away the CG is from the hosel? If so, how does the factor take into account things like toe weighting... that's not going to alter blade length but should up the MOI/C dim?

 

I also don't hit many 7i's and longer... unless I'm playing 7000 yards, I find myself mostly with wedges or shorter irons on par 3's. Which one of these clubs would have the best "playability" in the short irons?

 

Quoted from PM's with @Z1ggy16:

The overall playability number can be misleading based on how Maltby weights the different factors that contribute to it. Maltby places a very high "playability" value on C-Dimension, which is indeed the distance of the sweetspot from a consistent point on the heel/hosel. I believe this is based on the idea that a toe side miss is common and therefore a more centered/slightly toe side CG is beneficial for the average player. It is casting a bit of a wide net IMO because someone that lives in the center to slightly heel side will actually be hurt by this, and now the thing that made the playability factor number higher does not apply to you anymore. MOI is valued lower than C-Dim and I think that could (and maybe should) be flipped. Higher MOI makes mishits better everywhere, not just in the place that most people miss, and therefore I think is more beneficial on average. 

In terms of your question about toe weighting and blade length, that is part of the equation yes. You'd increase C-Dimension by either increasing blade length, adding weight via things like Tungsten to the toe, finding ways to reduce weight on the heel side, or a combination of these designs. The JPX line has been leaning most on a cavity design that naturally moves weight away from the heel by extending further into it and having a slightly longer blade length. Titleist uses more traditional looking designs for its players irons with Tungsten doing most of the weight shifting. 

You're likely going to fight the desire for less sole if you're also trying to get CG down and MOI up. A thinner sole is inherently lighter since there is less material, and this will start to naturally move the CG up as the weight is allocated elsewhere in the head. This is where Titleist's niche is since the use of Tungsten allows for more traditional/thinner soles while still keeping a lot of weight down. 

Short iron playability is too subjective to comment on IMO. That will all factor in to what you need/prefer, and if sole width is a big concern for you then i'd imagine the short iron with your preferred width is likely to be the most playable.  

Edited August 4, 2021 by Valtiel

[Z1ggy16]

35 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Quoted from PM's with @Z1ggy16:

The overall playability number can be misleading based on how Maltby weights the different factors that contribute to it. Maltby places a very high "playability" value on C-Dimension, which is indeed the distance of the sweetspot from a consistent point on the heel/hosel. I believe this is based on the idea that a toe side miss is common and therefore a more centered/slightly toe side CG is beneficial for the average player. It is casting a bit of a wide net IMO because someone that lives in the center to slightly heel side will actually be hurt by this, and now the thing that made the playability factor number higher does not apply to you anymore. MOI is valued lower than C-Dim and I think that could (and maybe should) be flipped. Higher MOI makes mishits better everywhere, not just in the place that most people miss, and therefore I think is more beneficial on average. 

In terms of your question about toe weighting and blade length, that is part of the equation yes. You'd increase C-Dimension by either increasing blade length, adding weight via things like Tungsten to the toe, finding ways to reduce weight on the heel side, or a combination of these designs. The JPX line has been leaning most on a cavity design that naturally moves weight away from the heel by extending further into it and having a slightly longer blade length. Titleist uses more traditional looking designs for its players irons with Tungsten doing most of the weight shifting. 

You're likely going to fight the desire for less sole if you're also trying to get CG down and MOI up. A thinner sole is inherently lighter since there is less material, and this will start to naturally move the CG up as the weight is allocated elsewhere in the head. This is where Titleist's niche is since the use of Tungsten allows for more traditional/thinner soles while still keeping a lot of weight down. 

Short iron playability is too subjective to comment on IMO. That will all factor in to what you need/prefer, and if sole width is a big concern for you then i'd imagine the short iron with your preferred width is likely to be the most playable.  

yeah it's a bit tough for me, because I'm probably extraordinary long relative to my average score, and still also pretty long relative to my handicap, and so all this tech and whatnot seems to apply mostly to mid or long irons doesn't apply to me that often. p770 speedfoam for example... I think it stops after 7i, which like I said, is a club I might hit 2 times a round vs a 9i or PW that I might hit 7-8 times a round combined. Does AP2/T100 have the tungsten in the toe/heel in ALL clubs, or just mid and long? One advantage to the 919F is I do probably get higher MOI and C Dim through the entire set since those higher values are more a function of physical dimensions rather than special weight placement which might not be possible in smaller iron heads.

 

Still, I've seen the effects of poor turf interaction so I know how crucial getting that right for your swing is. I might try and iron fitting relatively soon, bring my Cobra's plus a demo 919F and see how the new T100's stack up, and maybe Apex Pro/770's if I feel the hollow thing is beneficial.