Is hip rotation in the downswing natural or learnt for most pros and good players?

[RichieHunt]

It's a bit of both.  Some naturally figure out the mechanics thru hitting balls and playing.  Others can't quite figure it out or they 'lose it' and need instruction to learn how to do it.

It's not so much a flexibility thing as it is understanding concepts and then getting the brain to adjust.  

 

I would say that most good players figured it out on their own because the later in life you try to learn it, the more difficult it becomes to learn due to having less neuroplasticity as you get older.

 

My friends Lucas Wald and Victor Rodriguez are great examples.  They learned to change their golf swings to allow for more rotation thru Kelvin Miyahira's instruction.  Lucas took years to get it down while Victor took months as Lucas is about 15 years older than Victor.

 

 

 

 

RH

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 7/31/2021 at 8:14 PM, Wormkiller said:

Personally I cant even see myself ever getting anywhere near that massive hip rotation the likes of Rahm get, where their belt buckles are almost facing the target at impact. And I know lack of hip rotation is a very common problem amongst amateurs. Is it something that the best golfers natural possess when they started swinging as kids, or is it typically a trained concept?

 

Is there anyone out there willing to share their experiences of gaining hip rotation through impact - successes and failures?

 

Thanks!

 

No, I don't think it's natural. If you want to figure out what is "natural" in a golf swing, just go to the range and watch all the duffers. You'll see "natural" in spades. OTT, stall/flip, lateral weight slide rather than shift/turn/shift/turn, staying back on the right foot, EE, etc. And that'll be the "good" players you see lol... And you'll see a whole lot of players who try to "fire" the hips, or they're spinning the hips, or doing all sorts of other screwy things because they've heard discussions in the English language of what the body is supposed to do, but really don't understand what that actually means.

 

So yeah, I don't think it's natural at all.

 

As for your second question, sure. I've played golf since before I was 10 (I'm 43 now). During my teens and some times later, I have actually taken lessons, and during those teen years I was pretty big into golf (although never played competitively). I was one of those teens with a "Golf Digest" subscription; not my dad's mind you, I ordered it for myself! I had a pretty solid swing; managed to be on plane, had an in->out path, wasn't OTT, and when I was hitting well, it was a beautiful draw. I was never particularly good, but largely it was because golf was an intermittent hobby for me, not something I actually devoted practice time or played enough to be good.

 

I spent some years away from the game and came back last summer during COVID. I decided I was at a point in my life where I could actually devote some time and work to trying to get halfway decent at this sport. So I found GolfWRX. And I uploaded some swings to the swing video forum here...

 

At which point I learned that I had a stall/flip and early extension. My hips returned to only square at impact. I was NOT rotating through.

 

So I got to researching how to fix it. And I tried, and tried, and researched, and realized with additional video that I was making absolutely ZERO progress based on internet instruction.

 

So in March, I went to see Monte. In about 5 minutes he diagnosed what was wrong and we spent the rest of an hour working on how to fix it. I've been working on those drills since. So I'm 4 months in, and I'm finally getting there. That's how hard of a battle it is to ingrain this motion. 

 

The real key was that during the lesson I had a total "light bulb" moment. With what we were working on, I had one swing where I felt my hips and lower body do what they were supposed to do. And it clicked--part of my problem was that I previously had NO reference point for what my body was supposed to do so I wasn't doing it. Once I got that feel into my mind, I knew the difference between the right way and the wrong way.

 

As for the fix, I'm sure that for each person it's different. But what I think may be helpful is the method for working through it... Don't work on it through full-speed swings. Monte told me to basically hit 70-80 yard 7i shots while working on it, and only intersperse full swings maybe every 4th or 5th ball. And he was right. I would use video to monitor my progress. On the partial swings, I'd see the right move occurring. On the full swings, I was doing the old move that my body was comfortable with. It literally took months for the right movement to start creeping into the full swings. 

