New irons, what am I missing?

[MyHandicapIsGolf]

Let me start by saying I'm 39 years old, play anywhere from a 4 to a 7 handicap over the last 3 years, and hit my 7 iron 175 yards with my distances pretty much going up and down 10 yards from there with my longer and shorter irons.  The current set I game are Ping iE1 irons, blue dot, with Steelfiber fc115 shafts and cut down 1/4".  Up until the start of this season I was using the stock CFS distance shafts but switched them out due to some preexisting back conditions and a nagging case of tennis elbow.  With the shaft change, I've noticed almost no performance changes, other than the shafts just feel smoother and my tennis elbow has gotten much better.   I love these irons, hit them well, but am always looking for an upgrade as they are starting to age and there are so many newer clubs that catch my eye.  I like to tinker, and have purchased quite a few sets of irons over the last few years, but always end up back with my iE1's.  

 

This brings me to my issue, I have been fit multiple times over the last 3 years at a few different places, and have spent 1000's of dollars on new iron sets, only to be disappointed when I actually start gaming them out on the course.  This started with a set of Ping i500's (set up with the same specs as my iE1's) I hit them well during the fitting and saw gains on the trackman in distance and launch angle, but once I got them out on the course I was hitting them 1 to 2 clubs shorter than my set of iE1's.  They lasted about a half a season for me before I sold them off and went back to the iE1's.  Next up I bought a set of Mizuno 919 tour irons, with Modus 105's, and saw similar gains in distance and launch angle on trackman, but hit them terrible when I gamed them out on the course for a few months.  I typically hit a draw, and was only able to hit weak fades with the Mizunos, after a few months of them I couldn't get back to my iE1's quick enough.  As soon as I switched back to the iE1's I was back hitting my draw and saw my distances return immediately.  My most recent failed venture into improving my irons happened this spring.  I went to Club Champion and was fit for a set of Srixon ZX5's, I loved the look of the clubs, saw massive gains on the trackman, and felt these would finally be the clubs that would replace my iE1's.  I wound up sinking over 2k into a new set, complete with Oban shafts (pured) and set up to my usual specs.  After waiting way too long to get my new irons I was left disappointed once again by the performance of my clubs on the course, as compared to my existing set of iE1's.  

 

So my question is what am I missing?  How is it that I can see gains in my fittings, purchase custom fit clubs that bring new and superior tech over my existing set, yet nothing outperforms my old set of iE1's?  I'm sure the answer is I should probably just stop tinkering and keep playing my preferred set, but I'm wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar.  Is there something I should be focused on moving forward when evaluation a new set, is there a specific data point I should focus on, is there something in the swing weight of my existing set that trumps everything else I've tried? 

 

Thanks for reading my novel, any advice would be greatly appreciated.  

[ChipNRun]

6 hours ago, MyHandicapIsGolf said:

Is there something I should be focused on moving forward when evaluation a new set, is there a specific data point I should focus on, is there something in the swing weight of my existing set that trumps everything else I've tried?

 

With your dedication to the game, start taking notes on the characteristics of the clubs. Which ones work, which ones don't? Specific points, across different manufacturers:

• What head designs seem to work? GI cavity-backs? Irons with beveled soles?
• What is your shaft band? This means, which shafts seem to show up frequently on the rough fittings, and feel good when you hit them. A few years back, my shaft band seemed to be NS Pro 8950GH or 950, KBS Tour 90 or 105, Recoil 95. (I'm 70 now, and shafts are sub90- grams in graphite... newest lineup taking shape).
• Post fitting: do fitters give you tweaks to fine tune

And, back to head design: 

6 hours ago, MyHandicapIsGolf said:

The current set I game are Ping iE1 irons, blue dot, with Steelfiber fc115 shafts and cut down 1/4"...

 

A bit of Ping background: In 2015, Ping had a shake-up in its long-standing iron families. It retired the G25 with G iron, the i25 with the i irons. In the S-series finale, the S55 gave way to the iBlade.

