Correct Hand Path without “pulling” on the handle

[stingerfade]

Pretty much speaks for itself. How do you get the hands/arms down in front of the body from the top in a nice delivery position without actually pulling down in the handle thus making the club steep. Like everything in golf it’s counter intuitive and can’t seem to find the right intent/feel. The Justin rose video is the “feel” but how to get it all down without pulling….

 

Also, I’m speaking from the perspective of mdlt/amg/monte kind of thing not the leave the hands up and turn the body. My shoulders are waaaaaaay overactive from the top and that intent is a disaster for me. Thanks and please keep it civil and don’t derail 

Edited August 21, 2021 by stingerfade

[extrastiff]

18 minutes ago, stingerfade said:

Pretty much speaks for itself. How do you get the hands/arms down in front of the body from the top in a nice delivery position without actually pulling down in the handle thus making the club steep. Like everything in golf it’s counter intuitive and can’t seem to find the right intent/feel. The Justin rose video is the “feel” but how to get it all down without pulling….

 

Also, I’m speaking from the perspective of mdlt/amg/monte kind of thing not the leave the hands up and turn the body. My shoulders are waaaaaaay overactive from the top and that intent is a disaster for me. Thanks and please keep it civil and don’t derail 

post video. Get a coach that says clear things u can research, and I recommend they must compareur two-angle video to pros or use squiggly lines if they are worth it. 
 

Without video I’d say focus on bumping hips to the left in preshot. (right handed player) and truely stacking. Then make sure head drops back towards the right/centered. Don’t leave the head bumped out there with the hips. It will promote great path and a nice move thru the ball with a nice bottom point control and anatomically governed path. I’m a stack guy, since my coach showed me how to do it correctly. It works if done correctly. 

ball position forward of center, will promote bottom of arch being more forward, what we want. Further back u go, more u want to reach back there for it, creating bottom-point issues. 
 

then just do a turn with the appropriate stack and tempo, then I just fire hips for downswing. viola. with those focal points, plus a good alignment pre shot, I have not had to get super caught up in hand path or pulling type vibes in a while

Edited August 21, 2021 by extrastiff

[RichieHunt]

The hands for most good golfers are in front of the body at p4.  

 

The initial hand path should be at a steeper angle than the succeeding hand path.  So from p4 to about p4.8-ish the hands should move more vertically.  From p4.8-ish until p6 the hands should move at a flatter angle.

 

OTT hand paths have the hand path moving at roughly the same angle constantly throughout the downswing.  Usually it's a very diagonal hand path direction and the left arm juts out too much.

 

Often times it's more of a result of the backswing than actually working on the transition and downswing.   Bad pivot, lack of pressure shifts, trail elbow motion and positioning, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[otto6457]

I'm not sure I understand the question.  There has to be some "pull" in the golf swing.  If you didn't pull the club head would just fall down from the top of the back swing and land on the ground about 3 feet behind you.  Rotation provides the "pull".  Some players add more power with the right arm extending through impact, but it's the pull of rotation that gets the club moving down and out at the ball.

 

Maybe a good visual is that of a person riding in an inner tube on a rope tied behind a motor boat.  You're driving the boat and you want to throw the unsuspecting inner tube passenger off the inner tube in the most satisfying manner possible.  You are just cruising across the lake at a thrilling, but manageable speed.  Your inner tube passenger is loving life and just enjoying the day.  Now you stand on the throttle and turn hard left.  Your inner tube victim is now speeding up at a terrifying pace. Being flung out to the right as if they were shot from a gun.  (Their eyes are now as big as dinner plates) They are thrown out so fast there is no conceivable way for them to remain in that now screaming bullet of an inner tube headed towards disaster.  They flail and scream as they fly headfirst and end over end to a spectacular crash.  The end seems more like a plane crash. 

 

Now apply that visual to your golf swing.  The motor boat is your left shoulder.  The rope is your left arm and the club shaft.  The inner tube is the club head, and the ball is your victim.

 

Your back swing is the thrilling but manageable movement.  Then you change direction (turn the boat hard left) in an effort to impart the angular momentum to the rope and inner tube.  Your left shoulder provides that change of direction (the pull).  Now you just keep the throttle down and keep the rope tight through the point where your victim (the ball) is launched in the most satisfying way possible.  

