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Correct Hand Path without “pulling” on the handle


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@stingerfade  I've posted a ton of Mike Austin's keys which pertain to his motion and his concepts. Small keys unlock large doors. 

 

A metaphor for Austin's swing would be a bow and arrow. You aim the arrow, pull the arrow back which puts tension on the bow and string. Then all you do is let the arrow go, the bow and string release their tension/energy into the arrow sending it on it's way. 

 

Austin used his backswing to load the tension and aim his left arm, shoulders, shaft and club face on plane. Then he let the arrow go with his pivot and released the energy into the club head. No manipulation of the path or anything else was required. 

 

Like anything else there's a learning curve involved until the motion becomes a trained reflex pattern. The hard part is unlearning the square peg in a round hole instruction we're exposed to by the Golf Instruction Industrial Complex. haha

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

@stingerfade  I've posted a ton of Mike Austin's keys which pertain to his motion and his concepts. Small keys unlock large doors. 

 

A metaphor for Austin's swing would be a bow and arrow. You aim the arrow, pull the arrow back which puts tension on the bow and string. Then all you do is let the arrow go, the bow and string release their tension/energy into the arrow sending it on it's way. 

 

Austin used his backswing to load the tension and aim his left arm, shoulders, shaft and club face on plane. Then he let the arrow go with his pivot and released the energy into the club head. No manipulation of the path or anything else was required. 

 

Like anything else there's a learning curve involved until the motion becomes a trained reflex pattern. The hard part is unlearning the square peg in a round hole instruction we're exposed to by the Golf Instruction Industrial Complex. haha

 

 

 

 

That’s what I’m talking about! I feel I have mental yips with driver because I dont struggle with any other club. Even 3 wood off tee. My neural pathway is so ingrained and crappy that my square peg is more like a 20 sided D&D die into a round hole. Something about the ball up off the ground makes me want to tilt back and hit up or something instead of just swinging g like a 6 iron with the ball forward in the arc. Ugh thanks everyone this is good 🙂

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2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

@stingerfade  I've posted a ton of Mike Austin's keys which pertain to his motion and his concepts. Small keys unlock large doors. 

 

A metaphor for Austin's swing would be a bow and arrow. You aim the arrow, pull the arrow back which puts tension on the bow and string. Then all you do is let the arrow go, the bow and string release their tension/energy into the arrow sending it on it's way. 

 

Austin used his backswing to load the tension and aim his left arm, shoulders, shaft and club face on plane. Then he let the arrow go with his pivot and released the energy into the club head. No manipulation of the path or anything else was required. 

 

Like anything else there's a learning curve involved until the motion becomes a trained reflex pattern. The hard part is unlearning the square peg in a round hole instruction we're exposed to by the Golf Instruction Industrial Complex. haha

 

 

 

 

So in the description above the arms are relatively a passive feel? I know Austin taught you and I’ve watched all his vids and he’s a cryptic and not a good communicator ha

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@stingerfadeAustin had a brilliant mind but was short in the patience department. He was like a Rembrandt trying to teach a kindergartener how to paint a masterpiece.

 

What might be throwing you off is trying to make your swing conform to the swing plane established at address. Trying to conform your swing to that static plane is the kiss of death in terms of distance and control. 

 

Austin's left arm was passive, he used it to maintain the radius of the circle. His hands worked his arms except he used his right humerus bone to help load his scaps at the top of his backswing. 

 

He put most of the force/energy in his swing in his transition, from there he and the club auto piloted to the finish. The ball just got in the way of the clubhead. Yeah I know, everyone says to have a slow transition. 

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Stinger, 

 

The issue is no one here has any idea what you are doing.  Without seeing it, it's literally a guess as to what you need to be doing better and the feels and intents that could go along with that.  If you don't want to post a swing, so be it.  But to hope that a myriad of random dudes throwing out random feels will somehow help, rather than hurt, is unwise at best and masochistic in practice.

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40 minutes ago, SPIF said:

Stinger, 

 

The issue is no one here has any idea what you are doing.  Without seeing it, it's literally a guess as to what you need to be doing better and the feels and intents that could go along with that.  If you don't want to post a swing, so be it.  But to hope that a myriad of random dudes throwing out random feels will somehow help, rather than hurt, is unwise at best and masochistic in practice.

