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Another player hit my ball before I could get to it.


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This did not actually happen to me, but has happened to one of my daughters and another girl today in a high school round.

 

Instance one (my daughter):  Drive at the edge of the fairway.  While waiting on playing partners to hit their second shot, another group of players come into the fairway, do not identify the ball, and hit it.  By the time my daughter gets up there, ball has already been hit and no where to be found.  Everyone knew where the ball was.  Played it as lost ball rule, went back to the tee box.

 

Instance two (today):  Second shot on par 5 into parallel fairway.  Another player on that hole hits the ball without identifying it into a creek.  Everyone saw the ball at rest, another group confirmed someone hit from that spot.

 

How do the rules protect players in instances like this?  Seems harsh to penalize a player for something they did not do against the rules. 

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This situation is covered by Rule 9.6.

 

9.6 Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence
If it is known or virtually certain that an outside influence (including another player in
stroke play or another ball) lifted or moved a player’s ball:
•• There is no penalty, and
•• The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be
estimated) (see Rule 14.2).
This applies whether or not the player’s ball has been found.
But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball was lifted or moved by an
outside influence and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief
under Rule 18.2.

 

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8 minutes ago, jvincent said:

This situation is covered by Rule 9.6.

 

9.6 Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence
If it is known or virtually certain that an outside influence (including another player in
stroke play or another ball) lifted or moved a player’s ball:
•• There is no penalty, and
•• The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be
estimated) (see Rule 14.2).
This applies whether or not the player’s ball has been found.
But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball was lifted or moved by an
outside influence and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief
under Rule 18.2.

 

 

And if you look in the 'Definitions' under 'Known or Virtually Certain' you will see that a 95% level of certainty meets that definition ( not a particularly high standard in my mind). 

 

dave

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Thanks.  All of my searches never turned up this rule but found rules about balls hitting other balls (knowing the words to search rules sometimes is tough).

 

The situation today would have been very certain.  Group A (group hitting the ball) all saw the ball at rest.  Group B (middle group) all saw a player not in Group A hit a ball from that general area.  

 

One of the coaches (this was a high school tournament) asked the player who hit the ball if they identified it before playing, and the player confirmed he did not.  I'm glad we got the rule right for that one.

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2 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

And if you look in the 'Definitions' under 'Known or Virtually Certain' you will see that a 95% level of certainty meets that definition ( not a particularly high standard in my mind). 

 

dave

So you must think the golfer whom the ball belongs to must be the one to see the outside agency move or lift their ball?

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44 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

So you must think the golfer whom the ball belongs to must be the one to see the outside agency move or lift their ball?

 

The question the player (or a referee) must ask of himself is, "Could the ball be anywhere else?"

 

If the answer is no, then it's likely that KVC is applicable.

 

If the answer is yes, then, after three minutes of search without finding the ball, we have a lost ball.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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This is a pet peeve of mine. I never pick up balls at a course.  I’ve had several driven into adjoining rough or another fairway picked up by an unscrupulous player coming up the next hole.  

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When my daughter played HS golf she carried the small paperback rules book in her bag and she kept up on rules that came into play.  Helped her in more than a few situations and helped other players and/or protected the field in a few others over the years.  It's never too early for players to take responsibility for knowing the rules.

 

She actually had a coach come up to her at a tee box before she hit her drive on a hole in a meet and question her having her alignment sticks in her bag and he had a little trouble being told very nicely twice that there was no issue and took a couple minutes for him to go away and leave her alone.  Was completely inappropriate - he wasn't allowed to approach players that weren't "his" and not how a rules situation was to be handled if he thought there was one (he wasn't allowed to assert any rules claims). Anyway, she was a little ticked and birdied the hole and that gave her a little satisfaction.  Same idiot the next year tried to interrupt play (totally inappropriate) because she had teed off and was possibly OB, played a provisional, the provisional hadn't yet reached where she thought she might be out and she hit it again, then she went over and forward in search of her original ball, which she found in play, and good to go.  He thought the mere fact she hit the provisional twice meant she was stuck with it (fortunately her coach stopped any interference and she didn't even know it was happening).  Guy was a complete moron but not above messing with other players if he could get away with it.  So again, never too early for the kids to learn the rules and take ownership of that for any number of reasons.  Still recall watching her patiently and diplomatically explain to another player who had two other girls convinced she could take "line of flight" relief back from a hazard and into the fairway, lol, that it wasn't going to work that way.  And there were times rules helped another player and she was happy to help out if asked.

 

Long story short, the rules protect players the most when the players learn and know the rules!

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hawkeye77
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10 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

This is a pet peeve of mine. I never pick up balls at a course.  I’ve had several driven into adjoining rough or another fairway picked up by an unscrupulous player coming up the next hole.  

When we played Torrey South (not boasting, it's just where this last happened to me) a few years ago some jackwagon from the adjacent hole (I think we were on 9, he was on 15) hit my ball which was in the rough between the two holes.  Happened so fast and we hadn't walked too far off the tee so didn't even have a chance to yell or whistle.  And he was off!  Sure enough found a crap ball within about 10 yards of where mine was.  My dad and my daughter agreed with my replacing a ball to the spot where it had been pilfered and no penalty (lol, my dad wouldn't have cared if I'd actually just lost my ball and tossed one down, but that's beside the point).

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22 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

When my daughter played HS golf she carried the small paperback rules book in her bag and she kept up on rules that came into play.  Helped her in more than a few situations and helped other players and/or protected the field in a few others over the years.  It's never too early for players to take responsibility for knowing the rules.

