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Number 1 swing flaw with amatures?


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A few friends and I spoke and we all came to the conclusion it was the body pivot.  People sliding to the right with hips or shoulders and head.  It seems like everyone I see at the range who is bad, does this.  Flat shoulders (heading moving) and/or sliding knees etc.  

 

Anyway, I am not a pro so I am curious to see what you think it is.  

Edited by Paddy_2_Iron
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Great topic! I would say it isn't one cause, but more one fault...strike! A mis hit can make the ball go high/low, left/right, but not enough people practice or identify their strike. The mist common swing fault I see is one that causes inconsistent striking (I agree with your body pivot point, causing many people to hit the ground first).

 

Great topic again!!

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Just now, Paddy_2_Iron said:

A few friends and I spoke and we all came to the conclusion it was the body pivot.  People sliding to the right with hips or shoulders and head.  It seems like everyone I see at the range who is bad, does this.  Flat shoulders and sliding.  

 

Anyway, I am not a pro so I am curious to see what you think it is.  

I tend to agree - what the body does affects the arms.    I haven't seen many swings where the body pivot is good but is really screwed up by the arms - now there still might be issues but by far what I see on this site is folks with poor tilts and angles, poor knee/hip movement, and if anything arms that end up restricting a pivot (think getting arms too inside early or even away from body too much in takeaway.          Nick Clearwater a while back (back when Covid just started and they played that round with DJ, Wolff, etc) snapped all four guys and cut off their arms (figuratively) in the backswing and noted how very similar all the body pivots where - and people focus too much on arms.

 

Clearwater photo where he "removed" the arms which are clearly different and focussed on how similar the bodys are in their tilts, etc.     Yes, they don't have exactly the same numbers but the body pattern is remarkably similar compared to the arms (though an argument can be made that the arms have similarities too).    And of course, it's not just the still photo but how they got there that is important and missed by focusing on stills of certain positions.

 

1284338717_ScreenShot2021-08-16at12_50_50PM.png.fee29a55f48c010375e7cd92908c7974.png

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5 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

#1 flaw is grip/setup.  Get that wrong and from there it all goes south.

 

I've seen a lot of different grips with golfers who post good scores.  One of the best guys we play with has a crazy strong grip and his bottom hand is way under the grip.  It looks weird as s*** but he drops low 80s, high 70s from 6700. 

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10.5 degree Ping Max 400 | Stiff Ping Shaft 55 gram

23 degree 2020 Callaway Super Hybrid | Mitsubishi Tensei CK PRO Orange 80 HYB Graphite

6 - GW F7 Cobra variable some Accra shafts and some KBS (All Steel)

Mizuno 56 MPT Rusty Black

Mizuno 60 S 18 Ion Blue

Wilson Buckingham 

 

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3 minutes ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

 

I've seen a lot of different grips with golfers who post good scores.  One of the best guys we play with has a crazy strong grip and his bottom hand is way under the grip.  It looks weird as s*** but he drops low 80s, high 70s from 6700. 

 

Crazy strong and bottom hand way under sounds like it is matched well, add a decent turn and you can make that work.  Not saying there is only one grip that works, but I see a ton of golfers with a completely mismatched grip and setting up way off target.  Fix what you can while the club is stationary...then you can worry on pivot.

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4 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

Crazy strong and bottom hand way under sounds like it is matched well, add a decent turn and you can make that work.  Not saying there is only one grip that works, but I see a ton of golfers with a completely mismatched grip and setting up way off target.  Fix what you can while the club is stationary...then you can worry on pivot.

 

I gotcha and to your defense, you stated both grip and setup which makes a lot of sense.  I'm not trying to disagree btw just having a conversation.  Funny you mention decent turn, he makes a really nice balanced one.  He always plays a draw though so there are certain holes he can't play.  But that is usually not that often.  

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10.5 degree Ping Max 400 | Stiff Ping Shaft 55 gram

23 degree 2020 Callaway Super Hybrid | Mitsubishi Tensei CK PRO Orange 80 HYB Graphite

6 - GW F7 Cobra variable some Accra shafts and some KBS (All Steel)

Mizuno 56 MPT Rusty Black

Mizuno 60 S 18 Ion Blue

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Just now, Paddy_2_Iron said:

 

I gotcha and to your defense, you stated both grip and setup which makes a lot of sense.  I'm not trying to disagree btw just having a conversation.  Funny you mention decent turn, he makes a really nice balanced one.  He always plays a draw though so there are certain holes he can't play.  But that is usually not that often.  

 

Sounds like "old school" golfer, a bit of slinging.  Fun to watch.  And yes, it makes a shot demanding a fade pretty near impossible to control with a grip like that.  I was the opposite.  Too weak of a grip and if I had a big dogleg left, I was playing a longer hole until I learned to adjust.  Still working on it.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

Sounds like "old school" golfer, a bit of slinging.  Fun to watch.  And yes, it makes a shot demanding a fade pretty near impossible to control with a grip like that.  I was the opposite.  Too weak of a grip and if I had a big dogleg left, I was playing a longer hole until I learned to adjust.  Still working on it.

 

 

 

Heck sounds like you know him, lol.  Huge divots, big 20 yard right to left swingers (with the long irons).  With the 3 iron he'll start it over a body of water and swing it back around.  It's quite entertaining.  He's one of the favorites in the group lol.  

