2021 Golf Ball Test

[philsRHman]

53 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:

In relation to the previous test, we see several differences-

 

The distance values are greater.

The lower compression balls are closer in overall performance.

The Kirkland ball appears to be a more significant outlier in terms of spin.

 

The reason is this -

 

 

 

They’re using a (very) negative attack angle in the iron test. It produces a lower/longer/higher spin ball flight, particularly with scoring clubs.

 

While this is a “better” swing that mimics a professional mechanic, it absolutely is not what the vast majority of amateur players, particularly older ones, are producing. This population needs more spin, not less.

 

It’s no secret that Kirkland is hated, and now feared within the industry. That a ball test results in a very negative portrayal of their performance should be viewed with caution IMO. The effect, I believe, is that the players who are most likely to spend more on equipment will be most influenced. We can see that in the Kirkland thread on this site, which has gone from staunch support to pretty much writing off the current model entirely.

 

Wouldn't an adjustment for AoA only increase the spin for the Kirkland, along with all the rest? Or is the assumption they would all look more within range if the AoA was closer to a typical amateur's swing?

[Obee]

14 minutes ago, gioreeko said:

wondering why you would do that? You're losing a lot of distance by adding too much spin. The data is all relative, regardless of the angle of attack. A ball that spins more than another ball is going to spin more than that ball with a negative AOA. 

 

A few things:

 

1) I "do that" because that's my golf swing. Always has been, always will be. I tweak here and there, but the end result is always that I'm steeper than most scratch/below players of my age.

 

2) I'd like to see if the softer balls make up the distance lost a bit more when a golfer is more "pinchy" with their driver swing.

[gioreeko]

2 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

A few things:

 

1) I "do that" because that's my golf swing. Always has been, always will be. I tweak here and there, but the end result is always that I'm steeper than most scratch/below players of my age.

 

2) I'd like to see if the softer balls make up the distance lost a bit more when a golfer is more "pinchy" with their driver swing.

just do what I do when testing balls, when it's not too crowded, hit a few of each and see how they perform. I do that all the time with balls and clubs, usually later in the day is perfect. 

[Obee]

Just now, gioreeko said:

just do what I do when testing balls, when it's not too crowded, hit a few of each and see how they perform. I do that all the time with balls and clubs, usually later in the day is perfect. 

 

When I was younger, that was no problem. Just can't do it now -- don't have that many swings in me. Back and hips are destroyed.

[arbeck]

3 hours ago, gioreeko said:

just do what I do when testing balls, when it's not too crowded, hit a few of each and see how they perform. I do that all the time with balls and clubs, usually later in the day is perfect. 

Unless you are testing two outlier balls (say the Kirkland vs Taylormade Tour Response), you're very unlikely to get an accurate picture this way. If you look at a club reviewer with a very repeatable golf swing (someone like Crossfield), you'll easily see 300-400 RPM of spin as a standard deviation between 10+ shots. The difference in spin with a robot between the V1x and the -V1x is 400RPM off an 8i at the 100MPH swing speed. The difference between the Kirkland and the AVX is 400RPM. Unless you are a pristine ball striker, it's going to be very hard to draw many conclusions from an on course test.

 

If you are on the meaty end of the bell curve, I'm not sure it makes a ton of difference which ball you play as long as it's one of the ones that's also in the meaty end of the bell curve. Two balls on the opposite end of meaty part of the bell curve are going to be the Chromesoft X and -V1x. For a mid speed player, you're still talking spin differences that would be well within the standard deviation of your shots with the same ball. The same thing for driver distance or 8i spin. Maybe for the guy who just can't stop spinning the ball the -V1x will be a little better. And maybe for the guy who needs all the spin he can get the Chromesoft X would be better. But for most of us, either would generally work. 

[dcmidnight]

11 hours ago, arbeck said:

Unless you are a pristine ball striker, it's going to be very hard to draw many conclusions from an on course test.

