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He may not know the Rules: what would you do?


jobin

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Answer to my previous question:

 

18.3c(3)/1 – Provisional Ball Cannot Serve as Ball in Play if Original Ball Is Unplayable or in Penalty Area

A player is only allowed to play a provisional ball if he or she believes the original ball might be lost outside a penalty area or might be out of bounds. The player may not decide that a second ball he or she is going to play is both a provisional ball in case the original ball is lost outside a penalty area or out of bounds and the ball in play in case the original ball is unplayable or in a penalty area.

If the original ball is found in bounds or is known or virtually certain to be in a penalty area, the provisional ball must be abandoned.

Edited by Oh Hi Carl
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2 hours ago, denkea said:

Don't believe that that is correct.  Once the provisional is holed out that is it. The ball is holed and the score counts.  

So, (correct me Antip) on a par three a players tee shot goes into a place that may make it hard to find the ball.  He then hits a provisional and holes it out.  That's it.  He scores a 3 even if someone finds his original ball.  


I don’t think that’s correct.  The provisional becomes the ball in play when it is lifted from the hole. 

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4 hours ago, denkea said:

Don't believe that that is correct.  Once the provisional is holed out that is it. The ball is holed and the score counts.  

So, (correct me Antip) on a par three a players tee shot goes into a place that may make it hard to find the ball.  He then hits a provisional and holes it out.  That's it.  He scores a 3 even if someone finds his original ball.  

That's not quite right.  In the situation you've described, it's not over until the player picks the ball out of the hole.  If a ball is found before that, the player must proceed to identify the found ball.  If the original is found before the provisional is picked out of the hole, the player must proceed with the original ball.

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13 hours ago, Colin L said:

As Rogolf has confirmed, you're right.  See Interpretation 18.3c(2)/4

 

Interestingly, from the Definition of Hole, we find this:

 

Play of a hole begins from the teeing area and ends when the ball is holed on the putting green (or when the Rules otherwise say the hole is completed).

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play competitive golf.

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On 8/25/2021 at 6:37 PM, antip said:

That's a good thought, it's a test of golf, not a test of the rules. But if Bob takes actions outside the rules, you can be confident they are not going to be actions that make it harder for him to get the ball in the hole. 'Calling him out' somehow sounds dishonorable, but such breaches are utterly unfair. If I see that action by an opponent (very rare for me, my match play is all with no handicap with better golfers) I'm handling it this way: minor issues that don't threaten the hole result - I wait and point it out after next hole hit off, noting any future breach will mean penalty; major issue (which is either outright cheating or gross ignorance) I'm highly likely to 'call out' on the spot. But if I see the person about to do something really dumb rules-wise, I'm going to alert him it's an impending breach.


i like this approach. And most situations clearly fall into the “minor” or “major” categories. But some are not so clear. And no one has a list, right?  
 

(I’m the one who had the thread of a friend putting a mark down next to his tee balls—forward and outside—to visually help his swing path. Which I put clearly in the latter category.)

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9 hours ago, lchang said:


i like this approach. And most situations clearly fall into the “minor” or “major” categories. But some are not so clear. And no one has a list, right?  
 

(I’m the one who had the thread of a friend putting a mark down next to his tee balls—forward and outside—to visually help his swing path. Which I put clearly in the latter category.)

We all have access to a list, it's called the Rules. You are raising subjective aspects and even a 'minor' can be 'major' if it occurs at a critical point.

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5 hours ago, antip said:

We all have access to a list, it's called the Rules. You are raising subjective aspects and even a 'minor' can be 'major' if it occurs at a critical point.


Wait. I was agreeing with you. But are you disagreeing with my agreement?  🤔  I’m definitely confused somewhere along the way here!  

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1 hour ago, lchang said:


Wait. I was agreeing with you. But are you disagreeing with my agreement?  🤔  I’m definitely confused somewhere along the way here!  

I'm totally agreeing with you, just making additional observations - first, my 'list' is the rule book itself and second, even stuff that would normally be thought of as 'minor' can become truly major if they take place at a critical juncture in proceedings.

