Abnormal course conditions?

[batcab27]

Would this be considered ground under repair in the abnormal course conditions rule? Not marked with any lines. Does GUR have to be marked? Thanks! 

[TerpFangolfer]

GUR doesn't have to be marked, but does have to be defined by the Committee. So in absence of any definitive verbage, thats just an area in poor condition. Every bare spot on the course is not automatically GUR. 

[sui generis]

TerpFan's advice is spot on.

 

If I found my ball in a spot like that, I might refer to Rule 20.1b for match play or 20.1c for stroke play and let the Committee decide. 

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

 

 

 

 

[rogolf]

When I'm marking a course, it is rare that I would mark GUR off a fairway.  That type of area might be very common on that course and would then not be an "abnormal" course condition for that course.  It would certainly be abnormal at Augusta, but that course doesn't look like Augusta.

[Fairway14]

3 hours ago, batcab27 said:

Would this be considered ground under repair in the abnormal course conditions rule? Not marked with any lines. Does GUR have to be marked? Thanks! 

 

Yes, GUR is to be marked by the golf course maintenance  crew and, or, a tournament employee/committee member, That said, calling out "abnormal course conditions" is a common refrain from cheaters looking to improve their lie.

[Halebopp]

Like rogolf said, it's very unlikely the area would be marked as GUR because it's off the fairway. I only mark areas under actual repair and possibly some "collection" points just off the fairway that might be in a bad condition (if the balls tend to roll somewhere, chances are the area also collects water and can be wet or muddy).

[Sawgrass]

It is incorrect to state that GUR must be defined as such by the Committee or a ref.  Several conditions qualify even if the Committee is silent on the matter. (Not the OP’s condition though.)

 

From the definition:

 

 

Ground under repair also includes the following things, even if the Committee does not define them as such:

[TerpFangolfer]

True Sawgrass, I guess I should have said "this type of GUR (i.e. basically a bare patch of ground) must be defined...."

 

As the other things that don't need to be defined are things like: holes made by maint staff, natural materials piled for removal, and animal habitat.

[RCGA]

Looks like the "unofficial" cart path to and from the green. 

 

Probably borderline, I've seen this marked and not marked in tournaments 

[sui generis]

The USGA and R&A guidance is found in Committee Procedures.

 

Deciding What Areas to Mark as Ground Under Repair

In general, when ground conditions are abnormal to the course or it is unreasonable to require a player to play from a specific area, it should be marked as ground under repair.

 

Before marking any areas as ground under repair, the Committee should review the entire course to assess what types of areas are abnormal to the course in its current condition.

 

Consideration should also be given to the location of any areas which may need to be marked:

 

Areas that are in or near a fairway should normally be marked if the Committee considers the damage to the area to be abnormal.

 

If the fairways of the course are in generally good condition, it might be appropriate to mark a single area of bare ground in the fairway as ground under repair.

 

When conditions are such that there are wide spread areas of bare ground, it would make sense not to mark or declare them all to be ground under repair but only mark the areas where a player may have difficulty being able to make a stroke at the ball, such as a heavily damaged or rutted area.

 

The farther the area is from the fairway the less appropriate it is that it should be marked as ground under repair. Areas that are well off the fairway or very short of the landing areas should only be marked when the damage is very severe.

 

If two or more areas of ground under repair are close together such that a player taking relief from one area may well drop in a position where there would be interference from another one, it would be advisable to mark a single area of ground under repair.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=2&subrulenum=6

[Hawkeye77]

Our course embarked on necessary dead tree/dying tree removal efforts a couple of years ago and particularly after last winter we have more stumps cut to about 3-4 inches above ground level hopefully awaiting permanent removal.  It would be nice if they were designated GUR and had some nice white circles around them, but they aren't so had to take my medicine and hit a left handed chip away from the base of one yesterday to the next fairway over.  Hit off the root of one on another hole last week (just a little shot - if had been more risky I'd have . . . . . . .  taken the unplayable, not the "root rule").  

 

Not claiming any moral high ground, and if the OP thinks that has potential for being designated as GUR definitely ask and see what the course thinks about it - my post comes about because that pic and the appearance of a depression makes me think a stump had been removed there (and maybe they are just assuming it will fill in with grass or don't care if it doesn't, which is okay as well).

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Our course embarked on necessary dead tree/dying tree removal efforts a couple of years ago and particularly after last winter we have more stumps cut to about 3-4 inches above ground level hopefully awaiting permanent removal.  It would be nice if they were designated GUR and had some nice white circles around them, but they aren't so had to take my medicine and hit a left handed chip away from the base of one yesterday to the next fairway over.  Hit off the root of one on another hole last week (just a little shot - if had been more risky I'd have . . . . . . .  taken the unplayable, not the "root rule").  

 

Not claiming any moral high ground, and if the OP thinks that has potential for being designated as GUR definitely ask and see what the course thinks about it - my post comes about because that pic and the appearance of a depression makes me think a stump had been removed there (and maybe they are just assuming it will fill in with grass or don't care if it doesn't, which is okay as well).

We consider stumps as "short trees" and there is no free relief.

[RCGA]

52 minutes ago, rogolf said:

We consider stumps as "short trees" and there is no free relief.

 

The thing is, I can see a tree and try to avoid it. I can't see a stump at any distance. 

 

A stump is like a landing in a fairway divot, it's unofficially GUR (provided you're in a playable area on the course and not in the trees). 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

We consider stumps as "short trees"

I like that.

[antip]

1 hour ago, RCGA said:

 

The thing is, I can see a tree and try to avoid it. I can't see a stump at any distance. 

 

A stump is like a landing in a fairway divot, it's unofficially GUR (provided you're in a playable area on the course and not in the trees). 

I like the first sentence. I don't like the second - there's nothing unofficial here - the club/Cttee needs to decide whether they are in play or not, it is not player discretion. 

I see a logic in treating them like piled grass cuttings - if the club intent is to remove them, then GUR; if the intent is to leave them there, then not GUR.

[Hawkeye77]

 

 

2 hours ago, antip said:

 

I see a logic in treating them like piled grass cuttings - if the club intent is to remove them, then GUR; if the intent is to leave them there, then not GUR.

 

Thank you.  My post was in the context of GUR and if the intent is to remove I would think they could mark them as GUR in the interim.  Unless and until they do I'm taking them as they come, they are definitely less intrusive as stumps, lol.

[twixster888]

Looks uniform to me. Probably a popular pee area 😂.  I wouldn’t feel good about taking relief from that…. When do we have hardpan lies then?

[antip]

7 hours ago, twixster888 said:

Looks uniform to me. Probably a popular pee area 😂.  I wouldn’t feel good about taking relief from that…. When do we have hardpan lies then?

Appreciate your perspective, but the Rules and 'feel good' are often from opposite sides of the track.

[ChipStrokes]

3 minutes ago, antip said:

Appreciate your perspective, but the Rules and 'feel good' are often from opposite sides of the track.

LOL guy agrees with the ruling and still gets reprimanded. this place is the worst. 

[antip]

1 hour ago, ChipStrokes said:

LOL guy agrees with the ruling and still gets reprimanded. this place is the worst. 

Reprimand? It was total agreement, total empathy. When folk from all over the planet get together in one place, even if we have the same native language (though that is often not the case), the scope for misunderstanding is near limitless.

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, antip said:

Reprimand? It was total agreement, total empathy. When folk from all over the planet get together in one place, even if we have the same native language (though that is often not the case), the scope for misunderstanding is near limitless.

sorry, allow me to walk back what i said. i read your comment the wrong way.