 

Don't know that I agree with this necessarily. I've been testing the left dash V1x for the last two rounds on the course. Its my home course, I've played hundreds of rounds there. Its pretty easy for me to see after enough time that its longer off the driver for me. On good strikes, I'm in a couple places I haven't been in the 8 years I've been there. On one hole, I've hit two bad drives and still cleared a particular bunker that I know for a fact I cant clear on that same wipey miss.

 

And it definitely spins less for me around the greens - which I love - but its easy to tell.

 

Now none of this is quantitative. I cant tell you its 4.2 yards longer with the driver or I'm getting 850 fewer RPMs on chip shots. But over the years I've played enough here that I think you can tell certain things.

 

 

[dcmidnight]

16 hours ago, Obee said:

 

A few things:

 

1) I "do that" because that's my golf swing. Always has been, always will be. I tweak here and there, but the end result is always that I'm steeper than most scratch/below players of my age.

 

Funny story, I spent years trying to "hit up" with my driver because "that's what they tell you to do". When I finally got so bad off the tee my coach and I worked to getting my driver swing back to where it was/is. She said "look, you are right around -0.5* with your driver, we literally kill ourselves trying to get people to where you are, please stop."

[NRJyzr]

18 hours ago, Obee said:

 

When I was younger, that was no problem. Just can't do it now -- don't have that many swings in me. Back and hips are destroyed.

 

I played 81 holes, five consecutive days from Thursday to Monday, and my left leg was singing until this morning.  I've only got a bit of sciatica.  I can only imagine...  ☹

 

[Bad9]

2 hours ago, dcmidnight said:

 

Don't know that I agree with this necessarily. I've been testing the left dash V1x for the last two rounds on the course. Its my home course, I've played hundreds of rounds there. Its pretty easy for me to see after enough time that its longer off the driver for me. On good strikes, I'm in a couple places I haven't been in the 8 years I've been there. On one hole, I've hit two bad drives and still cleared a particular bunker that I know for a fact I cant clear on that same wipey miss.

 

And it definitely spins less for me around the greens - which I love - but its easy to tell.

 

Now none of this is quantitative. I cant tell you its 4.2 yards longer with the driver or I'm getting 850 fewer RPMs on chip shots. But over the years I've played enough here that I think you can tell certain things.

 

 

I think testing on a course you know well is the only legitimate way to make a final choice on something like a ball. I might use the MGS or other test data to select likely candidates but the only way to know if it is the ball for you is to play it on the course, over several rounds, to see if it does what you want it to in playing conditions. We play golf outdoors on a golf course, one shot at a time not on a launch monitor.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Bad9

[wantacigar]

My three main gamers are the 2019 TP5, Tour Response and Kirkland V2.  I honestly do not see any distance variations between the balls with any similar strikes.  Maybe I'm the outlier.  To be honest I choose the same club for the same distance no matter which ball.  I could get 10 yard variations in strikes with my mid iron depending on the strike.  more if I fat it or thin it.  I'm a 16hcp.  My main focus is contact, alignment and accuracy.  To be completely honest, I didn't even see any problems with the Kirkland V1 with the limited time I did play that ball.  When I play a PV1, I love the ball.  When I play the TP5, I love that ball.  When I play the KSig 3.2, I love that ball.  For me, the test means nothing.  I play a ball.  If I like the feel and performance it gives me, I play it.  I've played with guys that out drove me by 20-40 yards but ended up beating them so a perceived 4-8 yard deviation means nothing.  But that's me and my $.02 for what it's worth.  To be honest, out of the millions of golfers out there, how many actually know there's a golf ball test?  We are the "crazy nuts" out there that read everything golf.  LOL.  

[arbeck]

4 hours ago, dcmidnight said:

 

Don't know that I agree with this necessarily. I've been testing the left dash V1x for the last two rounds on the course. Its my home course, I've played hundreds of rounds there. Its pretty easy for me to see after enough time that its longer off the driver for me. On good strikes, I'm in a couple places I haven't been in the 8 years I've been there. On one hole, I've hit two bad drives and still cleared a particular bunker that I know for a fact I cant clear on that same wipey miss.

