He may not know the Rules: what would you do?

[charli]

When he makes one of these “mistakes” you say that’s your last warning next time it’s a penalty. If you don’t want the confrontation well then ignore it and play your game. If you can’t do that well join him. 

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, charli said:

When he makes one of these “mistakes” you say that’s your last warning next time it’s a penalty. If you don’t want the confrontation well then ignore it and play your game. If you can’t do that well join him. 

No such thing as a "warning".  It would be ruled as agreeing to waive a penalty that was known to apply and result in both players being dq'd.

It is okay to ignore it without saying anything to your opponent.

[sailfishchris]

Be passive aggressive about it. Wait for him on the first tee box while reading a hardcopy of the rules. Just look up at him and smile, then slowly lower your gaze down into the rules book again. If you have a yellow highlighter even better. 

[antip]

2 hours ago, sailfishchris said:

Be passive aggressive about it. Wait for him on the first tee box while reading a hardcopy of the rules. Just look up at him and smile, then slowly lower your gaze down into the rules book again. If you have a yellow highlighter even better. 

Or a "Rules Official" logo-ed hat and shirt......

[sui generis]

9 hours ago, rogolf said:

No such thing as a "warning".  It would be ruled as agreeing to waive a penalty that was known to apply and result in both players being dq'd.

It is okay to ignore it without saying anything to your opponent.

 

In match play, surely timing of the "warning" is relevant. If a player elects to silently ignore a breach by his opponent, he may, after the next hole has begun, issue that "warning."

[rogolf]

19 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

In match play, surely timing of the "warning" is relevant. If a player elects to silently ignore a breach by his opponent, he may, after the next hole has begun, issue that "warning."

Understood.

[Dpavs]

Bob needs to learn the rules... but it might be better if you just focus on beating the pants off Bob so you don't have to sweat calling him out.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Dpavs

[antip]

10 hours ago, Dpavs said:

Bob needs to learn the rules... but it might be better if you just focus on beating the pants off Bob so you don't have to sweat calling him out.

That's a good thought, it's a test of golf, not a test of the rules. But if Bob takes actions outside the rules, you can be confident they are not going to be actions that make it harder for him to get the ball in the hole. 'Calling him out' somehow sounds dishonorable, but such breaches are utterly unfair. If I see that action by an opponent (very rare for me, my match play is all with no handicap with better golfers) I'm handling it this way: minor issues that don't threaten the hole result - I wait and point it out after next hole hit off, noting any future breach will mean penalty; major issue (which is either outright cheating or gross ignorance) I'm highly likely to 'call out' on the spot. But if I see the person about to do something really dumb rules-wise, I'm going to alert him it's an impending breach.

[RmoorePE]

My club has had an influx of younger players the past few years and the club championship is really their first exposure to tournament golf. They play in the other team events, but typically with their pre-made teams and so they can stay ignorant of the rules. In the CC they often get some hard lessons from the older guys regarding the ROG. I have found that 90% of people who don't know the rules, generally are appreciative if you tell them before they do something against the rules and sometimes even after, when you tell them the penalty they incurred. I know if I get called out on a rule (doesn't happen much anymore) I typically am appreciative, especially if I am proven wrong.

 

If a player with less rules knowledge is walking up to the ball I try to help out by asking "what are you going to do, what are your thoughts on this, etc". Generally that sorts it quickly.

 

If you see them from a distance and it looks like they are doing something against the rules, but I can't see them due to lay of the land etc I just ask "what happened over there?". If they say what they did and I tell them they have a penalty for that, they generally agree and move on. If they disagree, I just say "that's cool we will note it on the card and talk to the RO after, no big deal, lets have a good time". If they cheat, or lie and I can't see it (even if I suspect something) I don't worry about it. I'm not the cops.