 

This applies if I'm correctly understanding your question.  The "pull" comes from your left shoulder (right handed golfer) not your hands pulling down. 

Edited August 22, 2021 by otto6457
spelling

[stingerfade]

52 minutes ago, extrastiff said:

post video. Get a coach that says clear things u can research, and I recommend they must compareur two-angle video to pros or use squiggly lines if they are worth it. 
 

Without video I’d say focus on bumping hips to the left in preshot. (right handed player) and truely stacking. Then make sure head drops back towards the right/centered. Don’t leave the head bumped out there with the hips. It will promote great path and a nice move thru the ball with a nice bottom point control and anatomically governed path. I’m a stack guy, since my coach showed me how to do it correctly. It works if done correctly. 

ball position forward of center, will promote bottom of arch being more forward, what we want. Further back u go, more u want to reach back there for it, creating bottom-point issues. 
 

then just do a turn with the appropriate stack and tempo, then I just fire hips for downswing. viola. with those focal points, plus a good alignment pre shot, I have not had to get super caught up in hand path or pulling type vibes in a while

What is a “stack” 

 

not posting a video. I know what my coach wants me to do and can do it in mirror in range etc but on the course i struggle and am just looking for some feels or intents to not “pull the handle” to get the arms down in front or spin the shoulder fro the top 

Edited August 22, 2021 by stingerfade

[stingerfade]

6 minutes ago, otto6457 said:

I'm not sure I understand the question.  There has to be some "pull" in golf swing.  If you didn't pull the club head would just fall down from the top of the back swing and land on the ground about 3 feet behind you.  Rotation provides the "pull".  Some players add more power with the right arm extending through impact, but it's the pull of rotation that gets the club moving down and out at the ball.

 

Maybe a good visual is that of a person riding in an inner tube on a rope tied behind a motor boat.  You're driving the boat and you want to throw the unsuspecting inner tube passenger off the inner tube in the most satisfying manner possible.  You are just cruising across the lake at a thrilling, but manageable speed.  Your inner tube passenger is loving life and just enjoying the day.  Now you stand on the throttle and turn hard left.  Your inner tube victim is now speeding up at a terrifying pace. Being flung out to the right as if they were shot from a gun.  (Their eyes are now as big as dinner plates) They are thrown out so fast there is no conceivable way for them to remain in that now screaming bullet of an inner tube headed towards disaster.  They flail and scream as they fly headfirst and end over end to a spectacular crash.  The end seems more like a plane crash. 

 

Now apply that visual to your golf swing.  The motor boat is your left shoulder.  The rope is your left arm and the club shaft.  The inner tube is the club head, and the ball is your victim.

 

Your back swing is the thrilling but manageable movement.  Then you change direction (turn the boat hard left) in an effort to impart the angular momentum to the rope and inner tube.  Your left shoulder provides that change of direction (the pull).  Now you just keep the throttle down and keep the rope tight through the point where your victim (the ball) is launched in the most satisfying way possible.  

 

This applies if I'm correctly understanding your question.  The "pull" comes from your left shoulder (right handed golfer) not your hands pulling down. 

Thanks it’s funny there’s a Chris Ryan video using the water skier visual but a little differently. Thanks for the advice but as I said initially that intent of “just rotate” is a disaster for me because my shoulders just take over when they should be more passive. When I think “rotate from the ground up” me arms get left behind and it’s high right spin city. 
 

basically there’s the Justin rose video where he feels the back to the target as the arms drop in front. My question is how do you accomplish that without forcibly pulling down the handle? 

[stingerfade]

14 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

The hands for most good golfers are in front of the body at p4.  

 

The initial hand path should be at a steeper angle than the succeeding hand path.  So from p4 to about p4.8-ish the hands should move more vertically.  From p4.8-ish until p6 the hands should move at a flatter angle.

 

OTT hand paths have the hand path moving at roughly the same angle constantly throughout the downswing.  Usually it's a very diagonal hand path direction and the left arm juts out too much.

