Who bags two irons with the same number on the bottom of the club?

[Mookieb10]

For example, I play some traditionally lofted irons from 5-PW and I’m shafting up a P790 5 iron to use as my “4 iron”. The P790 5 iron will be 23.5* and my traditional 5 iron in 27.5*. 
 

How would you handle the club length in this scenario? My traditional 5 iron is 38.5” and I’d usually play a 4 iron at 38.75 or 39”. However, this is a 5 iron head, which will be approximately 7-8 grams heavier than a 4 iron head. This head was originally in a club, built by TM, that played standard length and swing weight in an DG 120 S300 shaft. If I play it at 38.75, I’ll start to bump up against some swing weight issues. If I play it at 38.5”, I’m uncertain how that gapping would look. 
 

Thoughts? Particularly, how much distance would you expect 1/2” take away? FYI, I’m open to a myriad of different solutions including cutting a 1/4” off the traditional 5 iron or bending the P790 a touch stronger and/or the Legacy Black a touch weaker. 

[daw229]

I have 2 five irons. Also went with a p790 5 iron to match with my p750. Plays at a 4 iron length.  The experiment worked out really well. 

[Jack Pearsall]

He sometimes has a 21* driving iron and a 21* hybrid in his bag. 

[Spankapotamus redux]

I've played regularly with 3 4h's. A 20 degree BB19 (200 yd), a 23 degree M3 (175-185), and a 23 degree Cobra DWS (160-170). The M3 is now gone, but they all have me significantly different shots. True, the 20 degree isn't really the same as the others, more of a 3h degree wise, but it's still marked a 4h.

[bnperrone]

I currently have a driving iron and a hybrid that are essentially the same carry club, but the flight and rollout is really different and I'm "in-between" fairway woods which means they both have room in the bag.

 

When it all gets sorted out, I may very well wind up with two "4-irons", according to stamping, but if they're 20 yards apart on carry distance I won't care what the number on the club is.

[Payton1020]

I have a set in the garage that I built with 2 6 irons. 1 bent as close to 7 iron loft as I could get. At the time, couldn't find a 7 iron head.

[ChipNRun]

You need to look at Cameron Champ's bag. He won the 3M with two Ping 4 irons in his bag:

 

Driver: Ping G425 LST (10.5 degrees @9) (14g CG shifter in neutral)
      Shaft: Mitsubishi Tensei AV Raw White 75 TX (45.25 inches, tipped 1.5 inches, D6+)

Irons: Ping i500 (3, 4), Ping iBlade (4-PW)
      Shafts: True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X7

Wedges: TaylorMade MG Hi-Toe Raw (52, 56, 60)
      Shafts: True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S400

Putter: Ping Prototype PLD Anser 4

 

CC - WITB - 3M

[jomatty]

I have apex pro 19’s in 7-p and an epic forged 7 iron and 6 iron that I use as my 5 and 6 iron.  The length works out fine as the epic forged are longer than standard.  I have recoil 95’s in the apex pros and planned on putting the same shaft in the epic forged but the steelfiber fc90’s in them worked out well so I never bothered changing it.  Only once in probably 60 rounds or so have I hit the wrong 7 iron 😂 

[rondre3000]

*raises hand*

 

Although I do it for different reasons. I have two 6 irons in my bag. One is from my Srixon zx5 set and the other is an old Callaway RAZR X Forged 6 iron from like 2012. It has the loft of my Srixon 7 iron, but half an inch longer. I use it to hit off of rocks or sketchy lies that I wouldn't dare hit my beloved Srixon off of. 🙂

 

Are you going to use the same DG S300 in the P790 head? Maybe look at something slightly lighter to avoid swing weight issues. I'd start it at 39" and see how it works out. 

[sfdoddsy]

I currently have a 6 iron and 6 hybrid with the same loft. The hybrid has a slightly longer shaft.

 

I tend to draw my long irons and hit the hybrid straight.

 

SO I use the 6 iron when I need a draw, or want to keep it low.

 

The 6 hybrid for high and straight or fade.

[rgk5]

Me, two 6-irons.  A Mizuno JPX 919 HM at 26* and a Cobra Tour forged at 28.5*.  At my course there are several shots between my six and seven iron, hence the need.

[miamistomp]

 I have a set pitching wedge that  is  more like a 9 iron of old and  Eye2 becu pitching wedge that is more like a modern gap wedge

[North Butte]

I had two "5-irons" or "6-irons" once, I remember that. But it was years ago and I don't remember which particular two sets of irons I was combining at the time. But it was like I was using the 4-5-6 from one set and the 6-7-8-9 from another set and it was a strong lofts versus weak lofts thing. But anyway, too many clubs since then to remember what they were...