Disagree wholeheartedly and feel free not to follow the thread. Thanks 

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This vid from AMG has helped me understand the action of the shoulders in the downswing. My right shoulder was definitely overactive towards the ball from the top and preventing me from getting into good positions. A little after the 2:30 mark they talk about how both shoulders go down  and away in transition. I always got my left shoulder down but towards the ball and the right shoulder at the ball as a first move down. 

 

Once I've loaded the pressure on my left side at the end of the backswing, I think of maintaining a triangle between my pelvis and both shoulders. They all go down and away from the target as part of my transition and my hand plane will follow. I can begin to rotate the lower body during this movement while keeping my back to the target and then unleash everything onto the ball. 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, iSwing said:

Hand path is a product of intent within a late strike.  Feeling one corporate hand on the club but hitting with both hands will find a very limited path satisfying the request to hit with both hands. 

What if my hands are more small business?? I kid, just not sure what the auto correct should mean 🧐

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11 hours ago, golfie1 said:

The answer is you throw the clubhead. To see how this works just take your backswing and attempt to throw the club head up and back behind you. Observe how your hands move down and in front of you. That’s it.

I can do this with my irons with ZERO probs and is how I swing them. Driver I try to have the same intent but the club head catches up early. I wonder if it’s because it’s so much longer in the shaft if I have to slow it down

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8 hours ago, Precis1on said:

This vid from AMG has helped me understand the action of the shoulders in the downswing. My right shoulder was definitely overactive towards the ball from the top and preventing me from getting into good positions. A little after the 2:30 mark they talk about how both shoulders go down  and away in transition. I always got my left shoulder down but towards the ball and the right shoulder at the ball as a first move down. 

 

Once I've loaded the pressure on my left side at the end of the backswing, I think of maintaining a triangle between my pelvis and both shoulders. They all go down and away from the target as part of my transition and my hand plane will follow. I can begin to rotate the lower body during this movement while keeping my back to the target and then unleash everything onto the ball. 

 

 

Can you further explain the triangle you mentioned? As in two shoulders are a point and the third is?? Middle of pelvis as one unit? Thanks

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For the first few months of trying not to pull down on the handle, I thought it meant "don't pull at all" and I tried so, so hard to just let my body guide dead arms to the ball. I missed the key word of "down". Now I just try to get my right elbow in and it shallows nicely, so I definitely am pulling again, just diagonally. If I'm still wrong about this please correct me!

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1 hour ago, stingerfade said:

Can you further explain the triangle you mentioned? As in two shoulders are a point and the third is?? Middle of pelvis as one unit? Thanks

 

As simply put as I can, both shoulders and the center of my pelvis all move down and away from the ball in transition. You should really feel the left heel pressure increase when that happens. 

 

I have very poor movement in my upper trunk during transition, so this is what works really well for me. 

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4 minutes ago, Precis1on said:

 

As simply put as I can, both shoulders and the center of my pelvis all move down and away from the ball in transition. You should really feel the left heel pressure increase when that happens. 

 

I have very poor movement in my upper trunk during transition, so this is what works really well for me. 

 

Are you thinking similar to Monte's "Zipper Away?"  I like that in combo with the "cast" part of NTC.  Doing both prevents me from doing stupid things that would otherwise cause laughter and hilarity to ensue.

 

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3 minutes ago, games said:

 

Are you thinking similar to Monte's "Zipper Away?"  I like that in combo with the "cast" part of NTC.  Doing both prevents me from doing stupid things that would otherwise cause laughter and hilarity to ensue.

 

 

Pelvis movement yes, 100% Zipper Away. For me my shoulders still didn't want to do what they needed to with zipper away (aka still way too aggressive towards the ball), so I have to think that both shoulders move with the pelvis down and away. I was managing to get my pelvis away and somehow dropping the left shoulder towards the ball and right shoulder was rotating way to early.

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2 hours ago, stingerfade said:

I can do this with my irons with ZERO probs and is how I swing them. Driver I try to have the same intent but the club head catches up early. I wonder if it’s because it’s so much longer in the shaft if I have to slow it down

Two possibilities. 1 maybe you are just trying to swing too hard with the driver and getting out of sequence let your body react.

 

2. maybe throwing in the wrong direction with the driver. As an experiment try throwing the driver Club head  straight-up which moves your arms faster and further ahead.

