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2021 Golf Ball Test


rkelso184

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3 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

You learned quicker than I did. It took me about 5 years ago before getting away from a 2 piece ball goes longer mentality. Found out that the Pro V1 was actually a playable ball for me, then started trying some cheaper surlyn 3 piece like the Vice Tour and now the E12 contact are great for my game. They bite very well on my local greens conpared to my preferred 2 piece. 

My big experiment was the spring and summer of 2011. I got rid of my "players" irons and got some Ping "shovels". Also switched from whatever ball I'd been playing (maybe TP Red LDP?) to the original version of the e6 which was touted as a slice-killer. 

 

Sure enough I hit the ball higher and straighter with the new clubs and the e6 ball. But then I tried a few other balls in place of the e6 and got the same results. For me it was definitely the big high-MOI heads, wide soles and lighter shafts that were doing me the most good.

 

Then in the summer of 2012 I was given a dozen Pro V1x that everyone got who played in an event. I put them in play and they were 100% certainly no shorter than the 2pc and 3pc Surlyn balls. If anything I picked up a few yards of carry distance. 

 

Given how terribly the early 2000's versions of Pro V1/Pro V1x had performed for me, I'm not sure I'd have ever given the 2011 version a fair tryout. But getting that box of them without actually making a choice to buy them...lucky break. 

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1 hour ago, NoTalentLefty said:

In all this it’s amazing how there isn’t much difference in  distance in most golf balls. In the 1970s when I started, durability was an issue and distance was all over the place on golf balls. Titleist cut so easy I couldn’t afford to use them and with the Hugh spin numbers it didn’t go no where with the ugly swing I had. The best ball for me then was the molitor or it’s brother top flite but they were too expensive for me. We would use a ball called the eagle or the kro flite.  Also back then you sliced you could end up over a fairway or more over even with an iron. 
  Glad all this has changed. One thing is a constant though, still complaining about the cost of Titleist….. lol

My history with golf balls is a lot like yours; just couldn’t afford to play balata balls because of the incredible lack of durability, plus where I was in life at that point.

 

When the Titleist Professional came along, things started to change,  at least for me, because my “per round cost” went way,way down with the added durability.  But still, in a scramble outing I’d take a bag of Top Flites, Pinnacles, etc, to hit off the tee, then switch and hit the Professional into the green; the Professional was longer than balata, but still nothing like a two piece.

 

When the Tour Accuracy/Rule 35/ProV1 balls came along, at some point it finally dawned on me that the two piece balls I’d been carrying around didn’t go a bit farther, and that was the end of that.  And if you don’t lose ‘em, the per round cost has continued to come down; the urethane covers now are close to being as durable as Surlyn.

 

Lovely, lovely thing to be able to have it all in a golf ball, and to have so many great choices.

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11 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

:classic_laugh: You've already messed up "capitalism" and "price fixing" so now you give it another try with "vertical price fixing" ?

 

Per your own description, copied from elsewhere, the "vertical price fixing" you claim, just like the definition of "price fixing" itself, is between multiple companies.

 

"De facto" or not, Titleist can't "price fix" their own product(s). They CAN set minimum retail prices for their products, which is what they and other manufacturers have done.

 

And since it's supposedly illegal in the U.S., per your post, how do you suppose they get away with it ?

 

Vertical price fixing actually does involve parties along the supply chain so the manufacturer+retailer relationship would qualify. 

 

However, price protection strategies like MAP (minimum advertised price) do not qualify as vertical price fixing because it is not explicitly limiting sales below an explicit threshold, only the advertising to entice the consumer to that retailer. Additionally, some seem to be confusing MAP with an RPMA (resale price maintenance agreement) which most commonly set an explicit minimum price (which used to be illegal but has become more of a gray area in recent years due to conflicting court decisions). 

 

Either way, if someone is going to boycott Acushnet based on MAP practices, they should be doing the same for all of the major OEMs since they all engage in this practice. 

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12 minutes ago, storm319 said:

 

Vertical price fixing actually does involve parties along the supply chain so the manufacturer+retailer relationship would qualify. 