[ilikegolf26]

I once had carried two 4 irons. I had one of them bent stronger and it was also a stronger shop loft to begin with (it was more of GI model) to act as more of a driving iron but give me a little more forgiveness.  I had it 3 iron length. 

[cn34]

Not exactly, but I carry a 5 hybrid and a 6 iron that are only 1 degree apart. My 6 iron is 27 degrees and the 5 Hybrid is 26 degrees. Through some experimenting I found that the gap  between these is about 13-15 yards which has been working well. The 5 hybrid then blends well down to the 4 hybrid.

 

I've never been a great long iron player. Took a while to get over my ego and bag the 5 hybrid but it's been great for some shots with yardages I have every time I play my home course. I think there's a very strong argument to be made for focusing less on having a clean bag with sequential clubs and just putting what fits your needs in the bag. 

[SlothofDespond]

11 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

You need to look at Cameron Champ's bag. He won the 3M with two Ping 4 irons in his bag:

 

Irons: Ping i500 (3, 4), Ping iBlade (4-PW)      

 

It makes sense when considering stock loft of the 4-irons iBlade is 23.5 while i500 is 21 degrees. Maybe bent for gapping but the 3-4 i500 he's carrying are basically a 2-3 relative to the iBlades. This should be somewhat common for folks with mixed sets.

[RainShadow]

Sometimes I take my G410 5hyb out and put in a 24* Epic Forged 6 iron that goes the same distance.

 Regular 6 iron is 26* and is slightly shorter in length

[Ghostwedge]

Always amazed at golfers who  carry certain clubs because its 1° degree stronger, etc.

I know a guy who carries 2 PW, can't chip or pitch with his stock graphite PW so he carrries a steel shaft Vokey for those shots. Does hit nice full shots with the the stock graphite shaft PW.

[JShaw]

7 hours ago, miamistomp said:

 I have a set pitching wedge that  is  more like a 9 iron of old and  Eye2 becu pitching wedge that is more like a modern gap wedge

I carried a Wilson Staff FG-17 pitching wedge as a gap wedge in the early 2000s.  This was long before I knew anything about golf club specs.  It filled the gap from my set pitching wedge and my sand wedge so I used it.  Results are all that matter.

[nicholasriehl]

Not irons but I did just picked up a #4 G410 Crossover at 23*. I think I really like it. I have a #4 G410 Hybrid as well. I think I'll just play the hybrid at 20.5-21* and maybe send the Crossover back to PING to set at 24* to make them both work. For some reason I hit the #4 hybrid at 21* so much more consistently than the #3 hybrid at 20* even with the same shaft model (although a little shorter in the #4 obviously)

[betarhoalphadelta]

19 hours ago, Mookieb10 said:

For example, I play some traditionally lofted irons from 5-PW and I’m shafting up a P790 5 iron to use as my “4 iron”. The P790 5 iron will be 23.5* and my traditional 5 iron in 27.5*. 
 

How would you handle the club length in this scenario? My traditional 5 iron is 38.5” and I’d usually play a 4 iron at 38.75 or 39”. However, this is a 5 iron head, which will be approximately 7-8 grams heavier than a 4 iron head. This head was originally in a club, built by TM, that played standard length and swing weight in an DG 120 S300 shaft. If I play it at 38.75, I’ll start to bump up against some swing weight issues. If I play it at 38.5”, I’m uncertain how that gapping would look. 
 

Thoughts? Particularly, how much distance would you expect 1/2” take away? FYI, I’m open to a myriad of different solutions including cutting a 1/4” off the traditional 5 iron or bending the P790 a touch stronger and/or the Legacy Black a touch weaker. 

 

So you figure there are three aspects to distance from a club:

• Loft
• Head Weight
• Speed

Loft largely impacts smash factor and launch angle--the more direct the blow, the higher the smash factor. PGA averages are 1.43 for a 4i (which is closest to the loft of your P790) and 1.41 for 5i. Launch angle is 10.4* for 4i, 11.0* for 5i.

 

Speed is IMHO primarily impacted by length. PGA is 96 mph for 4i, 94 mph for 5i.

 

Head weight is typically different for 4i vs 5i, but in this case we'll assume they're equal.

 

So you look at the kinetic energy of the head, which is 0.5mv^2. With the speed being squared, it has a bigger impact on the energy in the head at impact than the weight, so in a traditional 4i you will swing with more kinetic energy than a traditional 5i, despite the lighter head. 