 

The iE1 got rated as a "better player cavity backed irons," while the iBlade were described as a players iron with heavier sole weighting to improve launch. In a comparison video, Mark Crossfield hit both irons. His Trackman numbers were pretty much identical, except the iBlade got more spin.

 

Skip a couple of generations, and we get the hollow-headed distance iron the i500. Ping promos describe it as a cross between the i210 (better player's cavity) and the G700 (game improvement).  In an odd comparison, one outside reviewer remarked the i500 goes just as far as the G700, but is not as easy to hit.

 

A couple of years back, golf shops often had a used set or two of i500 irons up for sale.

 

So, the iE1 and the i500 are rather different clubheads. And, if you're hitting the SteelFiber fc115s in the iE1s, you have enough action through the ball you don't need the i500s. As you noted, "but once I got them (i500s) out on the course I was hitting them 1 to 2 clubs shorter than my set of iE1's." Probably too much launch from the hollow heads.

 

Our GolfWRX crew has generated a couple of threads on the i500 irons. Possibly comments from them on what you found?

Edited August 2, 2021 by ChipNRun

[Barfolomew]

It's the grips..... most underrated part of a club. 

 

You know how tires are important cause they're the only part of the car that touches the road....

[Nessism]

This post should be pinned as a warning against throwing blind faith into a store fitting.  I'm NOT a fan of that approach of club fitting for a better player.

 

My advice is to YES, keep your iE1's.  Maybe pick up a used set of i200/i210's and install some shafts you like and try those.  Small changes, not big ones.  Slowly iterate, no step function changes. 

[TyNiles]

What you’re describing is basically what happened to me this year.
Rewind a bit, and in college I played MP64’s - C Taper X flex. They were my bread and butter until they started taking a toll on my hand which pushed me to surgery (amongst other things, of course) so I sold them. 
I hadn’t been playing much up until last year so I was using a set of AP2’s and then last spring I tried out the t100s and it was love at first swing. They were not the longest irons I’ve hit. They might not be the straightest. But I LOVED them.
Fast forward to this past winter, and I do the logical thing and decide to get fit since I played over 100 rounds last year. (our local fitter is meh, but it was on a trackman so I went with it) The P770 and 921 forged were going significantly further, with better dispersion as well. I had the PX LZ in the t100s and the fitting called for KBS Tour 120. So I buy the P770’s. Mediocre on the course with them. Multiple rounds too. I buy a set of 921 forged on here. Same thing. I’ve been through at least 3/4 other iron sets this summer and guess what I’m using again? T100s. I think YouTube channels such as TXG (who I watch religiously and love their content BTW) force us into thinking that every part of golf equipment is explainable and a math equation. Sometimes you just have to hit what feels good to you regardless of anything else. Play with whatever clubs feel like give you the best chance to go low and enjoy the round. We’ve all been there. Best of luck!

[DaveMc82]

If you’re not hitting from grass with the ball you play your rounds with, a ‘fitting’ is nothing more than a pointless sales exercise IMHO.
 

I shall await my due flaming for daring to say it but hitting from mats especially with range balls is akin to thinking that your date after 6 hours of professional makeup and shaping undergarments looks like that naturally! 
 

If I was demoing an iron I’d want a 4, 7 and PW to hit on a grass practice area or take them out round a course. Hit one-for-one comparison shots vs current gamers and draw conclusions from this. 
 

The likelihood is that you’d benefit from finding the clubhead that brings your launch down to the right window and controls spin. Once you have this find the softest shaft possible that gives you the correct dispersion. 
 

The reason I say softest shaft is that you mentioned the Mizunos and only being able to fade them. I’d wager decent money the shafts were too stout and your ‘course swing’ wasn’t the fitting bay grooved get it out there swing. They could easily have been the right clubhead with the wrong shaft!