 

As for where I am now? I'm getting much more open at impact, but I'm still having some EE problems. I still have too much of a lateral slide and although I get off my right side, I think I do it too late so I get the weight onto the outside of the left foot but never get it back to the heel and push that left hip back enough. So that's what I'm working on; getting the weight onto the left foot a little earlier and then using the left foot to push the left hip back... Another few more months, and I'll get it 😉

 

The truth for you, though, is that unless you have some major physical impediment, you CAN fix this. Maybe you won't be as open as some tour pros, but I'm sure you can be a lot better than you are today. Feel free to view my improvement thread if you want to see the sort of progress I've made and read the whole story. 

[golfarb1]

As I mentioned to you previously , you are only further ingraining your swing problems by practicing full length, full speed swings. 
In other words , you are wasting your time. 

Within each full swing is an 8-2 and an 9-3 swing . If these  smaller swings are flawed , it is guaranteed that your longer  swings will also contain these flaws plus more resulting from the longer ,faster swings. 
 

[dvq9654]

2 hours ago, Wormkiller said:

This is a dumb question, but can you define the pivot?

 

I don't know the exact definition, but in my mind it's a series of things:

 

1) Pressuring your trail foot early in the backswing 

2) Getting you trail hip up and back in the backswing 

3) Re-centering near the top of your backswing 

4) Pressuring the front leg in the downswing 

5) Rotating to the finish 

 

I guess you can say the pivot is somewhat defined by rotation, so if you are pivoting correctly you will have somewhat open hips at impact, which is not incorrect. My point is more so that most people don't do 1-3 even remotely correctly and once you do those three, 4-5 are a reaction, not a conscious effort, so trying to force 4 and 5 without having 1-3 is a recipe for early / mistimed rotation in most cases.

 

Rather than chasing open hips, chase a perfect backswing with proper hip depth and angles. If you do this, I can almost guarantee you'll be open enough at impact to play good golf.   

[cgasucks]

For me, my scores dropped like a rock once I just let my lower body open naturally (I don't even think about it) and just "unwind my right hand" on the downswing.  My "unwinding of the right hand" is a key swing thought for me on pitches, chips, flops and especially in the bunker.

[chipa]

52 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

No, I don't think it's natural. If you want to figure out what is "natural" in a golf swing, just go to the range and watch all the duffers. You'll see "natural" in spades. OTT, stall/flip, lateral weight slide rather than shift/turn/shift/turn, staying back on the right foot, EE, etc. And that'll be the "good" players you see lol... And you'll see a whole lot of players who try to "fire" the hips, or they're spinning the hips, or doing all sorts of other screwy things because they've heard discussions in the English language of what the body is supposed to do, but really don't understand what that actually means.

 

So yeah, I don't think it's natural at all.

 

 

 

You are right, looking at most golfers at a practice range and one would logically come to the same conclusion. However, if you looked at these same people throwing a ball or passing something heavy from one person to another(like a sandbag "line") and voila you would see the correct hip action. That is because the hip action in golf is dependent on a weight shift. Most high hc's don't seem to get this but think they somehow turn their hips too fast, in spite of the fact that many pros do the same even faster.

 

The reality is the hips can't turn if the left foot is up in the air or barely on the ground. Get this part right and the rest will take care of itself just like in other activities.

Edited August 2, 2021 by chipa

[betarhoalphadelta]

9 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

You are right, looking at most golfers at a practice range and one would logically come to the same conclusion. However, if you looked at these same people throwing a ball or passing something heavy from one person to another(like a sandbag "line") and voila you would see the correct hip action. That is because the hip action in golf is dependent on a weight shift. Most high hc's don't seem to get this but think they somehow turn their hips too fast, in spite of the fact that many pros do the same even faster.

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. 

 

Ever watch a bunch of 5 year olds in their first tee ball practice? I guarantee that the human throwing motion is a lot less "natural" than you think. The first mistake is that most of them step with the same side foot as their throwing hand, and they need to be taught to step opposite. But even then, SO many of them throw entirely with upper body and never learn the proper movements.

 

Even then, I'll bet when you watch a bunch of adult males just playing catch with a football, most of them probably have acceptable hip action, but probably not ideal hip action. Even once they've learned to throw, too many are throwing more with the arms and shoulders than the hips. Probably okay for playing catch, but you'll never throw with any real velocity that way. 

 

And your average Joe in a sandbag line will be lucky if he completes a shift without hurting his back because of bad motion. Ever see an average Joe trying to lift something heavy? How many of them lift with their back instead of their legs?