 

However, price protection strategies like MAP (minimum advertised price) do not qualify as vertical price fixing because it is not explicitly limiting sales below an explicit threshold, only the advertising to entice the consumer to that retailer. Additionally, some seem to be confusing MAP with an RPMA (resale price maintenance agreement) which most commonly set an explicit minimum price (which used to be illegal but has become more of a gray area in recent years due to conflicting court decisions). 

 

Either way, if someone is going to boycott Acushnet based on MAP practices, they should be doing the same for all of the major OEMs since they all engage in this practice. 

A MAP policy is one in which a supplier or manufacturer limits the ability of their distributors to advertise prices below a certain level. Unlike a resale-price-maintenance agreement, a MAP policy does not stop a retailer from actually selling below any minimum price.  

 

In a resale price maintenance policy or agreement, by contrast, the manufacturer doesn’t allow distributors to sell the products below a certain price.

 

Titleist and Ping de facto don't allow retailers to sell below a certain price.  If a retailer does, then their account gets pulled.  That is a de facto resale price maintenance agreement.

 

That said, here is some more insight into why Titleist and Ping are allowed to get away with this anti-consumer behavior.  Hint - they've implemented a "Colgate policy."

 

Resale Price Maintenance

Before we go further, let’s review a little bit. A resale price maintenance agreement is a deal between a manufacturer and some sort of distributor (including a retailer that sells to the end user) that the distributor will not sell the product for less than a set price. Up until the US Supreme Court decided Leegin in 2007, these types of agreements were per se illegal under the federal antitrust laws.

Resale price maintenance agreements are no longer per se federal antitrust violations, but several states, including California, New York, and Maryland may consider them per se antitrust violations under state law, so most national manufacturers avoid the risk and implement a unilateral Colgate policy instead.

Under federal law, courts now usually analyze resale-price-maintenance agreements under the antitrust rule of reason.

Colgate Policies

Colgate policies are named after a 1919 Supreme Court decision that held that it is not a federal antitrust violation for a manufacturer to unilaterally announce in advance the prices at which it will allow its product to be resold, then refuse to deal with any distributors that violate that policy. You can read our article about Colgate policies here.

The bottom line with Colgate is that in most situations the federal antitrust laws do not forbid one company from unilaterally refusing to deal with another. There are, of course, exceptions, so don’t rely on this point without consulting an antitrust lawyer.

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Ping G430 LST 10.5* Tour Black 2.0 65X

Titleist TSr2+ 13* Diamana D+ Limited 80X

Titleist TSr2 16.5* Diamana D+ Limited 80X
Titleist TSi2 21* Speeder HB 8.8 TS
Ping G430 5-UW Steelfiber i80S
Ping Glide 2.0 SS 54* Steelfiber i80S

Cleveland CBX 2 60* DG 115
Scottie Super Select Squareback 2

Titleist AVX/Bridgestone BRX

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4 hours ago, NoTalentLefty said:

In all this it’s amazing how there isn’t much difference in  distance in most golf balls. In the 1970s when I started, durability was an issue and distance was all over the place on golf balls. Titleist cut so easy I couldn’t afford to use them and with the Hugh spin numbers it didn’t go no where with the ugly swing I had. The best ball for me then was the molitor or it’s brother top flite but they were too expensive for me. We would use a ball called the eagle or the kro flite.  Also back then you sliced you could end up over a fairway or more over even with an iron. 
  Glad all this has changed. One thing is a constant though, still complaining about the cost of Titleist….. lol

I started golfing in the mid-70s, as a young teenager.  The two-piece Molitor and Top-Flite were a revelation at the time.  Long and straight (at least compared to the balata balls), but hard as a rock.  Heaven forbid you thin an iron shot on a cold morning.  Your fingers would be numb for the next couple of shots.  The Pinnacle Gold when it was released was also a revelation.  The first "soft" two-piece golf ball.  

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Ping G430 LST 10.5* Tour Black 2.0 65X

Titleist TSr2+ 13* Diamana D+ Limited 80X

Titleist TSr2 16.5* Diamana D+ Limited 80X
Titleist TSi2 21* Speeder HB 8.8 TS
Ping G430 5-UW Steelfiber i80S
Ping Glide 2.0 SS 54* Steelfiber i80S

Cleveland CBX 2 60* DG 115
Scottie Super Select Squareback 2

Titleist AVX/Bridgestone BRX

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1 hour ago, storm319 said:

 

Vertical price fixing actually does involve parties along the supply chain so the manufacturer+retailer relationship would qualify. 