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On 8/21/2021 at 8:08 PM, stingerfade said:

basically there’s the Justin rose video where he feels the back to the target as the arms drop in front. My question is how do you accomplish that without forcibly pulling down the handle? 

 

Take a Zen approach. Consider the difference between making something happen and letting something happen. 

Making something happen requires intent and muscle tension. Letting something happen involves lack of intent and muscle relaxation. 

 

FWIW there are multiple ways your hands could get lower without pulling the handle. You could relax and let gravity work. You could imagine some giant finger pressing down on the other end of the shaft. You could imagine that the end of the grip is connected to your lead-side pants pocket with a stretchy band that wants to help bring the end cap down and inside. None of these images involve yanking at the handle. 

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On 8/21/2021 at 11:20 PM, stingerfade said:

Seems like it’s possible I need to really work on patience in transition to allow these moves I’m trying to have time to happen. (all of these videos I’m aware and that’s why I’m asking the feels because I know that I’m supposed to do all these lol) but I’m very very quick from the top…..I’ve always been a smaller guy so ingrained a rip it mentality to keep up which doesn’t work but the male ego won’t let me NOT just rip it from the top. At the range I swing smooth from the top and rip it way further but that dame brain keeps getting in my way….hmmm great discussion!!

Stacking means bumping hips out to the left so that your core is over your left leg, and working rotational. I’ll re-state that the head should not be stuck over the left leg, it should be returned to the ball position before starting the swing. Typically this will force your shoulder alignment more to the right,Making an inside swing path a bit more natural. Ball position should be forward of center typically, as it will promote the body reacting in a way that forces the path in to out towards the ball. 
 

 It allows you to get away with “quick” to a certain extent, because the path is somewhat predetermined by the way your body is pre-positioned, Making it difficult to come severely over the top if done correctly, as far as I know. and because it would be very difficult to shift your weight severely to the right during the swing if done correctly, if you get quick, the chances of you hitting it very heavy/fat are slim. 
 

so that’s my advice for “feels”, Is to not get addicted to trying to find a feel for the hand path on the downswing. I find controlling the path with the hands and arms leads to exactly what you’re describing, quick, and hard to control all variables. I like to let hip rotation and proper set up determine my feels. Minimize what I have to think about, and create feels that lead to a nice path, for me. 
 

This is just one student, relating what one teacher has taught them, that exponentially increased their skill level in a short amount of time (seconds/minutes), after struggling with multiple other coaches for years.  Your mileage may vary

Edited by extrastiff
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On 8/21/2021 at 8:08 PM, stingerfade said:

Thanks it’s funny there’s a Chris Ryan video using the water skier visual but a little differently. Thanks for the advice but as I said initially that intent of “just rotate” is a disaster for me because my shoulders just take over when they should be more passive. When I think “rotate from the ground up” me arms get left behind and it’s high right spin city. 
 

basically there’s the Justin rose video where he feels the back to the target as the arms drop in front. My question is how do you accomplish that without forcibly pulling down the handle? 

Just no matter what, I think forcibly pulling down on the handle is a recipe for disaster for someone that suggests their shoulders are already too involved in initiating path and tempo. 
 

When people say just rotate, you need to absolutely connect your hands to your hips. They need to rotate together, and then the downswing can only be initiated by the hips. If you can get those two feels, slow rotation of the hips back, as well as firing the hips to initiate the downswing, then you are in the realm of “just rotate”. Combine that with a stack, and you really don’t have to think about much else in my opinion

Radspeed 8, 13.5, 17.5/hzrdusgreentx                                                           Radspeed 21/tz4100m5+
Utility one length 3,4 iron/mmt105tx
                                                              Forged one length 6-9/x100 wedge onyx

vokey 46*8, 54*8, 62*8/s400 wedge onyx                                                    phantom x5/stabilitytour

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8 hours ago, golfie1 said:

Two possibilities. 1 maybe you are just trying to swing too hard with the driver and getting out of sequence let your body react.

 

2. maybe throwing in the wrong direction with the driver. As an experiment try throwing the driver Club head  straight-up which moves your arms faster and further ahead.

Yea it does feel like I’m throwing the driver in a different direction than irons. It’s like the length of the shaft compared to day a 6 iron somehow makes it harder 

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