 

And it definitely spins less for me around the greens - which I love - but its easy to tell.

 

Now none of this is quantitative. I cant tell you its 4.2 yards longer with the driver or I'm getting 850 fewer RPMs on chip shots. But over the years I've played enough here that I think you can tell certain things.

 

 

 

Humans are exceptionally bad at spotting patterns like this. It could be that one ball is longer. It also could be that you were swinging slightly faster than normal, your strike was perfectly optimal for your delivery, atmospheric conditions helped you eek out some extra carry, and/or you got a really good bounce. The amount of shots you'd need to hit a confidence level of 95% is quite large.

 

About the only on course test I'd feel confident recommending with a ball is a short game test. And that's less an on course test that a practice area test. The short game test is much easier to hit a large number of shots. And most importantly, you can generally observe the entire flight of the ball. You can see it land, and check. Even then, I'd be wanting to spend a few hours hitting probably hundreds of shots.

 

For full swing stuff though, this is really hard. On the PGA tour, for a 150 yard shot, the dispersion is going to average about 30'. If we say you are really good and your average dispersion is going to be 40', it's still going to be really hard to separate the noise generated by your ability from the ball characteristics. Keep in mind that that's the average dispersion, you will have many shots more than 40' away. Considering that for a mid swing speed the total difference in distance between the longest and shortest ball with an 8i was less than 24', the dispersion circles are going to have a ton of overlap. After about 20 shots with each ball on a launch monitor, I'd probably feel confident making a conclusion. But on the course, that's really hard. Hitting two balls on one green, two balls to the next, and so on, introduces so much noise that you can't really be confident in any conclusion you make.

 

And as the clubs get longer, your natural dispersion increases, so it becomes even harder to make conclusions. For this test they were hitting the each ball model quite a few times, with a robot, and it's still a struggle to find the differences. The Pro V1 carried about 5 yards less than the -V1x for a high swing speed driver. There's almost no way you'd ever be able to figure that out testing it yourself on the course. Even on an extreme example (B RXS vs -V1x) we're only talking 10 yards of carry. What's your average back to front dispersion with a driver on the course? I know mine is way more than 10 yards.

[DLiver]

Personally, the last test was extremely helpful in narrowing down the list of balls I should try. I ended up with a ball that fits my game very well. I think this test would probably provide enough information for me to be able to do that again. I look at the results of the test, and see that there isn't any ball the would clearly outperform what I am playing now. That's a good thing, because I have four dozen personalized balls sitting in my garage right now lol.

[Jeff58]

On 8/24/2021 at 10:34 AM, philsRHman said:

Wouldn't an adjustment for AoA only increase the spin for the Kirkland, along with all the rest? Or is the assumption they would all look more within range if the AoA was closer to a typical amateur's swing?

The effects of de-lofting at impact are to reduce launch angle and increase the spin rate. Pretty straight forward. The Kirkland was already shown last test (2019) to be both the lowest launch and highest spin in several shot categories.

 

You’re correct that all the balls are affected, but the overall effect is that the soft/high launch balls now look more “normal” and the Kirkland is made out to be a freak of nature.

 

Could just be a coincidence…

[trapsmv15]

On 8/20/2021 at 2:54 PM, ShowMe said:

ROBOT AVERAGES

• Club Speed: 77 mph
• Ball speed: 108 mph
• Launch Angle: 20.89
• Spin: 6,052
• Carry Yards: 158.69
• Total Yards: 173.54

Well, my dear Watson, the AVERAGE carry distance was 159 yards.

 

Do you have any PLAUSIBLE theories, since you claim there are a myriad of them?

Lmao - I appreciate the tone and fun here but that’s not how burden of proof works; you’re making the positive claim.

[ShowMe]

2 hours ago, trapsmv15 said:

Lmao - I appreciate the tone and fun here but that’s not how burden of proof works; you’re making the positive claim.

