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Greens Fees up 25% "Just Because"


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I see Mickelson just sold 3 Phoenix area courses to Arcis Golf, masters of the 6 minute tee sheet.  Let's see how membership likes them apples.

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53 minutes ago, the bishop said:

I see Mickelson just sold 3 Phoenix area courses to Arcis Golf, masters of the 6 minute tee sheet.  Let's see how membership likes them apples.

Arcis is definitely the Walmart of golf course management here. Quality that is just good enough, service that meets basic needs and mostly agreeable prices. But you rarely leave feeling like you had a good experience or that anyone there even remotely cared whether you did or not. 

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The 36 hole facility I work as a starter is $32.00 to walk anytime on weekends as a member(which costs $35.00 per year). Weekdays are even less, carts are $ 16.00 per golfer, range buckets are $5.00 for 40 balls, both courses & practice range are packed every day. This is in New Jersey where property taxes, car insurance, etc., are sky high. Today, we are closed because of Henri & our golfers probably don't know what to do with themselves if they can't be on a golf course. We also have twilight rates at 4:00 pm & 6:00 pm where it even less to play, getting dark earlier every week though, playing time is limited already. Tee times are 10 minutes apart,  rounds on weekends are under 4 1/2 hours depending on who is working the courses, some rangers are better than others!

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5 hours ago, Roody said:


When I said blessed, I meant that we have around 60 golf courses within an hour’s drive. But yes, can’t play a lot during the winter months. As @BlackDiamondPar5 said though, the winters have been getting milder and milder the past few years. As long as there’s not snow on the ground, and it isn’t too windy, I’ll venture out for a winter round.

Yeah, I was just messin’ with you. Giving the guys that can’t play year round a hard time makes me feel better about the cost of living here! 😝haha. 60 golf courses within an hours drive… I’ve never thought about that. Now I’m curious how many I have within an hours drive… 🤔 How did you go about calculating that? 

Edited by TiScape
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5 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

Arcis is definitely the Walmart of golf course management here. Quality that is just good enough, service that meets basic needs and mostly agreeable prices. But you rarely leave feeling like you had a good experience or that anyone there even remotely cared whether you did or not. 

 

Yeah I always say Arcis is the master of "price it cheap and pack 'em deep". I'm clearly not their target clientele as I hate slow play, 7 minute tee times, concrete bunkers, and saturated fairways that are half mud. Apparently they have no problem filling their tee sheets with people who can look past that stuff if the price is right and the location is convenient. I also don't get why anyone would join one of their private clubs around here with how packed they are and how the conditions are nothing special, it's probably easier to get a tee time at a non-Arcis public course.

Edited by Bonneville85308
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5 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

Arcis is definitely the Walmart of golf course management here. Quality that is just good enough, service that meets basic needs and mostly agreeable prices. But you rarely leave feeling like you had a good experience or that anyone there even remotely cared whether you did or not. 

Well said.  The only thing I would disagree on is the agreeable prices part but also recognize that not all areas are the same.  The closest Arcis managed course near me is a housing community course (there's a ton of those around here) that they keep in generally good condition - greens in particular are quite nice.  But from a design standpoint you have to look at what they charge (approx. $85 rack rate) and ask yourself "is this place worth it?".  And for me its no and not even close.  Design-wise this is about a $45 - $50 course. 

 

But, its conveniently located and TBH it gets a lot of company tournaments/charity scrambles and for that its just fine.

 

But they pack 'em in like sardines there with tee times spaced 6 min apart so to stand around with 3 groups on every hole and pay $85 for it?  No thanks.

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On 8/21/2021 at 3:42 PM, Soloman1 said:

Carts are leased, so it's not a large one-time expense.

 

Not a single company. Everybody's been on the band wagon and they already raised rates this year.

 

Of course I understand supply and demand. I'm not a f(*@@&^ing moron. But this certainly feels like gouging. This will be a 50% increase for many courses in less than a year.

 

Some of it is driven by so many people from California moving here and also inflating the housing market beyond the crazy level. A house two doors down just sold (after 2 days on the market) for 50% more than the same size, style and location last year. People from California are paying a 20% premium on asking price and they're all cash sales. And these people are filling the tee sheets.

 

I know the courses don't care. 

 

No courses struggle in this area.

 

Oh, and...

Overseeding is overrated. 🙂 That's an expense that isn't always worth it.

 

I played for decades at courses that didn't overseed and the dormant Burmuda was just fine to play from. They throw a little safe color on the fairways, but it all works without the expense of overseeding. It's actually kind of nice. It helps to see a change of colors with seasons.

 

 

 

IMG_0475 3.JPG

IMG_0574.JPG

From a high daily fee Superintendent.   Overseeing is strictly an appearance think to justify the cost to corporate snd golf trip Buddy trips.   The playability of dormant bermuda is fine (as everyone knows) but if you are going to pay $150 + for a round you (tourist) expect to see green.  
 

footnote. American golfers are spoiled.  