 

So if you stick with the shorter shaft, you will lose a little kinetic energy, but the lower loft will mean that you capture more of that energy (smash factor) and launch with lower trajectory and lower spin.

 

 

Now... What does this mean? Well, to look at others that have had to solve these issues--single length iron companies. Wishon, for example uses a hollow iron body with a high-COR face on their lower-lofted irons to help turn some of that kinetic energy more efficiently into ball speed. That plus the difference in loft means that with the same length/weight/flex shafts, and with the same head weight, and with the same clubhead speed, they are still able to effectively gap their irons without changing shaft length.

 

BTW in the "One length irons WOW" thread we talk about this a lot... It's stated in that thread that 85% of the distance contribution is loft, and only 15% of it is the swing speed differences caused by additional shaft length. So at 38.5" with the P790 you're still at 4* less loft than the Legacy Black, you're only giving up maybe a little over 2% of the speed, but you're offsetting that speed difference by adding mass (and thus kinetic energy).

 

So look again at your problem. You're looking at a P790, which is a hollow-headed players distance iron with--I assume--a high-COR face, and a Callaway Legacy Black, which is a forged cavity back iron. 

 

My guess is that with the difference in head design and the difference in loft, and the additional head weight, you'll be fine with your gapping playing it at 38.5". 

 

[Tiptx1122]

[scooterhd2]

blasphemy. 

[Mookieb10]

20 hours ago, rondre3000 said:

*raises hand*

 

Although I do it for different reasons. I have two 6 irons in my bag. One is from my Srixon zx5 set and the other is an old Callaway RAZR X Forged 6 iron from like 2012. It has the loft of my Srixon 7 iron, but half an inch longer. I use it to hit off of rocks or sketchy lies that I wouldn't dare hit my beloved Srixon off of. 🙂

 

Are you going to use the same DG S300 in the P790 head? Maybe look at something slightly lighter to avoid swing weight issues. I'd start it at 39" and see how it works out. 

Nah. Going with an elevate tour shaft because... ummm... this is awwwkward. Uhhh. Icantgetitup. There. I said it. 

[Mookieb10]

4 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

So you figure there are three aspects to distance from a club:

• Loft
• Head Weight
• Speed

Loft largely impacts smash factor and launch angle--the more direct the blow, the higher the smash factor. PGA averages are 1.43 for a 4i (which is closest to the loft of your P790) and 1.41 for 5i. Launch angle is 10.4* for 4i, 11.0* for 5i.

 

Speed is IMHO primarily impacted by length. PGA is 96 mph for 4i, 94 mph for 5i.

 

Head weight is typically different for 4i vs 5i, but in this case we'll assume they're equal.

 

So you look at the kinetic energy of the head, which is 0.5mv^2. With the speed being squared, it has a bigger impact on the energy in the head at impact than the weight, so in a traditional 4i you will swing with more kinetic energy than a traditional 5i, despite the lighter head. 

 

So if you stick with the shorter shaft, you will lose a little kinetic energy, but the lower loft will mean that you capture more of that energy (smash factor) and launch with lower trajectory and lower spin.

 

 

Now... What does this mean? Well, to look at others that have had to solve these issues--single length iron companies. Wishon, for example uses a hollow iron body with a high-COR face on their lower-lofted irons to help turn some of that kinetic energy more efficiently into ball speed. That plus the difference in loft means that with the same length/weight/flex shafts, and with the same head weight, and with the same clubhead speed, they are still able to effectively gap their irons without changing shaft length.

 

BTW in the "One length irons WOW" thread we talk about this a lot... It's stated in that thread that 85% of the distance contribution is loft, and only 15% of it is the swing speed differences caused by additional shaft length. So at 38.5" with the P790 you're still at 4* less loft than the Legacy Black, you're only giving up maybe a little over 2% of the speed, but you're offsetting that speed difference by adding mass (and thus kinetic energy).

 

So look again at your problem. You're looking at a P790, which is a hollow-headed players distance iron with--I assume--a high-COR face, and a Callaway Legacy Black, which is a forged cavity back iron. 

 

My guess is that with the difference in head design and the difference in loft, and the additional head weight, you'll be fine with your gapping playing it at 38.5". 

 

Amazing analysis. I can’t thank you enough for dedicating your time to work that out for a complete stranger. 