 

Often times it's more of a result of the backswing than actually working on the transition and downswing.   Bad pivot, lack of pressure shifts, trail elbow motion and positioning, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

Thanks Richie. The problem is I know what I want my hands to do lol just struggling to get them to do it haha ESPECIALLY with driver. Irons are actually a strength and pretty good but once I get the ball on a tee it’s harder than having the ball on the ground for me which of course, makes no sense ha

Edited August 22, 2021 by stingerfade

[otto6457]

1 minute ago, stingerfade said:

Thanks it’s funny there’s a Chris Ryan video using the water skier visual but a little differently. Thanks for the advice but as I said initially that intent of “just rotate” is a disaster for me because my shoulders just take over when they should be more passive. When I think “rotate from the ground up” me arms get left behind and it’s high right spin city. 
 

basically there’s the Justin rose video where he feels the back to the target as the arms drop in front. My question is how do you accomplish that without forcibly pulling down the handle? 

I understand now.  So you feel like your right shoulder moves out and your right arm gets stuck behind you?

[golfarb1]

Right shoulder external rotation AUTOMATICALLY moves the right ELBOW towards the target line

Refer to “elbow move quiz” on YouTube.

[RichieHunt]

31 minutes ago, stingerfade said:

Thanks Richie. The problem is I know what I want my hands to do lol just struggling to get them to do it haha ESPECIALLY with driver. Irons are actually a strength and pretty good but once I get the ball on a tee it’s harder than having the ball on the ground for me which of course, makes no sense ha

 

The hand path kinda goes more 'behind' the player initially.  Chris Como recommends the ax drill

 

 

AMG recommends the lead arm 'slide down' the chest.'

 

 

 

Personally I like Eric Cogorno's teachings on the trail arm.

 

 

I wish I had a video of my dad's swing from the rear view because he's a classic case of a pretty good trail elbow move in the backswing, but he gets no external rotation of the trail elbow in the downswing and his trail elbow 'pops out.'

 

But the point remains that your backswing could be preventing you from being able to do any of these moves.   

 

 

 

 

RH

 

[Zitlow]

Provided your shoulders, left arm, shaft and the club face are on plane at the top, the hand path takes care of itself in the downswing if your pivot is correct.

 

Dropping, pulling or pushing the arms will screw you up as will starting the downswing with the shoulders. 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Zitlow

[rondo01]

2 hours ago, stingerfade said:

 

basically there’s the Justin rose video where he feels the back to the target as the arms drop in front. My question is how do you accomplish that without forcibly pulling down the handle? 

Lower the arms like you’re uncurling a dumbbell, not pulling a rope. At the same time, try to keep the logo on your glove moving towards the sky.

 

you might try making a swing with your trail hand completely open, only gripping the club with the lead hand. If you pull down, I doubt you’ll be able to finish the swing because you won’t have any leverage to save it.

Edited August 22, 2021 by rondo01

[stingerfade]

2 hours ago, otto6457 said:

I understand now.  So you feel like your right shoulder moves out and your right arm gets stuck behind you?

Not really. I can use the gbox and not hit the box ever so the elbow misses it but shoulders def initiate the downswing if I don’t monitor it. I have success at the range if I focus starting down with the arms and keeping back to the target but it’s a struggle because I think when I do that, I naturally pull with my hands. And as you know in golf whatever’s natural is wrong haha. Also my face control is good as I naturally get good wrist conditions. It’s really trying to really keep those shoulders quiet without pulling and getting steep. It’s really only the driver. I think I have driver yips becaose don’t have this problem with irons unless I really really go after one which is rare 

 

plus if I really try and rip a driver I get in front of it with my upper body because of the shoulder domination. It only happens with driver but it’s all a combination I’m trying to unlock. I know WHAT I want to do but having a hard time Physically DOING IT. So frustrating 

Edited August 22, 2021 by stingerfade

[stingerfade]

8 minutes ago, rondo01 said:

Lower the arms like you’re uncurling a dumbbell, not pulling a rope. At the same time, try to keep the logo on your glove moving towards the sky.

Interesting. So it’s a right arm move in your mind not a hands. So your hands are quiet and just controlling the face? 