[jimbo123]

2 hours ago, RmoorePE said:

. I have found that 90% of people who don't know the rules, generally are appreciative if you tell them before they do something against the rules

The 10% can be so unpleasant though.  I once had a situation in a competition where a guy hit a terrible tee shot on a par 3 and then a provisional to a foot. A third player in our group saw the first ball in the bushes and offered to retrieve it (all before the player putted out).  I said the first ball was in play.  Fireworks erupted from the guy whose ball it was and no one else knew the rule, but thought he could declare the first ball lost.

 

I didn’t push it at all, just said what I thought was correct and he ignored me and putted out.  He steamed all the way back to the clubhouse (“how dare you suggest I’m a cheat blah blah”), where he found many people including the pro who backed him up.  I remember a single person mumbling quietly that they thought I was correct.  We looked at the rule book and that didn’t help, everyone just said “yeah but you can declare a ball lost”.  
 

The whole thing was very ugly.  Sometimes when I read on here how important it is to call out rules infractions to protect the field, I wonder if people realise how poor the rules knowledge is in the field and how little they care about being protected, at least at club level in some places.  

 

[RmoorePE]

No doubt there are some folk's who's egos will not allow them to be wrong (the other 10%). There are even more who go along to get along (like the the pro who backed him up - he had to know the rule, but was probably more concerned about getting yelled at). You did all you could from your perspective.

 

All he really needed to do was call the "lost" ball "unplayable lie" and you all could get on with your life. In club level golf it is definitely preferable to make the provisional then find out if the first ball is unplayable or lost. If he had found it and then decided to take the unplayable by going back to the tee, it would have slowed down the round.

 

The guy had no right to be steamed, maybe a chance to try to play the ball to get a miracle par? You were actually helping him IMO.

 

I had a friend get a hole in 3 on a provisional shot, the rest of us bolted out of the carts when we got to the green to try and find the original in the woods, and he practically wrestled us back onto the green so we couldn't ,haha.

[denkea]

14 hours ago, RmoorePE said:

No doubt there are some folk's who's egos will not allow them to be wrong (the other 10%). There are even more who go along to get along (like the the pro who backed him up - he had to know the rule, but was probably more concerned about getting yelled at). You did all you could from your perspective.

 

All he really needed to do was call the "lost" ball "unplayable lie" and you all could get on with your life. In club level golf it is definitely preferable to make the provisional then find out if the first ball is unplayable or lost. If he had found it and then decided to take the unplayable by going back to the tee, it would have slowed down the round.

 

The guy had no right to be steamed, maybe a chance to try to play the ball to get a miracle par? You were actually helping him IMO.

 

I had a friend get a hole in 3 on a provisional shot, the rest of us bolted out of the carts when we got to the green to try and find the original in the woods, and he practically wrestled us back onto the green so we couldn't ,haha.

I do believe that once the original ball has been found the Provisional must be abandoned.  He then could take and unplayable and go back to the tee but he can't play the Provisional.

 

Also I don't think you can declare a ball "Lost".  You don't have to look for it but if someone in the group finds it, regardless of what was declared, within 3 minutes then that ball must be played.

[antip]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

I do believe that once the original ball has been found the Provisional must be abandoned.  He then could take and unplayable and go back to the tee but he can't play the Provisional.

 

Also I don't think you can declare a ball "Lost".  You don't have to look for it but if someone in the group finds it, regardless of what was declared, within 3 minutes then that ball must be played.

Agree with your first three sentences. But for the fourth (bolded), it's more complicated than that. If the player or his partner or their caddies do not initiate a search, there is no time limit and the only thing that can take the original ball out of play is for the provisional to be played from closer to the hole than where the original is estimated to be. (We are very deep in the post 2018 golf rules weeds here.)

[RmoorePE]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

Agree with your first three sentences. But for the fourth (bolded), it's more complicated than that. If the player or his partner or their caddies do not initiate a search, there is no time limit and the only thing that can take the original ball out of play is for the provisional to be played from closer to the hole than where the original is estimated to be. (We are very deep in the post 2018 golf rules weeds here.)

So, if a search is not initiated by the golfer then their declaration of a lost ball can stand, even if the ball is found?