 

Most of us think throwing is natural because we don't even remember being taught. We were taught by Dad, or an older brother/cousin/uncle, at a VERY young age. Or we were just on the playground and imitated what the kids did who looked like they knew what they doing. And most of us probably don't do it very well, anyway. 

[phil75070]

When I made my comment above about what works for me I had not seen this video I am linking below. Especially starting at about the 5:00 minute mark, watch what he talks about in terms of getting to that belt buckle facing target finish!

 

You Will Hit It LONGER | IGNORED Easiest SWING SPEED Tips (Even A Senior Golf Swing) - YouTube

[Lobby]

3 hours ago, Wormkiller said:

It’s frustrating - I have a life time playing sports requiring hip rotation - throwing in cricket and baseball, ground strokes in tennis, but with hitting a golf ball I can’t get them open at impact. I reckon it is because I’m so armsy, and because of compensations due to backswing going inside too much etc.

 

ive been working on not taking the club so far inside, getting more hip rotation in the backswing and not turning so flat. Here is a swing from a drill Ive been doing. I did this drill at the range and for some reason I’ve been hitting the ball further and more solidly pausing the backswing than doing a normal swing. Still hips are perpendicular to the target at impact. I realise posture at address still needs improving looking at this.

https://youtube.com/shorts/qvkyXMOeuFI?feature=share

 

That's exactly the problem I have.

My mind believes that the only way to hit the ball is for my arms to swing thru the ball.

My arms are generally ahead of my lower body just like yours are.

It's a bad situation:  poor contact with irons, pushes, and pull hooks.

[chipa]

59 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Maybe, maybe not. 

 

Ever watch a bunch of 5 year olds in their first tee ball practice? I guarantee that the human throwing motion is a lot less "natural" than you think. The first mistake is that most of them step with the same side foot as their throwing hand, and they need to be taught to step opposite. But even then, SO many of them throw entirely with upper body and never learn the proper movements.

 

Even then, I'll bet when you watch a bunch of adult males just playing catch with a football, most of them probably have acceptable hip action, but probably not ideal hip action. Even once they've learned to throw, too many are throwing more with the arms and shoulders than the hips. Probably okay for playing catch, but you'll never throw with any real velocity that way. 

 

And your average Joe in a sandbag line will be lucky if he completes a shift without hurting his back because of bad motion. Ever see an average Joe trying to lift something heavy? How many of them lift with their back instead of their legs?

 

Most of us think throwing is natural because we don't even remember being taught. We were taught by Dad, or an older brother/cousin/uncle, at a VERY young age. Or we were just on the playground and imitated what the kids did who looked like they knew what they doing. And most of us probably don't do it very well, anyway. 

 

Regarding kids throwing things I didn't mean to imply that the first time they try they will have a natural movement. However, given enough time and no instruction they will get it. Kids have been throwing things as long as man has walked the earth. For that matter monkeys can throw too it's not difficult.

 

As far as the sandbag example, again it may take some time but after any length of time the body will adjust I promise you. 

 

I would recommend throwing tires to ingrain a natural feel of what I'm talking about. Just remember don't think about it or you will hurt the bodies own natural ability to have the muscles work together.

 

Also, from what I've noticed the guys that focus on complex and conscious movements of the hips and legs rarely get close to their max sustainable clubhead speed, plus if they are older like myself they will eventually hurt themselves.

[glk]

You have several items that stall your rotation.

 

setup up with butt too far back. Hips need to be aligned with ankles.

 

In the backswing you bring your pelvis toward the ball instead of maintaining or slightly increasing the distance.  Result is when your right hip start in downswing then you start standing up which stalls rotation.

 

Club face gets open in backswing and you never close it in transition or downswing so body stalls so arms can swing past and square the face.

 

shaft gets steep in transition which also leads to stall.

 

need to address these since each on their own will stall rotation.

[Wormkiller]

8 hours ago, Zitlow said:

@Wormkiller In every sport you play you use your lower body. You wouldn't throw a baseball and leave your right foot planted in the ground. Learn to free up your lower right side and your hip rotation will take care of itself. 