 

However, price protection strategies like MAP (minimum advertised price) do not qualify as vertical price fixing because it is not explicitly limiting sales below an explicit threshold, only the advertising to entice the consumer to that retailer. Additionally, some seem to be confusing MAP with an RPMA (resale price maintenance agreement) which most commonly set an explicit minimum price (which used to be illegal but has become more of a gray area in recent years due to conflicting court decisions). 

 

Either way, if someone is going to boycott Acushnet based on MAP practices, they should be doing the same for all of the major OEMs since they all engage in this practice. 

 

Thanks for the clarification of "vertical" in the supply chain; multiple companies doing business with the manufacturer.

 

My apologies to ShowMe for not being familiar with the "vertical" part and for his subsequent explanations other business practices.

 

That said, thank you also for explaining this is not a "vertical price fixing" situation but instead MAP, which IS legal and which is not "price fixing" (of any kind). 👍

Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9.0 Ventus Blue 6S

Ping G425 14.5 Fairway Tour AD TP 6X

Ping G425 MAX 20.5 7 wood Diamana Blue 70 S

Titleist 716 AP-1  5-PW, DGS300

Ping Glide Forged, 48, DGS300

Taylormade MG3 52*, 56*, TW 60* DGS200

LAB Mezz Max 34*, RED, BGT Stability

Titleist Pro V1X

 

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So, I wonder what the results of the 2021 Golf Ball Test are going to look like?

Driver _____ Ping G400 Max
Woods ____ Ping G410 3 & 5, Cleveland XL HALO 7
Hybrids ___ Titleist 818H1 5H
Irons ______ Titleist T300 6-GW
Wedges ___ Titleist Vokey SM9 52.08F & 56.10S
Putter _____ Odyssey Dual Force Rossie 2 or Rife 2-Bar w/ Nickel Putter Golf Ball Pick-Up
Ball _______  Titleist ProV1 Yellow
Distance __ GPS:  Bushnell Phantom 2,  Rangefinder:  Precision Pro NX7 Pro
GHIN ______ HCP floats between 10 and 12

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The one thing the Spies could do to improve their tests is when they have a ball go way off line when hit with a robot is set that ball aside and give it the "ball lab" test.  They mentioned this a couple times in their podcast. Saying "one ball out of 30 goes astray" would then have a little more weight.  Likewise in their ball lab test when they state X ball wasn't within the roundness guidelines or was out of weight limits, take it to the course and hit it and see if it really matters performance wise.  Plus I wonder when they say X core or mantle layer was off center did it occur at the factory or when they cut it in half?  Balls weren't designed to be cut open.  

 

They tend to dig deep but could explain their logic better with regards to how it impacts performance. 

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On 8/6/2021 at 10:23 PM, ShowMe said:

Amen to that!  While it may not technically be price-fixing, their MAP is definitely anti-capitalistic.

 

Ping does the same thing with their clubs, though, and I notice you have a bag full of Pings.  What's up with that?

How is it anti-capitalistic? You are free to purchase a comparable product from a competing company for less.

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1 hour ago, chippa13 said:

How is it anti-capitalistic? You are free to purchase a comparable product from a competing company for less.

There are about 50 successive posts debating the topic.  No need to regurgitate the argument.  Read the posts.

Ping G430 LST 10.5* Tour Black 2.0 65X

Titleist TSr2+ 13* Diamana D+ Limited 80X

Titleist TSr2 16.5* Diamana D+ Limited 80X
Titleist TSi2 21* Speeder HB 8.8 TS
Ping G430 5-UW Steelfiber i80S
Ping Glide 2.0 SS 54* Steelfiber i80S

Cleveland CBX 2 60* DG 115
Scottie Super Select Squareback 2

Titleist AVX/Bridgestone BRX

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Really looking forward to the results of the 2021 Golf Ball Test.  

