Shaft plane / Shoulder Turn

[FormerBigDaddy]

Very simple question I’ve wondered about for years and hoping to get clarity on. 
 

Should the angle of the shoulder turn in the takeaway, match the shaft plane established at address?

 

I know that you’re supposed to turn 90* to the spine, I get that, but it’s difficult for me to feel it when in my posture. My own guess is that the answer to the above question is no, because if you stood completely upright with a very long handled implement (think club a couple feet longer than a driver) resting on the ground and simply turned horizontally to the ground (90* to spine since you’re upright), the club would not move on the shaft plane without help from The hands and arms. In fact, the end of the “club” would never get off the ground until you did something with your hands/arms. And despite my best efforts, I can’t convince myself that a weird awkward side bend type turn is a normal athletic movement in this scenario. Who would actually do that in an athletic motion when standing upright and very long handed implement?  I think I’ve been wasting time on a poor concept I came up with in my mind about turning on the shaft plane and hands/arms doing nothing
 

Feedback would be much appreciated bc I need to commit to a concept in the worst way. 
 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by FormerBigDaddy

[Zitlow]

The shaft plane established at address is below the inclined plane you want to swing on. As the left arm approaches parallel to the ground in the backswing the left arm, shoulder, shaft and club face start coming onto the inclined plane. 

 

There are multiple actions that get you there. Shifting, extending, flexing, turning and winding. At the top everything should be perfectly on plane so you can sling the clubhead hard.

 

If you aren't on plane you won't be able to maximize your distance potential and you won't hit the ball where you want it to go.  

[FormerBigDaddy]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

The shaft plane established at address is below the inclined plane you want to swing on. As the left arm approaches parallel to the ground in the backswing the left arm, shoulder, shaft and club face start coming onto the inclined plane. 

 

There are multiple actions that get you there. Shifting, extending, flexing, turning and winding. At the top everything should be perfectly on plane so you can sling the clubhead hard.

 

If you aren't on plane you won't be able to maximize your distance potential and you won't hit the ball where you want it to go.  

I understand all that… my concern is the takeaway before the the shaft/club get above the shaft plane and on a more inclined plane. From what I’ve always understood, in a good takeaway the clubhead should travel up the shaft plane and through the hands. 
 

So back to my original question, should my shoulder turn be able to solely get the club moving up that shaft plane in the takeaway? And I’m taking with hands and arms doing absolutely nothing.
 

I think I answered it myself but again I just want clarity. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by FormerBigDaddy

[Noodler]

29 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I understand all that… my concern is the takeaway before the the shaft/club get above the shaft plane and on a more inclined plane. From what I’ve always understood, in a good takeaway the clubhead should travel up the shaft plane and through the hands. 
 

So back to my original question, should my shoulder turn be able to solely get the club moving up that shaft plane in the takeaway? And I’m taking with hands and arms doing absolutely nothing.
 

I think I answered it myself but again I just want clarity. 

 

The answers you seek are in "Decoding the Golf Swing Plane"

https://www.amazon.com/Decoding-Golf-Swing-Plane-Striking-ebook/dp/B00M8CCN1C/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

[N0rs3man]

Imo the effortless fast swing comes from shoulder turn, if u watch people closely, most ppl don't do a full shoulder turn.

 

I believe the club and shoulder turn are close to the same plane.

 

I think driver the club plane is slightly shallower than shoulders, and irons I believe the club plane is slightly more upright than shoulder turn.

 

You have to really point your left shoulder at the ball.

[skraly]

Shoulder turn will typically be slightly flatter than the shaft angle established ar address.

[FormerBigDaddy]

I actually think I’m 

15 minutes ago, N0rs3man said:

Imo the effortless fast swing comes from shoulder turn, if u watch people closely, most ppl don't do a full shoulder turn.

 

I believe the club and shoulder turn are close to the same plane.

 

I think driver the club plane is slightly shallower than shoulders, and irons I believe the club plane is slightly more upright than shoulder turn.

 

You have to really point your left shoulder at the ball.

I actually think you’re right and I’m completely wrong. I’ve experimented for a long time and have been going back and forth lately. Just took an old broomstick outside to test my hypothesis. Just started swinging it in different ways to see how I could create the most speed with it (loudest swoosh) and I most definitely ended up turning steeper with some side bend. I could feel my body really torque and wind up… very spring like. Arms doing nothing at all and the swoosh was much louder this way than trying to turn on a flatter plane with more arm lift/swing. Wasn’t close and much less moving parts. Could really feel my torso and lower half working. 
 

Ive played some good rounds this way but I seem to lack commitment. A few bad shots and I go to something else. 

[N0rs3man]

9 hours ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I actually think I’m 

I actually think you’re right and I’m completely wrong. I’ve experimented for a long time and have been going back and forth lately. Just took an old broomstick outside to test my hypothesis. Just started swinging it in different ways to see how I could create the most speed with it (loudest swoosh) and I most definitely ended up turning steeper with some side bend. I could feel my body really torque and wind up… very spring like. Arms doing nothing at all and the swoosh was much louder this way than trying to turn on a flatter plane with more arm lift/swing. Wasn’t close and much less moving parts. Could really feel my torso and lower half working. 
 

Ive played some good rounds this way but I seem to lack commitment. A few bad shots and I go to something else. 

Once I embraced it, I added 40 yards off the driver

[FormerBigDaddy]

33 minutes ago, N0rs3man said:

Once I embraced it, I added 40 yards off the driver

Do you have any videos or resources that helped you embrace it? I’ve had my moments, definitely longer. But I did hit some smothered low hooks and big pull draws. I suspect it was from not transitioning properly but I didn’t stay with it long enough to find out. 

[N0rs3man]

5 hours ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Do you have any videos or resources that helped you embrace it? I’ve had my moments, definitely longer. But I did hit some smothered low hooks and big pull draws. I suspect it was from not transitioning properly but I didn’t stay with it long enough to find out. 

No not really I just went with what hurt the next and and or what felt like a good swing in the moment. 

 

Hooks and pulls might be getting club too inside, try take a weaker grip or take club straight back

[FormerBigDaddy]

44 minutes ago, N0rs3man said:

No not really I just went with what hurt the next and and or what felt like a good swing in the moment. 

 

Hooks and pulls might be getting club too inside, try take a weaker grip or take club straight back

Take it straight back with shoulders /torso?

[N0rs3man]

40 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Take it straight back with shoulders /torso?

Well I mean on your backswing, start with the clubhead going straight down the target line the first couple inches, the hands and arms will start but the shoulders will be pretty much at the same time. 

 

I guess what I'm trying to do is just not get too steep or too shallow with the club, if you are hooking and pull draw you are probably getting too shallow. Causing your hands to compensate by rolling the face square at impact. 

 

If you have a driver in your hands you may want to keep a shallow plane, for an upward aoa. In that case a weaker grip would allow the shallow plane and straight ball flight. If you have an iron in your hands you want a steeper plane so you can have negative aoa. Which requires a little different arm path.

 

I'd assume if you wanted the exact same take away and swing on every swing you would have to adopt ben hogan's model for ball and foot position.

 

I don't do that bc open stance on short irons hurts my lower back, and I have single length clubs so my stance is the same every time.