[jobin]

@RichieHunt  Where do you get the idea that position p4 describes the hands in front of the body?  This web site shows p4 'top of swing' and hands behind the body:

https://www.thediygolfer.com/the-positions-of-the-golf-swing-p-classification-system/

[rondo01]

8 minutes ago, stingerfade said:

Interesting. So it’s a right arm move in your mind not a hands. So your hands are quiet and just controlling the face? 

not entirely - as arms fall the hands are moving ala motorcycle move to shut the face early. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CIRY1WoliAE/?utm_medium=copy_link

[stingerfade]

2 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

 

The hand path kinda goes more 'behind' the player initially.  Chris Como recommends the ax drill

 

 

AMG recommends the lead arm 'slide down' the chest.'

 

 

 

Personally I like Eric Cogorno's teachings on the trail arm.

 

 

I wish I had a video of my dad's swing from the rear view because he's a classic case of a pretty good trail elbow move in the backswing, but he gets no external rotation of the trail elbow in the downswing and his trail elbow 'pops out.'

 

But the point remains that your backswing could be preventing you from being able to do any of these moves.   

 

 

 

 

RH

 

Hey man thanks for taking the time with these 🙂 

 

the axe one sounds like to do it your bicep would uncurl as rondo above said. 

that amg video is what I was taught as well hands AT the ball…..brain unlocking…..this video is what I was looking for. The INTENT or creating the correct CONCEPT is what it’s all about….when I first started I didn’t take lessons and was ok but played with a good golfer and he asked me what was my intent with irons. I of course said im trying to scoop the ball. I thought the divot was equal on both sides of the ball and you got under it. He said nope hit the ball then the ground. I was like, whaaaaaat!!?? That one thing literally changed my game overnight and was an easy change. Of course took me awhile to figure out I had to keep my head and upper body back while doing it, not just lunge down hit the ball and take a New York strip of earth haha (I got that)  I only wish he gave me the proper intent for driver too…

 

 

I know you’re a pretty good golfer i’m just curious how does this translate to driver for you? All the videos are usually with irons.  Is it really just a setup difference or something a little more as for me, like I said irons are pretty pure but driver is almost a different swing where im not sure what my swing thoughts are and im trying to swing “up” while irons I’m definitely down and it isn’t confusing and feels natural. Swinging “down” like the axe doesn’t seem like it should work to hit “up” but is it really the same deal?  
 

thanks all for the thoughts. Just want to discuss what everyone thinks as “feels” are so subjective 🙂

Edited August 22, 2021 by stingerfade

[stingerfade]

6 minutes ago, rondo01 said:

not entirely - as arms fall the hands are moving ala motorcycle move to shut the face early. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CIRY1WoliAE/?utm_medium=copy_link

Sorry that what I meant. I motorcycle naturally so face control isn’t really an issue for me. Slicefixer even said I had tremendous wrist conditions when I saw him haha I have a hanger training g aid and have zero probs with that action so it’s all a shoulder shitts pivot somewhere in the chain.

 

I’m confused by your thought of keeping the logo going to the sky?  I mean if you’re bowing/twisting the shaft down the logo won’t point to the sky because the face is wide open?

Edited August 22, 2021 by stingerfade

[stingerfade]

12 minutes ago, rondo01 said:

not entirely - as arms fall the hands are moving ala motorcycle move to shut the face early. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CIRY1WoliAE/?utm_medium=copy_link

Seems like it’s possible I need to really work on patience in transition to allow these moves I’m trying to have time to happen. (all of these videos I’m aware and that’s why I’m asking the feels because I know that I’m supposed to do all these lol) but I’m very very quick from the top…..I’ve always been a smaller guy so ingrained a rip it mentality to keep up which doesn’t work but the male ego won’t let me NOT just rip it from the top. At the range I swing smooth from the top and rip it way further but that dame brain keeps getting in my way….hmmm great discussion!!

Edited August 22, 2021 by stingerfade

[SPIF]

2 hours ago, jobin said:

@RichieHunt  Where do you get the idea that position p4 describes the hands in front of the body?  This web site shows p4 'top of swing' and hands behind the body:

https://www.thediygolfer.com/the-positions-of-the-golf-swing-p-classification-system/

The club grip/handle is still in front of the shoulders when viewed from above. The shoulders have turned ~90* from address, so the club naturally has come in from the target line.  There are many 3D resources out there that demonstrate this far better than a 1000 words, though.  