 

Believe me, Im trying..

 

Do you think consciously coming up on my right toes will help?

Edited August 2, 2021 by Wormkiller

[Nard_S]

 

[Wormkiller]

12 hours ago, hammersia said:

Kind of this really ^^^^
 

The recent Harrington videos are great and he talks much more about hips going up and down rather than rotating, the rotating is more subconscious. I advised a mate who was struggling, convinced he needed to be turning on dodgy knees, and it sorted him right out. I charged him 50 quid for the lesson as well. 

Are these vids from his own youtube page?

 

Thanks

[Wormkiller]

10 hours ago, iSwing said:

Of several issues trail leg seems like it enjoys extension because it's coming out high instead of flexing which is not good.   Need a front view too,  it looks like you are reversing a little.    In the meantime, going under hips instead of around hips is same as this from Player.   You may chunk it at first, but it may free up your lower and add some side tilt quicker than you think if you stop and think about what would be required. 

 

Thanks for this advice.

 

When you say the trail leg is coming out high, do you mean that its too fully extended at the top of the swing? Because i was told to do this to add hip rotation in the backswing.

[Wormkiller]

9 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

No, I don't think it's natural. If you want to figure out what is "natural" in a golf swing, just go to the range and watch all the duffers. You'll see "natural" in spades. OTT, stall/flip, lateral weight slide rather than shift/turn/shift/turn, staying back on the right foot, EE, etc. And that'll be the "good" players you see lol... And you'll see a whole lot of players who try to "fire" the hips, or they're spinning the hips, or doing all sorts of other screwy things because they've heard discussions in the English language of what the body is supposed to do, but really don't understand what that actually means.

 

So yeah, I don't think it's natural at all.

 

As for your second question, sure. I've played golf since before I was 10 (I'm 43 now). During my teens and some times later, I have actually taken lessons, and during those teen years I was pretty big into golf (although never played competitively). I was one of those teens with a "Golf Digest" subscription; not my dad's mind you, I ordered it for myself! I had a pretty solid swing; managed to be on plane, had an in->out path, wasn't OTT, and when I was hitting well, it was a beautiful draw. I was never particularly good, but largely it was because golf was an intermittent hobby for me, not something I actually devoted practice time or played enough to be good.

 

I spent some years away from the game and came back last summer during COVID. I decided I was at a point in my life where I could actually devote some time and work to trying to get halfway decent at this sport. So I found GolfWRX. And I uploaded some swings to the swing video forum here...

 

At which point I learned that I had a stall/flip and early extension. My hips returned to only square at impact. I was NOT rotating through.

 

So I got to researching how to fix it. And I tried, and tried, and researched, and realized with additional video that I was making absolutely ZERO progress based on internet instruction.

 

So in March, I went to see Monte. In about 5 minutes he diagnosed what was wrong and we spent the rest of an hour working on how to fix it. I've been working on those drills since. So I'm 4 months in, and I'm finally getting there. That's how hard of a battle it is to ingrain this motion. 

 

The real key was that during the lesson I had a total "light bulb" moment. With what we were working on, I had one swing where I felt my hips and lower body do what they were supposed to do. And it clicked--part of my problem was that I previously had NO reference point for what my body was supposed to do so I wasn't doing it. Once I got that feel into my mind, I knew the difference between the right way and the wrong way.

 

As for the fix, I'm sure that for each person it's different. But what I think may be helpful is the method for working through it... Don't work on it through full-speed swings. Monte told me to basically hit 70-80 yard 7i shots while working on it, and only intersperse full swings maybe every 4th or 5th ball. And he was right. I would use video to monitor my progress. On the partial swings, I'd see the right move occurring. On the full swings, I was doing the old move that my body was comfortable with. It literally took months for the right movement to start creeping into the full swings. 

 

As for where I am now? I'm getting much more open at impact, but I'm still having some EE problems. I still have too much of a lateral slide and although I get off my right side, I think I do it too late so I get the weight onto the outside of the left foot but never get it back to the heel and push that left hip back enough. So that's what I'm working on; getting the weight onto the left foot a little earlier and then using the left foot to push the left hip back... Another few more months, and I'll get it 😉

 

The truth for you, though, is that unless you have some major physical impediment, you CAN fix this. Maybe you won't be as open as some tour pros, but I'm sure you can be a lot better than you are today. Feel free to view my improvement thread if you want to see the sort of progress I've made and read the whole story. 