Lol.  I posited a theory for the astronomically high average carry distance.  He then trolled my response (he does that a lot, read some of his other posts...seems to have a lot of pent-up anger), so I asked him if he had any of his own theories to share.  He then did so, and we continued the spirited debate until it reached an unnatural conclusion.

 

But that's all water under the bridge.  The thread has moved on to discussing the results, as unimpressively immaterial as they are.

[bigeasy]

This is a test and only a test, your mileage will vary.

[Ampire2121]

I came here thinking I was going to learn about golf balls.  But quickly learned that titelist promote elitism (allegedly), capitalism is bad?(allegedly), robot testing is useless since no one has the same swing, and everyone would be a better ball tester than MGS.  
 

anyway…did the golf ball you play show the data you expected from this test result or no? 
 

 Curious how many here were surprised or just confirmed your suspicion with the results were released. 
 

playing TP5x, Prov1x and Snell MTB Black.

 

results confirmed my suspicion since I don’t have the equipment to test anything lol. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Ampire2121

[trapsmv15]

In the 85 mph bracket, I’ve been testing the AVX and B XS the last week against the V1X I played for two years and Chrome Soft/CSX, and man if I don’t like the 2020 AVX a ton. Only ever played the first iteration and my short game went to crap.

 

As arbeck said, humans aren’t great at spotting patterns like this so you can grain of salt this, but….. I seem to deliver too much dynamic loft at impact, so I can launch the ball kind of high and floaty. For me on driver I found the AVX to be as long as the Pro V1X and the B XS consistently slightly behind them. The problem with that was more so I keep curving the heck out of the XS and it being offline hurts it in my head. I think if you connect on all these balls at my slow a swing speed they’re gonna be close enough. It seems like iron and pitching preference is the differentiator we should be looking at. Like I said, too much loft for me — high and floaty. AVX off the irons is a perfect flight and has held greens surprisingly well for me. XS and V1X do an even better job of it, but the XS just goes and goes with my hook and the V1X a little less so. I want the XS to win to be honest, it’s green stopping power is awesome for the tiny greens I play on. It’s a lot like the CSX; I wanted to play that ball exclusively this year but it was slightly spinny and too low off the driver and 5+ yards shorter always. THAT pattern I am 99 percent sure of.

 

So again, patterns, but same shots with the AVX behave like the CS I had been playing recently for me but the AVX is just incrementally better in every category than CS. For me only.

 

It sucks to have to buy several different types of balls and figure it out over time (I’ll do this until the spring) but it is what it is.

 

Thanks for wading through the long post.

[driveandputtmachine]

On 8/7/2021 at 10:52 AM, Nessism said:

 

No other equipment company spends like Titleist does to promote their tour association.  It's the cornerstone of their entire promotion scheme because they want to create a facade of being "the best."   

 

And I'm not talking about $50 vs $48.  I'm talking about $40 (on discount) Pro V1 vs. lots of other urethane tour balls I've been able to buy for $22 or less.  That's a big price difference.

 

BUT even if there wasn't the price difference, I just don't like Titleist for their BS "what the pro's play" scheme.  Cameron putters wouldn't even be a brand if it weren't for Ping since pretty much every putter he made early in his career was a knockoff.

Cameron wouldn’t be a brand if he didn’t take tad moore seconds, stamp them with his name and push them while he was a tour rep.  Let’s call a spade a spade.

[Ampire2121]

6 hours ago, trapsmv15 said:

In the 85 mph bracket, I’ve been testing the AVX and B XS the last week against the V1X I played for two years and Chrome Soft/CSX, and man if I don’t like the 2020 AVX a ton. Only ever played the first iteration and my short game went to crap.