 

I qualified my statement with "in club level golf", where pace of play may outweigh going back and hitting a 3rd ball. Almost every club level or low level event at the beginning announcements they want you to play the provisional from the tee and sort it out after the round. Not saying it is right, but definitely happens - and I can at least see the why of it. The golfer would at least need to look at the ball and state it was unplayable and that he would use his provisional 3rd shot. But if antip is right, as long as the golfer doesn't see the ball they can play the provisional?

 

Color me confused.

[Colin L]

17 minutes ago, RmoorePE said:

So, if a search is not initiated by the golfer then their declaration of a lost ball can stand, even if the ball is found?

 

I qualified my statement with "in club level golf", where pace of play may outweigh going back and hitting a 3rd ball. Almost every club level or low level event at the beginning announcements they want you to play the provisional from the tee and sort it out after the round. Not saying it is right, but definitely happens - and I can at least see the why of it. The golfer would at least need to look at the ball and state it was unplayable and that he would use his provisional 3rd shot. But if antip is right, as long as the golfer doesn't see the ball they can play the provisional?

 

Color me confused.

That's most certainly not what Antip is saying.  He was pointing out that a search begins only when the player or caddie starts looking for the ball in the area it is likely to be.  If the player or caddie has not done so, there is no time limit on someone else finding the original and the player being required to play it.  The only action that can put the original out of play is playing the provisional ball from closer to the hole before the original is spotted.   Otherwise, It doesn't matter how long it takes for the original to be seen if the search has not been begun. 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Colin L

[Nels55]

If I remember correctly there was a 'Big Break' show pitting US against Europe and a US guy hole out on his provisional and said that he would not look for the first ball.  The Euros were incredulous that anyone would say that and went and found the first ball forcing him to play it.  Caused some hard feelings!

[Oh Hi Carl]

3 hours ago, denkea said:

I do believe that once the original ball has been found the Provisional must be abandoned.  He then could take and unplayable and go back to the tee but he can't play the Provisional.

 

Also I don't think you can declare a ball "Lost".  You don't have to look for it but if someone in the group finds it, regardless of what was declared, within 3 minutes then that ball must be played.

I don't understand why he couldn't play the provisional.  Is it because he hit the provisional thinking his ball would be lost but once it was found and he wanted to take an unplayable penalty, he had to hit a provisional specifically for the unplayable?  Is it a timing thing, that you can't hit a provisional before you know your ball is unplayable? 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Oh Hi Carl

[Nels55]

17 minutes ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

I don't understand why he couldn't play the provisional.  Is it because he hit the provisional thinking his ball would be lost but once it was found and he wanted to take an unplayable penalty, he had to hit a provisional specifically for the unplayable?  Is it a timing thing, that you can't hit a provisional before you know your ball is unplayable? 

LOL I understand the reasoning and will try to explain.  The reason that you hit a provisional is that you don't know the status of your first ball.  If the first ball is lost or out of bounds then the provisional must be played.  If the first ball is found in bounds then the provisional can no longer be played.  If the first ball is not playable then you must proceed under the unplayable lie rule.  Allowing the provisional to be played in that case would give you too many options and would be not be equitable.  For instance if the provisional was OB then you would use would use the unplayable lie rule.   If the provisional was in a great place then you would probably choose the provisional ball.  Makes sense?  If not hopefully someone else can provide a better explanation!  

[charli]

On 8/25/2021 at 12:23 AM, rogolf said:

No such thing as a "warning".  It would be ruled as agreeing to waive a penalty that was known to apply and result in both players being dq'd.

It is okay to ignore it without saying anything to your opponent.

If he doesn’t actually know he’s doing it then he gets a warning. 

[sui generis]

19 minutes ago, charli said:

If he doesn’t actually know he’s doing it then he gets a warning. 

 

Could you cite the Rule which allows that, please.