Thanks for the excellent advice, will check out your thread. 

[Wormkiller]

7 hours ago, glk said:

You have several items that stall your rotation.

 

setup up with butt too far back. Hips need to be aligned with ankles. Thanks, will work on this.

 

In the backswing you bring your pelvis toward the ball instead of maintaining or slightly increasing the distance.  Result is when your right hip start in downswing then you start standing up which stalls rotation. So aim to keep the butt back throughout the swing? Perhaps using a chair behind me and staying on that?

 

Club face gets open in backswing and you never close it in transition or downswing so body stalls so arms can swing past and square the face. Never been told this. I've been told previously I'm too closed, and had a lesson to address my grip not long ago, as I was hitting big hooks and overdraws.

 

shaft gets steep in transition which also leads to stall. I've been told that this is a result of poor rotation in the first place, hence the focus on improving my hip rotation. Chicken and the egg - which comes first?

 

need to address these since each on their own will stall rotation.

Thanks for the advice. Please see responses in bold. 

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, Wormkiller said:

Believe me, Im trying..

 

Do you think consciously coming up on my right toes will help?

 

It's a big move involving the entire lower right side and will feel really huge to you since you have virtually zero lower body mass getting into the ball. 

 

Get a rope from your garage and loop it around something on the ground and practice this drill. Drop the rope occasionally and allow the lower body to swing the upper body and arms, you'll quickly get a feel for what the lower body is doing. 

 

 

There is a lot more to the swing than this but this is a good primer for the pivot. You have to know how to use the hands and how to blend the hand action to the pivot and how to swing the left shoulder, arm, shaft and club face on the proper plane to be able to get a running start to the golf ball. 

 

[Wormkiller]

8 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Regarding kids throwing things I didn't mean to imply that the first time they try they will have a natural movement. However, given enough time and no instruction they will get it. Kids have been throwing things as long as man has walked the earth. For that matter monkeys can throw too it's not difficult.

 

As far as the sandbag example, again it may take some time but after any length of time the body will adjust I promise you. 

 

I would recommend throwing tires to ingrain a natural feel of what I'm talking about. Just remember don't think about it or you will hurt the bodies own natural ability to have the muscles work together.

 

Also, from what I've noticed the guys that focus on complex and conscious movements of the hips and legs rarely get close to their max sustainable clubhead speed, plus if they are older like myself they will eventually hurt themselves.

I've got a very strong and accurate arm from playing a lot of baseball - never once have I ever been taught any throwing mechanics. All naturally learnt.

 

Why is the golf swing so mechanical and prescriptive? I've been intrigued with the idea of what Marcus Bell (Zen Golf) preaches in finding your natural swing as opposed to conforming with set agendas on club and body positioning when everyone's physiology and morphology is different, although I recognize there is common consistencies amongst good players (such as open hips at impact, set up). But other aspects like club face open/closed at the top, length of swing, grip - these all differ greatly amongst even among the best.

 

My current swing I'm hitting it more consistently and further than ever, even with the pause that I've been incorporating as part of the drill I've been doing to improve my takeaway. Shot my best round of 9 yesterday afternoon at my home course. I don't want to compromise my progress by overthinking too many technical aspects at this point of time. Its a matter of prioritising things to work on that will make the most difference.

[chipa]

1 minute ago, Wormkiller said:

I've got a very strong and accurate arm from playing a lot of baseball - never once have I ever been taught any throwing mechanics. All naturally learnt.

 

Why is the golf swing so mechanical and prescriptive? I've been intrigued with the idea of what Marcus Bell (Zen Golf) preaches in finding your natural swing as opposed to conforming with set agendas on club and body positioning when everyone's physiology and morphology is different, although I recognize there is common consistencies amongst good players (such as open hips at impact, set up). But other aspects like club face open/closed at the top, length of swing, grip - these all differ greatly amongst even among the best.