 

She actually had a coach come up to her at a tee box before she hit her drive on a hole in a meet and question her having her alignment sticks in her bag and he had a little trouble being told very nicely twice that there was no issue and took a couple minutes for him to go away and leave her alone.  Was completely inappropriate - he wasn't allowed to approach players that weren't "his" and not how a rules situation was to be handled if he thought there was one (he wasn't allowed to assert any rules claims). Anyway, she was a little ticked and birdied the hole and that gave her a little satisfaction.  Same idiot the next year tried to interrupt play (totally inappropriate) because she had teed off and was possibly OB, played a provisional, the provisional hadn't yet reached where she thought she might be out and she hit it again, then she went over and forward in search of her original ball, which she found in play, and good to go.  He thought the mere fact she hit the provisional twice meant she was stuck with it (fortunately her coach stopped any interference and she didn't even know it was happening).  Guy was a complete moron but not above messing with other players if he could get away with it.  So again, never too early for the kids to learn the rules and take ownership of that for any number of reasons.  Still recall watching her patiently and diplomatically explain to another player who had two other girls convinced she could take "line of flight" relief back from a hazard and into the fairway, lol, that it wasn't going to work that way.  And there were times rules helped another player and she was happy to help out if asked.

 

Long story short, the rules protect players the most when the players learn and know the rules!

 

 

 

 

 

Looking back, I realize I was very lucky with my HS golf coach.  He was the assistant basketball coach, too, and I guess he saved his hardnose stuff for that.  We went out and played golf and may the best man win.  He really didn't care if we won or lost as long as it was an honest game.  He cared about ethics and playing the right way.  And he got free golf along with us.  I assume coaches don't play these days.  Although, high school golf was the one time I cheated at golf.  Not happy about that 40 years later.  

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Just now, LeoLeo99 said:

 

Looking back, I realize I was very lucky with my HS golf coach.  He was the assistant basketball coach, too, and I guess he saved his hardnose stuff for that.  We went out and played golf and may the best man win.  He really didn't care if we won or lost as long as it was an honest game.  He cared about ethics and playing the right way.  And he got free golf along with us.  I assume coaches don't play these days.  Although, high school golf was the one time I cheated at golf.  Not happy about that 40 years later.  

My daughter was lucky - her coach was great. Boys coach when I was in HS was a complete rockhead. 

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On 8/5/2021 at 9:09 PM, oikos1 said:

So you must think the golfer whom the ball belongs to must be the one to see the outside agency move or lift their ball?

 

I am not sure that I understand the question. But if some 'reliable source' said 'I saw one of those guys over there hit your ball' - that could be the evidence behind the KVC judgment. 

 

dave

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On 8/5/2021 at 9:58 PM, sui generis said:

 

The question the player (or a referee) must ask of himself is, "Could the ball be anywhere else?"

 

If the answer is no, then it's likely that KVC is applicable.

 

If the answer is yes, then, after three minutes of search without finding the ball, we have a lost ball.

 

I don't think that is strictly true. If a ball could be in the pond if it bounced off the 150 yard marker  (concrete disk in the ground) and then off the 130 yard sprinkler head, if there were possible outside agency involvement I would not rule that out simply because of the non-zero probability of the yard marker/sprinkler head bounce. 

 

dave

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34 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I am not sure that I understand the question. But if some 'reliable source' said 'I saw one of those guys over there hit your ball' - that could be the evidence behind the KVC judgment. 

 

dave

I may be misunderstanding your post.  You seemed to indicate that a 95% level of certainty meets the definition of KVC and that "was not a particularly high standard" in your mind.  100% certainty could only mean the golfer actual saw the event, so what's the difference between 95-100% that would make it a higher standard?

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2 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

I may be misunderstanding your post.  You seemed to indicate that a 95% level of certainty meets the definition of KVC and that "was not a particularly high standard" in your mind.  100% certainty could only mean the golfer actual saw the event, so what's the difference between 95-100% that would make it a higher standard?

 

In the 95% case you are WRONG 1 out of 20 times. In the 100% case you are never wrong. 

 

dave

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43 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

The question the player (or a referee) must ask of himself is, "Could the ball be anywhere else?"

 

Next time you attend a PGA/USGA Rules Workshop, ask them if this is not THE question. 😉

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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On 8/5/2021 at 6:59 PM, bladehunter said:

This is a pet peeve of mine. I never pick up balls at a course.  I’ve had several driven into adjoining rough or another fairway picked up by an unscrupulous player coming up the next hole.  

 

I believe that the rules should allow a player to use a Taser on any other person picking up a golf ball other than their own anywhere on the golf course.

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13 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Next time you attend a PGA/USGA Rules Workshop, ask them if this is not THE question. 😉

 

I assume that you are not saying that given the situation of (as an example) a ball that cannot be found and the only explanations that can be conceived are that the dog that ran across the fairway (a dog known in the area to steal balls) took it or it bounced off the yard marker and off the sprinkler head into the pond - call it a 1 in 10,000 chance), the fact that the 1 in 10,000 chance exists (Answer to the question 'could the ball be somewhere else' is 'yes') does not mean that it is a lost ball. 

 

dave

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18 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I assume that you are not saying that given the situation of (as an example) a ball that cannot be found and the only explanations that can be conceived are that the dog that ran across the fairway (a dog known in the area to steal balls) took it or it bounced off the yard marker and off the sprinkler head into the pond - call it a 1 in 10,000 chance), the fact that the 1 in 10,000 chance exists (Answer to the question 'could the ball be somewhere else' is 'yes') does not mean that it is a lost ball. 

 

dave

 

It's a question we ask when KVC is a part of the puzzle.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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