 

Your numbers and index suggest you don’t need help from the clubhead i.e. you’re long enough and accurate enough already. Look at clubheads that don’t give so much help with launch. The ZX7s or T100 or Apex Pro/MB are some examples I’d start at. Couple these with softer shafts even down to regular flex. 


 

 

[DHoch]

I’m sort of relieved to see so many people are having this issue too.  I’ve been experimenting with equipment a lot over the past year or so, and feel like I’m a lot worse off for doing so. 
 

This is one thing I like about the direct to consumer companies: you can demo things ahead of time, and not get stuck with clubs that don’t work for you, and then have to suffer the hassle of selling off.

[RogerinNewZealand]

IE1 are like a new generation,so you really need a fine tune,now that may be regrip,+- half a degree lie angle and say plus 2 or 3 grams lead tape per club with a Trusted Coach. The clubs are close to Superb....Club Champion and Obans...thats a recurring nightmare on here!

[NPSpar4]

8 hours ago, Nessism said:

This post should be pinned as a warning against throwing blind faith into a store fitting.  I'm NOT a fan of that approach of club fitting for a better player.

 

My advice is to YES, keep your iE1's.  Maybe pick up a used set of i200/i210's and install some shafts you like and try those.  Small changes, not big ones.  Slowly iterate, no step function changes. 

Nessism is 100% on point.  Your issue seems to be with this store fittings.  What your experiencing indoors on a mat is not translating to the course where turf interaction is KING, imo.    I have had same issue with the srixons.  They perform

indoors and on mats but they dont feel right on actual grass where it matters.   You def need to get a fitting outdoors & then see what iron prevails.   And like others have said, if those Pings are your bread n butter, then make only small changes without straying too far from those iron characteristics. I def get that Its tough to stay with those irons when so many sweet new models keep coming out…..  GL

[Itsjustagame]

The only way I know if a new club (driver, putter, irons) is going to work for me is to play them on the golf course for a month.

[North Butte]

A store "fitting" in my opinion is good for eliminating irons you're not going to like. I can certainly notice an immediate dislike for certain models after whacking a half-dozen 7-irons off the mat into the net. Or even if they seem OK to swing, if they are obviously (on the launch monitor) not launching normally or staying online they're not worth wasting any time on. 

 

Bur for finding out if a set is better than what you're already got, DaveMc82 and Itsjustagame have it right. You've got to hit them off grass on the golf course preferably while you're actually playing golf and keeping score to know if they're genuinely better or not. 

[Hat Trick]

I have two simple points...

 

First, I always get fit outside on grass so i can see my ball flight.  I want my eye test to match the numbers the trackman is spitting out and feel the club on grass.

 

Second, irons are for accuracy and not distance.  I want to be able to hit greens.  In fact irons that go farther only cause troubles at the short end of the bag with gapping.  "I'm hitting my PW 150" means to me that I have to figure out 0-150 yards with the most important shots - to me that makes life harder.

[Juiceboxguy42]

If you really like you’re Ie1 irons just get them retrofit. Make sure the loft and lie angles work for you and that you have good gapping and call it a day. 

[MyHandicapIsGolf]

I appreciate all the responses here, and good to know that I'm not alone in my experiences.  It sounds to me like there's definitely something to the process of swinging clubs off the mats vs putting them in play on the turf during an actual round of golf.  The problem for me in being able to "demo" clubs is that I'm a lefty, so not too many places are going to have anything to demo laying around.  Someone mentioned grips, and I can say that is definitely not the problem.  I've been through at least 5 different sets of grips on my iE1's, and have gone from standard, to undersized, and back to standard again.  

 

I guess the thing that still confuses me is how I can change out grips, shafts, ect on my iE1's and always hit them consistently well yet every new set of clubs that I've bought I hit shorter and with worse dispersions.  I'm not necessarily looking for irons that I can hit further, ideally I'd like something that I hit better.  What I'm searching for is a set that I can hit higher, longer or the same distances, with more stopping power on the greens.  Ideally I'd find something that I can high straighter as well, as my typical ball flight with the iE1's is a draw with my big misses being a pull hook.  My never ending search for a superior set of clubs will no doubt continue, but I think moving forward I'll be more cautious about what I buy and only look for options to be fit where I can hit balls on turf on an actual range.  