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6 hours ago, TiScape said:

Yeah, I was just messin’ with you. Giving the guys that can’t play year round a hard time makes me feel better about the cost of living here! 😝haha. 60 golf courses within an hours drive… I’ve never thought about that. Now I’m curious how many I have within an hours drive… 🤔 How did you go about calculating that? 


I actually thought the number was closer to 80, but I had to look it up on the Googles. And it said it was around 60. It just feels like 80. We really do have a lot. Rochester is known for being a city that loves its golf. 

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53 minutes ago, Roody said:


I actually thought the number was closer to 80, but I had to look it up on the Googles. And it said it was around 60. It just feels like 80. We really do have a lot. Rochester is known for being a city that loves its golf. 

I got up to 97 within 40 miles of me and stopped counting. Looked at nextgengolf.org. Googled ‘courses within an hour of me’ and got nada. I’d imagine parts of Arizona/Florida also have a ton.

Edited by TiScape
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On 8/21/2021 at 10:21 AM, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

More reasons I feel grateful to live in the beautiful Finger Lakes region of Western NY. Plenty of nice courses w/good conditions, good carts, usually good staff and nice reasonably priced pubs at the 19th hole. The most expensive nearby might cost $75 w/cart, typical mid-quality around $35-50 w/cart.  I'd have to drive to Turning Stone and play Atunyote to break the $200 and that course is supposed to be superb.

 

I don't mind paying for quality but I'd seriously rather set 3 Franklins on fire in the middle of the road than pay that to play a semi goat track 🙂   

that seems like a very cool place to live for a lot of really, really great reason ... 

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On 8/21/2021 at 9:43 AM, Soloman1 said:

 

If you think they're going to pay employees more, lease new equipment and take better care, you're dreaming.


Actually around here that is part of the reason. Courses can not find workers, course, restaurant you name it. I know a course offering dishwashers $21 an hour with a $1500 signing bonus after 60 days. 
 

Another side is I know of a course that raised rates and lengthened tee times to ideally give the course a break. 

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On 8/21/2021 at 3:38 PM, Roody said:


I live in the same area, and you’re right about us being blessed up here. We have a lot of courses to choose from. Though we have lost Bristol Harbour and Shadow Pines over the last few years. 
 

I’m a member at a private course that was among the many privates that were struggling a few years ago. My wife and I joined in 2018 because like many of the clubs in the area, they were offering a great package deal to get new members. Now my club is full, and has a waiting list. Which also means the initiation fee is back to full price as well. 
 

Supply and demand. We’re just glad we got in when we did because we love it.

 

btw, I’ve already made two treks out to Turning Stone this summer. All three of their courses are fantastic.

 

 

Great area with great courses.  Absolutely atrocious weather for an avid golfer.

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1 hour ago, The Pearl said:

 

 

Great area with great courses.  Absolutely atrocious weather for an avid golfer.

 

Summer and fall are actually great for golf up here. Though I did just walk 36 holes over this past weekend in some god-awful heat and humidity. 

 

But you're right about the winters. 4-5 months of no golf is, how shall I put it... "trying". 

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14 hours ago, TiScape said:

Upstate NY and upstate Michigan. Both absolutely beautiful places. 

 But irrelevant for weather more than 1/2 the year. 

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29 minutes ago, Roody said:

 

Summer and fall are actually great for golf up here. Though I did just walk 36 holes over this past weekend in some god-awful heat and humidity. 

 

But you're right about the winters. 4-5 months of no golf is, how shall I put it... "trying". 

 

If you are a weekend golfer, you are at an even bigger disadvantage as there is always the chance you could be in prime golf season and not be able to play on consecutive weekends. A retiree, not so much, as you can be flexible with the schedule.  As a former WNY, I have come to the conclusion that natives that stay are somewhat oblivious to how bad the weather actually is in Central and WNY.   While winter is bad enough, the absurdly wet spring is simply "extended winter".  

 

With that said, when the weather is primo, there are very few settings better for a round of golf.  

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45 minutes ago, The Pearl said:

 

If you are a weekend golfer, you are at an even bigger disadvantage as there is always the chance you could be in prime golf season and not be able to play on consecutive weekends. A retiree, not so much, as you can be flexible with the schedule.  As a former WNY, I have come to the conclusion that natives that stay are somewhat oblivious to how bad the weather actually is in Central and WNY.   While winter is bad enough, the absurdly wet spring is simply "extended winter".  

 

With that said, when the weather is primo, there are very few settings better for a round of golf.  