 

As arbeck said, humans aren’t great at spotting patterns like this so you can grain of salt this, but….. I seem to deliver too much dynamic loft at impact, so I can launch the ball kind of high and floaty. For me on driver I found the AVX to be as long as the Pro V1X and the B XS consistently slightly behind them. The problem with that was more so I keep curving the heck out of the XS and it being offline hurts it in my head. I think if you connect on all these balls at my slow a swing speed they’re gonna be close enough. It seems like iron and pitching preference is the differentiator we should be looking at. Like I said, too much loft for me — high and floaty. AVX off the irons is a perfect flight and has held greens surprisingly well for me. XS and V1X do an even better job of it, but the XS just goes and goes with my hook and the V1X a little less so. I want the XS to win to be honest, it’s green stopping power is awesome for the tiny greens I play on. It’s a lot like the CSX; I wanted to play that ball exclusively this year but it was slightly spinny and too low off the driver and 5+ yards shorter always. THAT pattern I am 99 percent sure of.

 

So again, patterns, but same shots with the AVX behave like the CS I had been playing recently for me but the AVX is just incrementally better in every category than CS. For me only.

 

It sucks to have to buy several different types of balls and figure it out over time (I’ll do this until the spring) but it is what it is.

 

Thanks for wading through the long post.

I’m not surprised you like the AVX the way you describe how the other balls react to your game.  
 

That’s exactly how I think MSG described people who may like that ball. 
 

I tried the B XS as well and just found the ball too spiny on bad shots.  But man they are awesome around the green.  The ball has so much stopping power.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

[darsony]

The best way to choose a golf ball is to play an entire round with it and see what your score is. The golf ball test is a great way to get an idea of what ball might fit your needs.  We all know that golf scores are determined by how well you control your ball and how lucky your bounces are. They say you should swing the lightest clubs that you can control, maybe that should be extended to include also using the longest golf ball you can control (and that includes control around the greens).

[ShowMe]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:29 PM, Ampire2121 said:

I came here thinking I was going to learn about golf balls.  But quickly learned that titelist promote elitism (allegedly), capitalism is bad?(allegedly), robot testing is useless since no one has the same swing, and everyone would be a better ball tester than MGS.  
 

anyway…did the golf ball you play show the data you expected from this test result or no? 
 

 Curious how many here were surprised or just confirmed your suspicion with the results were released. 
 

playing TP5x, Prov1x and Snell MTB Black.

 

results confirmed my suspicion since I don’t have the equipment to test anything lol. 

I had $20 on the robot hitting the TP5 the best.  Oh well.

[trapsmv15]

15 hours ago, Ampire2121 said:

I’m not surprised you like the AVX the way you describe how the other balls react to your game.  
 

That’s exactly how I think MSG described people who may like that ball. 
 

I tried the B XS as well and just found the ball too spiny on bad shots.  But man they are awesome around the green.  The ball has so much stopping power.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

Short game is the best part of my game by far (has to be when I’m so short) and the XS just has me drooling every single time around the greens. Shouldn’t surprise me being Tiger’s ball but it’s sooooo good. I’m not going to give up on it for that fact and of course, extra curve on misses doesn’t matter as much when your misses are better — and that part’s on me as a player. Bias is as bias does.

[tsecor]

On 8/29/2021 at 8:12 AM, trapsmv15 said:

In the 85 mph bracket, I’ve been testing the AVX and B XS the last week against the V1X I played for two years and Chrome Soft/CSX, and man if I don’t like the 2020 AVX a ton. Only ever played the first iteration and my short game went to crap.

 

As arbeck said, humans aren’t great at spotting patterns like this so you can grain of salt this, but….. I seem to deliver too much dynamic loft at impact, so I can launch the ball kind of high and floaty. For me on driver I found the AVX to be as long as the Pro V1X and the B XS consistently slightly behind them. The problem with that was more so I keep curving the heck out of the XS and it being offline hurts it in my head. I think if you connect on all these balls at my slow a swing speed they’re gonna be close enough. It seems like iron and pitching preference is the differentiator we should be looking at. Like I said, too much loft for me — high and floaty. AVX off the irons is a perfect flight and has held greens surprisingly well for me. XS and V1X do an even better job of it, but the XS just goes and goes with my hook and the V1X a little less so. I want the XS to win to be honest, it’s green stopping power is awesome for the tiny greens I play on. It’s a lot like the CSX; I wanted to play that ball exclusively this year but it was slightly spinny and too low off the driver and 5+ yards shorter always. THAT pattern I am 99 percent sure of.