 

Thanks again for all the feedback. 

[dbleag]

22 hours ago, MyHandicapIsGolf said:

So my question is what am I missing? 

I'm not sure you're missing anything.

 

Maybe you should be overjoyed that you've found your own personal "Holy Grail" of irons.

[wam78]

It could be something as simple as sole design and the weighting (swing weight) of the club.  Some people it does not effect and others it can effect them a great deal.

 

I’m pretty sensitive to sole designs and how the club either grabs the turf or glides.  It makes all the difference in the world for my feels and delivery.

 

As mentioned above, either getting your hands on a demo set to take to the course or getting a used 7i of an iron you really want to try and get some turf on it.  See your ball flight outside to make sure it hits your windows and see how it reacts on a green.  Can you feel the ball compress how you like it.  Does it sound right outside.  All these things I take into consideration.

[nvr3putt]

22 hours ago, MyHandicapIsGolf said:

is there something in the swing weight of my existing set that trumps everything else I've tried? 

 

I will venture to say that your brain is 'tuned' to swing best with irons that have a certain 'total mass' and distribution of said mass (swing weight).

 

A D2 swing weight in a heavy club (P7MB head + DG X7 shaft) will feel very different from that in a Ping G425 with graphite shafts.

 

Perhaps you should try to find a club head that matches your current iE1s and similar weighted shafts. 

 

My guess is that more recent club heads are much heavier because of increased MOI.

 

PS. If you don't need the ZX5s, I gladly take them off your hands. 😁

[Itsjustagame]

1 hour ago, MyHandicapIsGolf said:

I appreciate all the responses here, and good to know that I'm not alone in my experiences.  It sounds to me like there's definitely something to the process of swinging clubs off the mats vs putting them in play on the turf during an actual round of golf.  The problem for me in being able to "demo" clubs is that I'm a lefty, so not too many places are going to have anything to demo laying around.  Someone mentioned grips, and I can say that is definitely not the problem.  I've been through at least 5 different sets of grips on my iE1's, and have gone from standard, to undersized, and back to standard again.  

 

I guess the thing that still confuses me is how I can change out grips, shafts, ect on my iE1's and always hit them consistently well yet every new set of clubs that I've bought I hit shorter and with worse dispersions.  I'm not necessarily looking for irons that I can hit further, ideally I'd like something that I hit better.  What I'm searching for is a set that I can hit higher, longer or the same distances, with more stopping power on the greens.  Ideally I'd find something that I can high straighter as well, as my typical ball flight with the iE1's is a draw with my big misses being a pull hook.  My never ending search for a superior set of clubs will no doubt continue, but I think moving forward I'll be more cautious about what I buy and only look for options to be fit where I can hit balls on turf on an actual range.  

 

Thanks again for all the feedback. 

Lot's of ways to demo clubs at little/no cost. Callaway Preowned and Sub 70 for instance.

If all else fails I just buy something that interests me, and sell it if it doesn't work out.

[North Butte]

5 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

Lot's of ways to demo clubs at little/no cost. Callaway Preowned and Sub 70 for instance.

If all else fails I just buy something that interests me, and sell it if it doesn't work out.

And there's the Global Golf UTRY program which is pretty nice. Costs $25 for one club or $50 for a set of irons. You get a couple weeks to try them and send them back if you don't want to buy.

 

I'd consider $50 spent to play 3-4 rounds of golf with a full set of clubs to be infinitely better value for money than spending $75-$100 (or more) on an hour spent hitting 7-irons on a launch monitor in a fitting.

 

Any of these demo programs presume you already know basically what suits you. In OP's case it should be something not totally unlike the current Ping irons and the shaft that's in them. A demo like that might be premature if you went far afield and tried a totally different category of clubhead and a very different weight shaft. 