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10.5 degree Ping Max 400 | Stiff Ping Shaft 55 gram

23 degree 2020 Callaway Super Hybrid | Mitsubishi Tensei CK PRO Orange 80 HYB Graphite

6 - GW F7 Cobra variable some Accra shafts and some KBS (All Steel)

Mizuno 56 MPT Rusty Black

Mizuno 60 S 18 Ion Blue

Wilson Buckingham 

 

Ball TPS5X TM

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Yes, you are right.

1) No turn as in "turning in the barrel."

2) The grip is awful.

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46 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

#1 flaw is grip/setup.  Get that wrong and from there it all goes south.

 

Agreed. Very few amateur players have a fundamentally sound grip technique, and faulty grip creates swing flaws.

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Too much LOFT...

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1 hour ago, iSwing said:

Amateurs are hands on, professionals are hands off. 

 

Keep telling yourself and watch any slow motion video from the side and there is plenty of hand action.  It's a little later than most of us, but there is a lot of hand action.  The clubface opens, then it closes.  The idea that the clubface should be "square to the arc" is a myth and does not show what an overwhelming majority (if not all) good golfers look like from P6 to P8.

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In search of solid contact...
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During Swing: Amending original comment, I would identify the problem as improper rotation. Some people slide rather than rotate - pick up the arms - while others over-rotate and are very spinney with lazy arms. Golf swing plane is diagonal, like kicking soccer ball. Too upright or too flat causes problems.

 

RRmisalign.jpg.29f24205bd4770a2246f573c3e721b55.jpgPre-Swing: Poor grip and bad set-up/alignment are killers. One of the big problems here is optical illusion from setting up with sideways glance, rather than standing behind ball for initial alignment. This is the whole Railroad Tracks set-up to avoid missing right (see red arrows) all the time.

 

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2 hours ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

A few friends and I spoke and we all came to the conclusion it was the body pivot.  People sliding to the right with hips or shoulders and head.  It seems like everyone I see at the range who is bad, does this.  Flat shoulders (heading moving) and/or sliding knees etc.  

 

Anyway, I am not a pro so I am curious to see what you think it is.  

 

That generally goes with pulling the right hand, right shoulder and right hip back. It is something I fight as well. Nonetheless, with a the hands farther forward in the stance like once was taught many years ago this can be remedied. 

 

I am helping a friend learn golf at 53 and he does all of the above. With his own technique he swings his 2 wood in the low 80's at most and jumping out of his shoes. Yesterday, at the range we worked on his setup and takeaway and he gets a few in the 90's and lets one rip at 106 out of the blue and was very relaxed. His better swings are generally a draw whereas he normally plays a slice.

 

What I don't get is why more people don't try this old technique, all one seems to see now is the Stack and Tilt which is turning the shoulder under and then apparently trying to figure how to square the clubface on the way down. The old technique I am referring too has the clubface opening early.

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The worst golfers have non functional grips producing clubfaces that are impossible to manage repeatedly and virtually never result in solid strikes.

 

The biggest difference I see between ams and pros in general is arm structure, which is a very broad term but I would define it in terms of the amount of bend in the right arm at the top of the swing. I’ve seen everything from high caps to scratch players with less than 90 degrees of flex in the right arm. That flaw is virtually nonexistent among tour players. 

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The biggest flaw is believing what amatures (hehe) say online in dogmatic ways of some monolithic grip, setup, stance or body movement.

 

For example, a style of grip has to match with other physical traits and movements to be efficient and effective.

 

You build the individual components of a player that will match to achieve the intended result, not try to manipulate arbitrary things to a result.

 

There is no "correct" grip or setup, or axis of rotation, etc. Ignore anyone who says the "correct" grip is like so. Hogan's grip was for Hogan's body and movements. Not yours.

 

@mikpga gave the most reasonable flaw. It's what your intended result is, not how you get there. There are plenty of ways that match up efficiently to get you there.

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On 8/16/2021 at 1:11 PM, Paddy_2_Iron said:

 

I've seen a lot of different grips with golfers who post good scores.  One of the best guys we play with has a crazy strong grip and his bottom hand is way under the grip.  It looks weird as s*** but he drops low 80s, high 70s from 6700. 

 

One of my friends has the weakest right hand grip you'll ever see and is a +4 hcp and his ball speed tops 180 mph.  It's incredible to watch.  And he's about 6-feet tall and 175 pounds.

 

Another friend that I grew up with (he is 12 years older than me) played at U. of Miami and won the Miami-Dade County Open.  He would play with his right thumb off the grip.

 

With the grip there really is no 'right way' or 'wrong way' that is universal in nature, it's more about a grip that matches up with your swing.  Somebody like Matt Wolff who has a very weak grip would likely be hitting snap hooks all day if they went to neutral or a little strong.  Put a neutral or weak grip on Trevino and he would be done for.  Tiger went to a weakish grip under Haney and it played a large role in destroying his driving skills but made him a great iron player.

 

Setup is probably a bit more universal even though there are many variations.  Tough to play with extreme setup angles, but even then you have guys like Keegan Bradley, Don January or Moe Norman.  Hell, I think a big part of Moe's great ballstriking was due to his setup.  I think it created a way to lengthen the flat spot by setting up so far behind the ball and I would not be surprised if some golfer in the future incorporates that in their swing and it's wildly successful and it helps popularize that setup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

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10 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

Sergio Garcia was asked this questions years ago and he replied (paraphrasing), “Amateurs do not accelerate after contact, through the ball.”

 

Neither does Sergio or any other pro for that matter.

 

 

 

RH

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