Not in my experience in the Western Finger Lakes at least.  It would be very rare for any consecutive weekends that weather would prevent golf from being played during prime golf season.  Sure it can happen, but not usually.  Yes April is a horrible month and even on warm days we usually have to deal with soft and wet the ground--- I loathe that. Otherwise we still have plenty of great golf weather May - September often extending into October and early November.  Plus you can play until about 9:15PM in June and July which is pretty awesome. Sure obviously the weather in this region is not as golf friendly as some areas of the country, but then again we don't usually have to deal with oven like heat or unbearable humidity, not to mention fires, hurricanes, tornados, earth quakes and torrential rainfalls.  Most importantly to me is there is an almost unlimited supply of excellent public golf courses in the region, most $50 or less in prime season, making it virtually impossible to not be able to book a last minute tee time on any given weekend with a drive time of less than 30 minutes.  Probably can't do that in a lot of places.  Sure if you're a person that has to golf 12 months/year then the entire Mid Northern and North Eastern US probably isn't for them. 

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On 8/22/2021 at 10:38 AM, mesquite2 said:

The 36 hole facility I work as a starter is $32.00 to walk anytime on weekends as a member(which costs $35.00 per year). Weekdays are even less, carts are $ 16.00 per golfer, range buckets are $5.00 for 40 balls, both courses & practice range are packed every day. This is in New Jersey where property taxes, car insurance, etc., are sky high. Today, we are closed because of Henri & our golfers probably don't know what to do with themselves if they can't be on a golf course. We also have twilight rates at 4:00 pm & 6:00 pm where it even less to play, getting dark earlier every week though, playing time is limited already. Tee times are 10 minutes apart,  rounds on weekends are under 4 1/2 hours depending on who is working the courses, some rangers are better than others!

Where in NJ? What course?

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On 8/21/2021 at 1:45 PM, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

250 for a semi goat track? Hopefully the pigs get slaughtered. 

 

Pretty sure the golfers at the pigs at those rates  😃 

 

Edit:

Similar issue here but not nearly as high of rate increase.  I work a lot with one of the major Cities in the area which has 4-5 courses and two are very popular.  I asked about the rate hike and they stated it clearly.... because we can and we are still near 100% full everyday.    They noted some true aspects that the increased play has caused some increase cost in maintenance but they made no qualms about it...they are crushing it financially.  Given that years before we know a lot of courses struggled, so I guess may hay with you can.

 

ONE thing for sure COVID changed it with the  "I am working from home" group  .../cough cough.....  

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10 hours ago, Twinsgroupie said:

Not just the public / resort courses going nuts here in the Phoenix area.  Our club just changed their initiation fee on Sept 1st from $25k to $40k with basically zero notice to anyone.  Pure insanity! 


who would you expect them to notify and why? Is there a waiting list? Why would they not adjust to market demand?

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10 hours ago, Twinsgroupie said:

Not just the public / resort courses going nuts here in the Phoenix area.  Our club just changed their initiation fee on Sept 1st from $25k to $40k with basically zero notice to anyone.  Pure insanity! 

 

That's the case all over the country, but I don't see any reason why they would feel the need to notify the current members that the initiation fee was increasing. 

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2 hours ago, klebs01 said:


who would you expect them to notify and why? Is there a waiting list? Why would they not adjust to market demand?

This is a neighborhood type country club so there are tons of members at various levels like Jr Golf Members, Tennis Members, Social Members that are in various stages of upgrading to Full Golf.  I know one person that has an offer in on a house in the community and was told $25K was the initiation now before they even closed on the house its $40K - you think he is pissed?  There is no waiting list or anything like that since its a bit out of the way and almost all members have houses here.  The reason they are jumping... Probably ClubCorp their only goal is to suck every cent possible out of their properties seems to be the goal which has been extensively discussed here before lol.

 

I completely get business, costs, and supply/demand.  There is also doing it in good taste vs a pure money grab and tell customers tough it is what it is - take it or leave it without any flexibility.

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52 minutes ago, BK Bass said:

Perennial Ryegrass seed prices are almost double what they were last year. Poa Trivialis seed for the greens has doubled in price over the last couple of years. The courses are booking the same amount of overseed as in years past so the extra cost will have to be made up in green fees. 


We go through 2 pallets of P-rye a year. A friend at Barenbrug told us prices were tripling so we ordered 8 pallets 2 days before the price increase. Rough year for seed in the seed capitol of the world.

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On 8/22/2021 at 1:41 PM, the bishop said:

...that they keep in generally good condition - greens in particular are quite nice.  But from a design standpoint you have to look at what they charge (approx. $85 rack rate) and ask yourself "is this place worth it?".  And for me its no and not even close.  Design-wise this is about a $45 - $50 course. 

 

But, its conveniently located and TBH it gets a lot of company tournaments/charity scrambles and for that its just fine.

 

But they pack 'em in like sardines there with tee times spaced 6 min apart so to stand around with 3 groups on every hole and pay $85 for it?  No thanks.

 

It's fun to see you come <this close> to connecting the dots. 🙂

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