[Nessism]

3 hours ago, Itsjustagame said:

The only way I know if a new club (driver, putter, irons) is going to work for me is to play them on the golf course for a month.

 

This should be pinned here too!  

 

Fittings are just a snapshot in time.  But the true measure of clubs come over time with usage.

[boggyman]

So many fittings gone bad on here. Why not just keep playing the iE1s until they are worn out beings you like and play them so well? I like you have spent God only knows, only to come back to a set of W/S blades that were last produced in the mid 80s. Even have a spare set of them. By all means, if your able to afford to tinker, then tinker, or ya might want to consider relinquishing your WRX status. To me, it’s a hobby, and like any other,  and as long as I can afford to tinker, I will from time to time but am real close to giving up on tinkering and just play and enjoy the game. I stuck to the WS I mentioned last year and dropped my HC several points in that process. Personally, I’d find a spare set of the iE1s and just enjoy the game! Good luck!! 

[boggyman]

2 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

This should be pinned here too!  

 

Fittings are just a snapshot in time.  But the true measure of clubs come over time with usage.

Very true!!

[DaveMc82]

4 hours ago, MyHandicapIsGolf said:

I appreciate all the responses here, and good to know that I'm not alone in my experiences.  It sounds to me like there's definitely something to the process of swinging clubs off the mats vs putting them in play on the turf during an actual round of golf.  The problem for me in being able to "demo" clubs is that I'm a lefty, so not too many places are going to have anything to demo laying around.  Someone mentioned grips, and I can say that is definitely not the problem.  I've been through at least 5 different sets of grips on my iE1's, and have gone from standard, to undersized, and back to standard again.  

 

I guess the thing that still confuses me is how I can change out grips, shafts, ect on my iE1's and always hit them consistently well yet every new set of clubs that I've bought I hit shorter and with worse dispersions.  I'm not necessarily looking for irons that I can hit further, ideally I'd like something that I hit better.  What I'm searching for is a set that I can hit higher, longer or the same distances, with more stopping power on the greens.  Ideally I'd find something that I can high straighter as well, as my typical ball flight with the iE1's is a draw with my big misses being a pull hook.  My never ending search for a superior set of clubs will no doubt continue, but I think moving forward I'll be more cautious about what I buy and only look for options to be fit where I can hit balls on turf on an actual range.  

 

Thanks again for all the feedback. 

You say your ball flight is a draw- what kind of start direction do you have? The reason I ask is that it may be a simple lie angle adjustment required to make them perfect or even a swingweight/shaft weight adjustment. 
 

It’s also interesting that you mention wanting more height. I’d hazard that increasing your spin without increasing your launch may be more beneficial. Not only will it give you more stopping power but it will also stabilize flight and reduce the curvature. 
 

What have the salespeople (fitters) aimed for to optimize sets for you? Is it spin and launch or have they concentrated on ball speed and carry? I’m just curious as I always find balls hit off mats on a monitor come off like flyers with distinctly low spin and carry miles.
 

Also critically the mats hide fat strikes meaning you can be hitting those clubs great until you get on turf. Off turf you get the slightly fat balls that fly nowhere or the snaggy steep pull draws/hooks. I’d rather demo irons out of a fairway bunker than off a mat!

[fj_magni]

Another interesting factoid, that might just be a myth I read about IE1s.

Out of the I series the IE1s are the only one of the series that is made with new "softer" steel. But the IE1s are NOT hydropearl plated like the 200s and 210s. Because it does not have the plating, the IE1s can be sent back to ping to be refinished. 

They come back looking brand new.   They can even blast the badges so there is no more blue bar.

I always though that was cool, went with I200s though. More stock shafts options. 

[North Butte]

13 minutes ago, DaveMc82 said:

snaggy steep pull draws/hooks. I’d rather demo irons out of a fairway bunker than off a mat!

If I were a rapper my rap name would be "Snaggy Steep Pull Draws". 