 

My current swing I'm hitting it more consistently and further than ever, even with the pause that I've been incorporating as part of the drill I've been doing to improve my takeaway. Shot my best round of 9 yesterday afternoon at my home course. I don't want to compromise my progress by overthinking too many technical aspects at this point of time. Its a matter of prioritising things to work on that will make the most difference.

 

Interestingly it's the baseball players that seem to be the better golfers in the amateur tournaments I've seen. In golf though we have to hold the club with both hands and this is confusing honestly. Nonethless, I think focusing on getting on your right side and remember speed comes from the loading and unloading of the flexible parts of the body may help, just like the big step in pitching. You could try throwing old tires until you are tired enough that the lower body starts getting involved naturally. Also, throwing old irons down the target line will help as well. If you are a right side dominant person like me I think we have more problems with mechanics because we want out right side to take over, but in golf we have to get into position first. I would work on your takeaway and grip so that you can get the shaft pointed back early and push from their to load the right side. This requires a left hand dominant takeaway, like Mike Austin and John Daly employ. When you get it right expect to bomb them way out there. 

[glk]

54 minutes ago, Wormkiller said:

Thanks for the advice. Please see responses in bold. 

On setup.    https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/

setup and hips/ pelvis.    https://www.instagram.com/p/CBvW0eIKnGd/

  Left knee to toes ( rotation will move it inward a little bit, right loses a few degrees of flex , maybe 10*,  and right butt cheek works up and around toward target.    
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBvW0eIKnGd/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHXvjO1gF4j/

from behind.   https://www.instagram.com/p/CKwb40rnf_b/
 

open face leads to hooks and blocks - late rapid closure of face.

wrists cchange in swing - trail wrists extends and lead hinges in backswing, in transition lead wrist is flexed( bowed) to close face - need face closing and shaft shallowed to set up conditions to have rotation .  Steep shaft in downswing is cause of stall not vice versa - to shallow club when steep,body stand up and straightens right arm early ( Charles Barkley old swing )

Two video addressing this

Dana addresses a number of items and helps golfer flex wrist in transitory later in video.

on shallowing and flexing wrist

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9upchvlBkK/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIRY1WoliAE/

 

lots of stuff here.  Best to find a teaching professional - makes their living solely from teaching.  Club pros are a crap shoot in finding a good instructor.  
 

online live or video if you cant find someone local.   People like these as well as those I posted videos from.

https://www.instagram.com/montescheinblum/?hl=en

https://www.instagram.com/athletic_motion_golf/?hl=en

https://www.instagram.com/shkeengolf/?hl=en

https://www.instagram.com/dancarraher/

 

good luck

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by glk

[dvq9654]

13 hours ago, Wormkiller said:

It’s frustrating - I have a life time playing sports requiring hip rotation - throwing in cricket and baseball, ground strokes in tennis, but with hitting a golf ball I can’t get them open at impact. I reckon it is because I’m so armsy, and because of compensations due to backswing going inside too much etc.

 

ive been working on not taking the club so far inside, getting more hip rotation in the backswing and not turning so flat. Here is a swing from a drill Ive been doing. I did this drill at the range and for some reason I’ve been hitting the ball further and more solidly pausing the backswing than doing a normal swing. Still hips are perpendicular to the target at impact. I realise posture at address still needs improving looking at this.

https://youtube.com/shorts/qvkyXMOeuFI?feature=share

 

You should take an online lesson with a good instructor.

 

That said, I don't know what drill you are working on, but that trail leg movement is a problem, in my opinion, as follows:

 

- Your hip movement in the back swing is contrived. You straighten your trail leg before the club reaches parallel in the backswing. This gives you zero chance to make an athletic move at the ball. Instead, start your backswing with your arms and then have the hips open as a reaction to taking it back. There is no definitive timing to when your hips should open, but since you seem to lock you hip out ASAP, you may want to feel like it takes longer for your trail hip to move. Then, as you get the club working back, you should have your trail hip work up, back and behind you as a somewhat natural reaction

- If you get into this position, which is a high right hip (not a locked out leg) and tilted shoulders, you should be able to start the downswing from there naturally

- In theory, depending on how the rest of your swing is positioned, your hips will open at least a little bit from there 

 

Get the backswing hip movement right and many other things will follow

Edited August 3, 2021 by dvq9654

[Wormkiller]

1 hour ago, dvq9654 said:

You should take an online lesson with a good instructor.