[Mookieb10]

23 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

You need to look at Cameron Champ's bag. He won the 3M with two Ping 4 irons in his bag:

 

Driver: Ping G425 LST (10.5 degrees @9) (14g CG shifter in neutral)
      Shaft: Mitsubishi Tensei AV Raw White 75 TX (45.25 inches, tipped 1.5 inches, D6+)

Irons: Ping i500 (3, 4), Ping iBlade (4-PW)
      Shafts: True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X7

Wedges: TaylorMade MG Hi-Toe Raw (52, 56, 60)
      Shafts: True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S400

Putter: Ping Prototype PLD Anser 4

 

CC - WITB - 3M

Believe it or not, this witb is what inspired me to finally get this p790 5i shafted up. Maybe I’ll contact Ping to see what they have to say about the length. I’ll get back to you if I find an anser. 

[Luke'sdad]

Simply go by the loft & length, not the stamped number on the sole. Good example is my buddies set of Miz 800 forged irons. He will mix in a Cally Mavrik 5 iron (at 21 Degrees), which is closer to a stock 3 iron, and keep the Miz 5 iron in the bag. hey, whatever works, right?

[joostin]

10 hours ago, Mookieb10 said:

Maybe I’ll contact Ping to see what they have to say about the length. I’ll get back to you if I find an anser. 

Well done sir...

Looks like you're experimenting with shafts, but I was going to say stick with the DG same length as the other 5i and see how it goes.  Could be a little hotter, less spin, higher smash.  Also what you lose in speed vs a 1/2" longer 4i might be made up in better strike.

 

I had two 4 irons at one point, similar lengths and weights, a 20* with thin face and a 23* players cb, gap was fine.  And not a gap I'm really accurate with anyway.  Just depends what you're looking for out of the club.

[chipa]

On 7/29/2021 at 8:04 PM, Mookieb10 said:

For example, I play some traditionally lofted irons from 5-PW and I’m shafting up a P790 5 iron to use as my “4 iron”. The P790 5 iron will be 23.5* and my traditional 5 iron in 27.5*. 
 

How would you handle the club length in this scenario? My traditional 5 iron is 38.5” and I’d usually play a 4 iron at 38.75 or 39”. However, this is a 5 iron head, which will be approximately 7-8 grams heavier than a 4 iron head. This head was originally in a club, built by TM, that played standard length and swing weight in an DG 120 S300 shaft. If I play it at 38.75, I’ll start to bump up against some swing weight issues. If I play it at 38.5”, I’m uncertain how that gapping would look. 
 

Thoughts? Particularly, how much distance would you expect 1/2” take away? FYI, I’m open to a myriad of different solutions including cutting a 1/4” off the traditional 5 iron or bending the P790 a touch stronger and/or the Legacy Black a touch weaker. 

 

I have a similar situation and solution. I have the Titleist DCI 990B and my 5 iron is 28 deg. and 37.75" std. but I will be reshafting it to 38". I will be ordering a slighty more forgiving cb 5 iron of 26 deg. and putting in a 38.75" 92 g. shaft. I like my longer irons and woods to be D3-4. I expect to hit the 26 deg. 5 iron about 10-11 yards further than the DCI. I am opting for a higher loft club because my course has elevated and hard greens. My next longest club in my bag is my 7 wood, which should be no more than 17 yards longer.

 

Update: They didn't have the cb I wanted so I ordered a used a more forgiving DCI 962 4 iron just one degree weaker than the 5 iron that I was going to order. At the end of the day I just need to have my gaps setup and the number on the club is only a form of identification but meaningless regarding loft. 

Edited July 31, 2021 by chipa

[Mookieb10]

12 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I have a similar situation and solution. I have the Titleist DCI 990B and my 5 iron is 28 deg. and 37.75" std. but I will be reshafting it to 38". I will be ordering a slighty more forgiving cb 5 iron of 26 deg. and putting in a 38.75" 92 g. shaft. I like my longer irons and woods to be D3-4. I expect to hit the 26 deg. 5 iron about 10-11 yards further than the DCI. I am opting for a higher loft club because my course has elevated and hard greens. My next longest club in my bag is my 7 wood, which should be no more than 17 yards longer.

 

Update: They didn't have the cb I wanted so I ordered a used a more forgiving DCI 962 4 iron just one degree weaker than the 5 iron that I was going to order. At the end of the day I just need to have my gaps setup and the number on the club is only a form of identification but meaningless regarding loft. 

Nice job there. I also don’t so much care about what is said on the bottom of the club, I simply remember that I hit that 5iron pretty well and generally haven’t hit my long irons very well this year.