 

So again, patterns, but same shots with the AVX behave like the CS I had been playing recently for me but the AVX is just incrementally better in every category than CS. For me only.

 

It sucks to have to buy several different types of balls and figure it out over time (I’ll do this until the spring) but it is what it is.

 

Thanks for wading through the long post.

the V1x is not good for you if you are already creating more dynamic loft than you need...the V1x spins a lot and it is probably hurting your distance. I had the same issue with the BXS going way off target when a lot of spin was applied on a mishit....i wanted to like the BSX, but we just didnt get along. 

 

the Chromesoft may be the most forgiving ball i have ever played....it just goes straight and its pretty darn long for my swing speed....the CSX may be the better all around ball as it plays very well tee to green......if you have a high descent angle, dont worry about spin coming into the green. It sounds like your ball comes in high, so the AVX or any other low spin ball will hold for you. 

 

The one ball that is clearly longer than any other ball i have hit is the Left dash prov1......i played yesterday and used this ball onn a few holes and its a low spin monster off the tee....i played in a scramble and the team was making commenets on how i was bombing it....and i was consistently 10 yards further than the whole team....i used the CSX for most of the day and its a great ball....

[tsecor]

15 hours ago, ShowMe said:

I had $20 on the robot hitting the TP5 the best.  Oh well.

the new TP5 is not as good as the 2019 version. 

 

TM really messed up the new TP5.....i loved the 2019 version, hated the 2019 tp5x......now i like the 2021 TP5X and really am disapointed at the 2021 TP5

[AmazinBlue]

Switched to the Titleist Tour Speed because of the test results and wh a t it showed about my old ball the Bstone rxs.  I'm hitting more greens and fairways and I have picked up 3-5 yards with my irons.

[sshadow2]

Huge 2021 V1x fan now and this test confirms what I see when I use it.

 

I've played the 2019/2020 TP5 for 2 years now. For my game, I find the 2019 to be a good ball, with the 2020 being even better. The 2021 TP5 I do not like.

 

I was never really a fan of Titleist balls at all, but then I got to try the 2021s... all I can say is wow -- especially for the Pro V1x! My swing speed isn't really high but this ball's characteristics give me a longer and more satisfying flight. It seems to be less affected by the wind and feels great from driver to putter. All with very good durability -- I can play 2 9-hole and at least a full 18 with one ball.

[arbeck]

This might deserve it's own thread, but Ping has just launched a ball fitting tool:

 

Ballnamic

 

It's not free. But I went ahead and paid the $39 for it. I just happened to have my trackman numbers from Saturday, so I input them. Versus my current ball (the Snell MTB-X) it recommended me the Chromesoft X. It would gain me about 4 yards with the driver, but lose some a little with irons. It's slightly better into the wind with a driver. The height difference and trajectory difference is within feet of each other.

 

I'd probably have to play 1000 rounds before I would hit enough shots to see a real difference.
 

 

[tsecor]

25 minutes ago, arbeck said:

This might deserve it's own thread, but Ping has just launched a ball fitting tool:

 

Ballnamic

 

It's not free. But I went ahead and paid the $39 for it. I just happened to have my trackman numbers from Saturday, so I input them. Versus my current ball (the Snell MTB-X) it recommended me the Chromesoft X. It would gain me about 4 yards with the driver, but lose some a little with irons. It's slightly better into the wind with a driver. The height difference and trajectory difference is within feet of each other.

 

I'd probably have to play 1000 rounds before I would hit enough shots to see a real difference.
 

 

39 bucks for aa ball fitting? lol   god bless you

[arbeck]

2 minutes ago, tsecor said:

39 bucks for aa ball fitting? lol   god bless you

It's the same price as a dozen balls. Better than buying 4 sleeves of balls and trying to fit yourself.