 

That said, I don't know what drill you are working on, but that trail leg movement is a problem, in my opinion, as follows:

 

- Your hip movement in the back swing is contrived. You straighten your trail leg before the club reaches parallel in the backswing. This gives you zero chance to make an athletic move at the ball. Instead, start your backswing with your arms and then have the hips open as a reaction to taking it back. There is no definitive timing to when your hips should open, but since you seem to lock you hip out ASAP, you may want to feel like it takes longer for your trail hip to move. Then, as you get the club working back, you should have your trail hip work up, back and behind you as a somewhat natural reaction

- If you get into this position, which is a high right hip (not a locked out leg) and tilted shoulders, you should be able to start the downswing from there naturally

- In theory, depending on how the rest of your swing is positioned, your hips will open at least a little bit from there 

 

Get the backswing hip movement right and many other things will follow

I've been told and read so many contradictions. I was told to straighten it as it was limiting my hip rotation in the backswing.

 

This was my swing two weeks ago prior to working on my takeaway.

 

 

 

 

This was my swing 2 weeks ago

Edited August 3, 2021 by Wormkiller

[chipa]

I just don't see how all this unnatural hip and leg manipulation will ever help one make a free flowing swing and maximize their clubhead speed. I wouldn't recommend it for people with back or knee problems, I've tried it I know.

 

Bradley Hughes says he believes Hogan was pushing off his right leg through impact, that's what I try to do naturally, but the only thoughts I have in that regard are to feel my right leg load sufficiently so that I can feel it pushing through impact, that's it nothing more. Even with my often poor mechanics and not too much shoulder turn I can swing my short driver at 110 mph at 56 and 5'6 and it doesn't bother my back or bad left knee.

[Wormkiller]

All in the side bend and the push/pull action according to Padraig. Great video.

 

 

[Nard_S]

Does not help that it's perceived as a ''rotation''. It's a linear, levered move that only supports (upper body) rotation. Big key is in the hinging. In my case, lead side lacked in that it fell towards ball too much and failed to step back and clear too little (hello OP). Holding tush line and clearing opened hips while holding depth away from ball line is a re-write that took effort & diligence to overcome. Feel like I'm 70% there and it's been about year. Easy to fall back, especially on the course. It's a fundamental tweak that changes swing a bunch.

[betarhoalphadelta]

9 hours ago, Wormkiller said:

I've been told and read so many contradictions. I was told to straighten it as it was limiting my hip rotation in the backswing.

 

This was my swing two weeks ago prior to working on my takeaway.

 

This was my swing 2 weeks ago

 

Did you at least buy the goat dinner first? 😉 

 

One thing that jumps out at me is posture at setup. You already have your butt way too far back. Essentially that almost forces you into early extension at impact (which you're doing) because there's no way to maintain that depth through the swing. 

 

The other thing I see is a classic [wrong] move. In the golf swing you should have two motions. Right hip back in the backswing, left hip back in the transition/downswing. Instead, you're moving the right hip forward in the transition/downswing. This also contributes to that early extension because you're moving your hips closer to the ball and you have to come out of posture to keep from driving the clubhead in the ground 2 feet behind the ball. 

 

Now, I'm not qualified to teach you anything about how to fix it--and as I mentioned, I had some of the same issues and I've been working on them for 4 months. 

 

But this is a good one to explain how the hips are supposed to move, and I think it covers BOTH of your issues with posture and the right hip movement:

 

 

 

[Wormkiller]

Did a bit of work this evening trying to keep my butt back more. Might be a bit more rotation going on. Maybe…

 

[Nels55]

If you are an upper core golfer you don't need your hips open much at impact:

 

[Wormkiller]

26 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

If you are an upper core golfer you don't need your hips open much at impact:

 

Be careful with the notion of the “Upper Core Swing”. Because you’re assuming that not all golfers should fit into the exact same cookie cutter mould regardless of natural variation in morphology. When obviously they do (unlike every other sport on the planet). 😝🤪