Driver _____ Ping G400 Max
Woods ____ Ping G410 3 & 5, Cleveland XL HALO 7
Hybrids ___ Titleist 818H1 5H
Irons ______ Titleist T300 6-GW
Wedges ___ Titleist Vokey SM9 52.08F & 56.10S
Putter _____ Odyssey Dual Force Rossie 2 or Rife 2-Bar w/ Nickel Putter Golf Ball Pick-Up
Ball _______  Titleist ProV1 Yellow
Distance __ GPS:  Bushnell Phantom 2,  Rangefinder:  Precision Pro NX7 Pro
GHIN ______ HCP floats between 10 and 12

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24 minutes ago, crazygolfnut said:

Really looking forward to the results of the 2021 Golf Ball Test.  

I hear that the balls created by the price-fixing anti-consumer company did very well.  😀

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Ping G430 LST 10.5* Tour Black 2.0 65X

Titleist TSr2+ 13* Diamana D+ Limited 80X

Titleist TSr2 16.5* Diamana D+ Limited 80X
Titleist TSi2 21* Speeder HB 8.8 TS
Ping G430 5-UW Steelfiber i80S
Ping Glide 2.0 SS 54* Steelfiber i80S

Cleveland CBX 2 60* DG 115
Scottie Super Select Squareback 2

Titleist AVX/Bridgestone BRX

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On 8/8/2021 at 1:41 PM, ShowMe said:

Let's put it a different way, beyond the argument of capitalism.

 

Titleist and Ping hurt the consumer by not allowing retailers to sell their products at lower prices.  Sure they may "protect the small retailer" and more importantly to them, protect their huge profit margins, but it's at the expense of the consumer's wallet.  That said, it doesn't bother me as much when Ping does it, as their clubs are already reasonably priced compared to their competitors.

 

Price fixing by any manufacturer is anti-consumer.

When the Eye2's were the most popular club in the history of the game, you could only by Ping's custom fit through a pro shop.  Ping was trying to protect the proshop at the green grass shop.  Big box wasn't as big a deal back then, you could buy some stuff through mail order catalogs, like Edwin Watts and where I lived there was a Nevada Bobs that was a semi big box retailer.  Pro shops thrived back then, most had a large supply of clubs in stock, the pro fit you and gave you lessons.  Ping did not stock clubs, custom fit and ordered only.  Yes they were more expensive, maybe $600 vs. $400 for some Wilson Staffs.  

 

I suppose PXG tried to do the same thing at first only selling to custom shops, but of course there markups were much higher.  Now that you can order on-line DTC they of course can lower prices as there is no middle man.  

 

Personally I like Ping and Titleist's philosophy, in my mind it actually protects the consumer, it helps maintain the value of your purchase.  

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Ping G400 Testing G410.  10.5 set at small -
Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

Ping G410 5 hybrid-not much use.  
Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. 5-G
Vokey 54.10, 2009 58.12 M, Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG3 56* TW grind.  Or Ping Glide Stealth, 54,58 SS.  
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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21 hours ago, flushem said:


is there Las Vegas betting chart for the winner?

1.  ProV1 X

2.  ProV1

3.  ProV left Dash

4.  AVX

5.  Tour Speed

6 Bridgestone BXS

 

....do I need to keep going?  🙂  

Ping G400 Testing G410.  10.5 set at small -
Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

Ping G410 5 hybrid-not much use.  
Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. 5-G
Vokey 54.10, 2009 58.12 M, Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG3 56* TW grind.  Or Ping Glide Stealth, 54,58 SS.  
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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1 hour ago, dlygrisse said:

1.  ProV1 X

2.  ProV1

3.  ProV left Dash

4.  AVX

5.  Tour Speed

6 Bridgestone BXS

 

....do I need to keep going?  🙂  

I'm going with the left dash ProV1 and the Snell MTB-X

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Driver: PING G425 LST/Callaway Epic Speed LS
3 wood: Taylormade mini 300
2 Hybrid Callaway Maverick

4 Hybrid Taylormade Superfast

5-UW: Ping i210
Maltby TSW sand wedge

Odyssey OG 2 Ball stroke lab
Titleist ProV1 left dash/Snell MTB-X/Vice Pro Plus

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I agree that the Snell MTB-X will be towards the top. 