 

I would recommend looking up GEARS demonstrations.  Lots of good info is available on youtube.  AMG for starters

[tthomasgolfer605]

@stingerfade Sounds like a shaft weight/flex issue if it's only with the driver. You shouldn't have to change your swing for one club.

 

[NoFancyUsername.]

6 hours ago, stingerfade said:

Pretty much speaks for itself. How do you get the hands/arms down in front of the body from the top in a nice delivery position without actually pulling down in the handle thus making the club steep. Like everything in golf it’s counter intuitive and can’t seem to find the right intent/feel. The Justin rose video is the “feel” but how to get it all down without pulling….

 

Also, I’m speaking from the perspective of mdlt/amg/monte kind of thing not the leave the hands up and turn the body. My shoulders are waaaaaaay overactive from the top and that intent is a disaster for me. Thanks and please keep it civil and don’t derail 

No short cuts in golf. There are the basics, then its practice practice practice.

A lot of english words used to teach golf has screwed many an amateur golfer.

Certain words should never be used or heard. Turn, pull, push, steep, shallow blah blah blah.

80% of a golf swing is set-up. See a good teacher.

[rondo01]

9 hours ago, stingerfade said:

Sorry that what I meant. I motorcycle naturally so face control isn’t really an issue for me. Slicefixer even said I had tremendous wrist conditions when I saw him haha I have a hanger training g aid and have zero probs with that action so it’s all a shoulder shitts pivot somewhere in the chain.

 

I’m confused by your thought of keeping the logo going to the sky?  I mean if you’re bowing/twisting the shaft down the logo won’t point to the sky because the face is wide open?

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDe0DXYpjlx/?utm_medium=copy_link

Edited August 22, 2021 by rondo01

[johnrobison]

You're dragging out, if not sabotaging, your improvement by not posting a video of your swing. People want to help you but are just giving you thoughts and feels without knowing what is actually causing your OTT move. You might have a setup issue, for all anyone knows, that makes it impossible for you to be on the correct hand path. The advice you're getting is well intended but nobody knows whether it's correct for you. Why not post a video? You'll be miles ahead of where you are now.

[Justsomeguy]

Brian Manzella said something really simple and smart on the subject, while watching a pro swing. It's vague but it clicked for me: 

"The argument is he is NOT pushing against the shaft at all.

Or he is.

Obviously—he is."

The thought of pushing against the shaft versus pulling anything did something for me.

[stingerfade]

43 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

You're dragging out, if not sabotaging, your improvement by not posting a video of your swing. People want to help you but are just giving you thoughts and feels without knowing what is actually causing your OTT move. You might have a setup issue, for all anyone knows, that makes it impossible for you to be on the correct hand path. The advice you're getting is well intended but nobody knows whether it's correct for you. Why not post a video? You'll be miles ahead of where you are now.

I have an instructor, I’m asking what people’s feels are which are subjective. As I’ve said I know what I’m trying to do but the feels/thoughts I haven’t found one that really sticks.

 

posting a swing here is probably the worst thing anyone can do. To get 100 opinions from random internet people is not a good way to go. The axe video como was great because that’s WHAT I’m trying to ingraine (per my instructor) but have never seen it described that way. 

[stingerfade]

3 minutes ago, Justsomeguy said:

Brian Manzella said something really simple and smart on the subject, while watching a pro swing. It's vague but it clicked for me: 

"The argument is he is NOT pushing against the shaft at all.

Or he is.

Obviously—he is."

The thought of pushing against the shaft versus pulling anything did something for me.

Thanks!! I’ve done well with that feel for irons pushing hand away from body gets them wide and down. Doesn’t work for driver for me. 

[stingerfade]

8 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

@stingerfade Sounds like a shaft weight/flex issue if it's only with the driver. You shouldn't have to change your swing for one club.

 

That’s why it’s so frustrating. Swing weights and flexes are the same through the bag and I used to hit driver great (before I started thinking about it haha)

[Zitlow]

If you're consciously trying to control the hand path to the ball you have issues, all bad.  

[stingerfade]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

If you're consciously trying to control the hand path to the ball you have issues, all bad.  

Let go to gain control I get that 🙂

 

my question revolves around the feels, concepts or thoughts to achieve that. You can tell me to swing like mike Austin all day but that really doesn’t do me any good. I’d love to, trust me haha