[Oh Hi Carl]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

LOL I understand the reasoning and will try to explain.  The reason that you hit a provisional is that you don't know the status of your first ball.  If the first ball is lost or out of bounds then the provisional must be played.  If the first ball is found in bounds then the provisional can no longer be played.  If the first ball is not playable then you must proceed under the unplayable lie rule.  Allowing the provisional to be played in that case would give you too many options and would be not be equitable.  For instance if the provisional was OB then you would use would use the unplayable lie rule.   If the provisional was in a great place then you would probably choose the provisional ball.  Makes sense?  If not hopefully someone else can provide a better explanation!  

Thanks for the explanation and I think I understand what you’re saying. Still, it doesn’t really make sense to me given that one of the options for relief when taking an unplayable is stroke and distance. Playing the provisional is stroke and distance. What’s the problem? (Plus, S&D is generally considered the least favored relief option for an unplayable.)

[Purple Toupee]

11 minutes ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

Thanks for the explanation and I think I understand what you’re saying. Still, it doesn’t really make sense to me given that one of the options for relief when taking an unplayable is stroke and distance. Playing the provisional is stroke and distance. What’s the problem? (Plus, S&D is generally considered the least favored relief option for an unplayable.)

Because it isn’t really fair to decide which relief option you are going to choose when you already know the outcome of one of the choices.

[charli]

39 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Could you cite the Rule which allows that, please.

You’re right if against bob should call him on it all day. I’m also referring to the person that just doesn’t know the rules. Obviously in a big tournament or money match is very different. For bob yes you call him out right away 

[denkea]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

If I remember correctly there was a 'Big Break' show pitting US against Europe and a US guy hole out on his provisional and said that he would not look for the first ball.  The Euros were incredulous that anyone would say that and went and found the first ball forcing him to play it.  Caused some hard feelings!

Don't believe that that is correct.  Once the provisional is holed out that is it. The ball is holed and the score counts.  

So, (correct me Antip) on a par three a players tee shot goes into a place that may make it hard to find the ball.  He then hits a provisional and holes it out.  That's it.  He scores a 3 even if someone finds his original ball.  

Edited August 27, 2021 by denkea

[Oh Hi Carl]

9 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

Because it isn’t really fair to decide which relief option you are going to choose when you already know the outcome of one of the choices.

OK, I get it. That makes sense. Do the rules say he couldn’t proceed that way or is this just the general opinion? 

[RmoorePE]

The provisional is gone as an option once the original ball is located in play.

 

My post that stirred this up was that in many handicap events you may well get away with calling the provisional your response to the unplayable. But it is a breach of the rule. 

 

A monkey wrench would be declaring the ball unplayable from the tee just to save time (meaning you might find it, but know from experience or what you can see, that you will be taking an unplayable). Again, breach of the rules, but in a more friendly format a sure time-saver.

[Pepperturbo]

On 8/21/2021 at 7:57 PM, jobin said:

Would you advise Bob to review the Rules?

If he's a friend, YES, on each mistake.

[Purple Toupee]

47 minutes ago, denkea said:

Don't believe that that is correct.  Once the provisional is holed out that is it. The ball is holed and the score counts.  

So, (correct me Antip) on a par three a players tee shot goes into a place that may make it hard to find the ball.  He then hits a provisional and holes it out.  That's it.  He scores a 3 even if someone finds his original ball.  

Nope

[Purple Toupee]

13 minutes ago, RmoorePE said:

The provisional is gone as an option once the original ball is located in play.

 

My post that stirred this up was that in many handicap events you may well get away with calling the provisional your response to the unplayable. But it is a breach of the rule. 

 

A monkey wrench would be declaring the ball unplayable from the tee just to save time (meaning you might find it, but know from experience or what you can see, that you will be taking an unplayable). Again, breach of the rules, but in a more friendly format a sure time-saver.

Not a breach. You can declare your ball unplayable at any time.

[RmoorePE]

5 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

Not a breach. You can declare your ball unplayable at any time.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, the breach was using the provisional after finding the original and calling it unplayable.