[MyHandicapIsGolf]

1 hour ago, DaveMc82 said:

You say your ball flight is a draw- what kind of start direction do you have? The reason I ask is that it may be a simple lie angle adjustment required to make them perfect or even a swingweight/shaft weight adjustment. 
 

It’s also interesting that you mention wanting more height. I’d hazard that increasing your spin without increasing your launch may be more beneficial. Not only will it give you more stopping power but it will also stabilize flight and reduce the curvature. 
 

What have the salespeople (fitters) aimed for to optimize sets for you? Is it spin and launch or have they concentrated on ball speed and carry? I’m just curious as I always find balls hit off mats on a monitor come off like flyers with distinctly low spin and carry miles.
 

Also critically the mats hide fat strikes meaning you can be hitting those clubs great until you get on turf. Off turf you get the slightly fat balls that fly nowhere or the snaggy steep pull draws/hooks. I’d rather demo irons out of a fairway bunker than off a mat!

As a lefty my start direction is usually slightly left of target on a well struck shot with about 10-15 yards of curvature back to the right.  Most of my fittings have centered around spin, launch, and dispersion with ball speed and carry being a secondary data point.  I've gone into my fittings by setting the expectation that I am not necessarily looking for something that adds distance, but something that I can launch easier and hit more accurately.  

Edited August 3, 2021 by MyHandicapIsGolf

[Pepperturbo]

On 8/2/2021 at 7:53 AM, MyHandicapIsGolf said:

This brings me to my issue, I have been fit multiple times over the last 3 years at a few different places, and have spent 1000's of dollars on new iron sets, only to be disappointed when I actually start gaming them out on the course. 

Multiple fittings over 3yrs suggest you don't believe what you're fitted into, so you keep looking for the holy grail irons that will miraculously improve your game without hard work. 

 

Launch easier = softer/different shaft profile, more accurate = more forgiving head.  When anyone gets to single digit, IMO, making progress and being happy is NO longer based on the equipment, but their thinking process and expectations are getting in the way of progress. 

[A.Princey]

Once you find really good performance from certain irons, I don’t think you can really find something a whole lot better, given their intended purpose. If you hit them the desired distance and have good dispersion, new irons won’t really “outperform” the old ones. Your physical limitations and skill level already cause the smallest misses in the first place, so trying to improve upon your equipment is limited by the users “margin of error” and not the equipment itself. 

Imagine shooting a gun, at some point ones level of steadiness, breathing, and aim cannot improve beyond a certain accuracy and distance. Upgrading the gun itself or the sights, may make the gun a slightly better performer for a robotic test, but that improvement is often so much smaller than the user’s margin of error that any gains could be completely negligible(or worse due to operator variables). Ymmv.

[Pepperturbo]

1 minute ago, A.Princey said:

Imagine shooting a gun, at some point ones level of steadiness, breathing, and aim cannot improve beyond a certain accuracy and distance. Upgrading the gun itself or the sights, may make the gun a slightly better performer for a robotic test, but that improvement is often so much smaller than the user’s margin of error that any gains could be completely negligible(or worse due to operator variables). Ymmv.

As 600m+ shooter during my youth, I agree.  My LD skills have since deteriorated somewhat.  However, Tracking Point's new computerized scopes can guide the user to center-mass, despite poor aiming and measuring.  Today, Marines are pushing for live steaming on sniper rifles as they seek the next generation rifle to replace the M4... it's going to make non-shooters into shooters.

[TiScape]

42 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

As 600m+ shooter during my youth, I agree.  My LD skills have since deteriorated somewhat.  However, Tracking Point's new computerized scopes can guide the user to center-mass, despite poor aiming and measuring.  Today, Marines are pushing for live steaming on sniper rifles as they seek the next generation rifle to replace the M4... it's going to make non-shooters into shooters.

Whoa. This technology is pretty amazing. I’m a firearms enthusiast, and had never heard of it.