Driver _____ Ping G400 Max
Woods ____ Ping G410 3 & 5, Cleveland XL HALO 7
Hybrids ___ Titleist 818H1 5H
Irons ______ Titleist T300 6-GW
Wedges ___ Titleist Vokey SM9 52.08F & 56.10S
Putter _____ Odyssey Dual Force Rossie 2 or Rife 2-Bar w/ Nickel Putter Golf Ball Pick-Up
Ball _______  Titleist ProV1 Yellow
Distance __ GPS:  Bushnell Phantom 2,  Rangefinder:  Precision Pro NX7 Pro
GHIN ______ HCP floats between 10 and 12

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Just now, DLiver said:

I hate it when interesting threads go to cwap when a group of butt hurt dudes take it off the rails. I am looking forward to see what the ball test says.

Well if you take out the "butt hurt dudes" you'd have about a two-page thread of people saying "Gee I wish they'd hurry up and post the test results". Kind of like that 1,000 page K-Sig thread that's been going on for years. 

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21 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Well if you take out the "butt hurt dudes" you'd have about a two-page thread of people saying "Gee I wish they'd hurry up and post the test results". Kind of like that 1,000 page K-Sig thread that's been going on for years. 

 

And if somebody reported the thread, because of the site the thread is referring to, we'd not have a thread at all.   coffee.gif

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Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9.0 Ventus Blue 6S

Ping G425 14.5 Fairway Tour AD TP 6X

Ping G425 MAX 20.5 7 wood Diamana Blue 70 S

Titleist 716 AP-1  5-PW, DGS300

Ping Glide Forged, 48, DGS300

Taylormade MG3 52*, 56*, TW 60* DGS200

LAB Mezz Max 34*, RED, BGT Stability

Titleist Pro V1X

 

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49 minutes ago, crazygolfnut said:

I agree that the Snell MTB-X will be towards the top. 

It’s that good, for sure. By far the best of the DTC balls, and for the most part, as good as anything else on the market.

 

I used them exclusively for a year but stopped mostly because I had some issues with the durability of the cover. But for the bulk price, nothing can beat it.

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3 hours ago, flushem said:

you must be a Titleist rep.  too bias.

Nope. Just predicting what they will say based on everything I have read over there. They are big fans of Titleist especially from a consistency standpoint. They seems to value that a lot. 
 

They seem to like Snell as well but it’s not as consistent 

Ping G400 Testing G410.  10.5 set at small -
Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

Ping G410 5 hybrid-not much use.  
Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. 5-G
Vokey 54.10, 2009 58.12 M, Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG3 56* TW grind.  Or Ping Glide Stealth, 54,58 SS.  
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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44 minutes ago, bluedot said:

It’s that good, for sure. By far the best of the DTC balls, and for the most part, as good as anything else on the market.

 

I used them exclusively for a year but stopped mostly because I had some issues with the durability of the cover. But for the bulk price, nothing can beat it.

What ball are you gaming now, BD?

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I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, but MG s stated that the results are being released August 16th.

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Driver: PING G425 LST/Callaway Epic Speed LS
3 wood: Taylormade mini 300
2 Hybrid Callaway Maverick

4 Hybrid Taylormade Superfast

5-UW: Ping i210
Maltby TSW sand wedge

Odyssey OG 2 Ball stroke lab
Titleist ProV1 left dash/Snell MTB-X/Vice Pro Plus

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1 hour ago, bluedot said:

ProV1x.  Absurdly durable in addition to its other attributes.

Although I  like the AVX, I think overall the 2021 ProV1X is as close to a no-brainer of a ball that I have ever played. Like the Snell MTB-X, but it is consistently a tad bid shorter for me and feels a bit firmer, so the ProV1X it is.

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On 8/11/2021 at 12:04 AM, gioreeko said:

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, but MG s stated that the results are being released August 16th.

If my ball doesn't win, then I will file a suit to audit the results.  They did use a Dominion robot, after all.  Wait, too soon?  🙂

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Ping G430 LST 10.5* Tour Black 2.0 65X

Titleist TSr2+ 13* Diamana D+ Limited 80X

Titleist TSr2 16.5* Diamana D+ Limited 80X
Titleist TSi2 21* Speeder HB 8.8 TS
Ping G430 5-UW Steelfiber i80S
Ping Glide 2.0 SS 54* Steelfiber i80S

Cleveland CBX 2 60* DG 115
Scottie Super Select Squareback 2

Titleist AVX/Bridgestone BRX

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      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
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