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8 hours ago, antip said:

I'm totally agreeing with you, just making additional observations - first, my 'list' is the rule book itself and second, even stuff that would normally be thought of as 'minor' can become truly major if they take place at a critical juncture in proceedings.


Ah ok!  What I was trying to say re: the “list” was:  it’s not easy to come up with a list of “major” ones.   And when you said, “the list is the Rules”, I thought you were saying: all violations are major. Which was the opposite of your original point. 
 

So, anyway. I think we are both saying, the ideal approach is we use our own judgment in the moment on which occasions to call out the breach immediately (again, in match play) vs. pointing out as a “teaching opportunity” after the hole is in the books. 

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OP here.  I will bring us up to date on Bob, me and the Rules.   I did notify Bob, via email, about some rules issues on day one and mentioned we must play by the Rules book. He said that match play was unfamiliar to him and welcomed any info, etc.

 

So, then Bob and I met up on the first tee box for our match game.  He asked me specifically what he had done wrong on the previous game and i mentioned esp the pushing the sand with the club head, which i thought was a more important violation than the umbrella against the tropical sun.,

 

Now here is where some new information came to light. I did not mention that Bob and I also played with Tom on day one.  And that Bob and Tom had a private match game going which i did not know about.  So when Bob was in the bunker and pushed the sand around with his club head he had already conceded the hole to Tom and was only taking a practice shot, with no consequences in his match with Tom.

 

So i sort-of apologized to Bob and we pressed on to the next 16 holes (i won).  So everything worked out but i now can see that calling someone out, without having all the info, may not be the best idea.  But, i did  not call Bob out publicly, so i got that right. 

 

And now i ask if, what Bob had done in the bunker, taking that practice shot, was a violation in a match game?  I know it's a penalty in stroke play, but here, in this case the hole was over, no ball in play. Was this sand shot (yes, a ball) a violation, and how/when is is the penalty delivered?

 

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5 minutes ago, jobin said:

OP here.  I will bring us up to date on Bob, me and the Rules.   I did notify Bob, via email, about some rules issues on day one and mentioned we must play by the Rules book. He said that match play was unfamiliar to him and welcomed any info, etc.

 

So, then Bob and I met up on the first tee box for our match game.  He asked me specifically what he had done wrong on the previous game and i mentioned esp the pushing the sand with the club head, which i thought was a more important violation than the umbrella against the tropical sun.,

 

Now here is where some new information came to light. I did not mention that Bob and I also played with Tom on day one.  And that Bob and Tom had a private match game going which i did not know about.  So when Bob was in the bunker and pushed the sand around with his club head he had already conceded the hole to Tom and was only taking a practice shot, with no consequences in his match with Tom.

 

So i sort-of apologized to Bob and we pressed on to the next 16 holes (i won).  So everything worked out but i now can see that calling someone out, without having all the info, may not be the best idea.  But, i did  not call Bob out publicly, so i got that right. 

 

And now i ask if, what Bob had done in the bunker, taking that practice shot, was a violation in a match game?  I know it's a penalty in stroke play, but here, in this case the hole was over, no ball in play. Was this sand shot (yes, a ball) a violation, and how/when is is the penalty delivered?

 

There's actually a yes and no answer to the "is it a breach to play from a bunker after a hole result has been decided in match play" question - but note that is a slightly different question than what you are asking.

 

Based on Bob's words - that he was taking a practice shot from the bunker after the hole was concluded - that is a breach of rule 5.5b, and the penalty is loss of the next hole. That he also fooled around with the sand before playing also makes it very clear that it was a practice stroke.

 

However, if a player is merely playing a stroke from the bunker in playing out the hole whose result has already been decided, then there is no penalty per rule 5.5a. 

 

It can be a fine line there, a very similar activity but a very different rules outcome.

 

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12 hours ago, antip said:

There's actually a yes and no answer to the "is it a breach to play from a bunker after a hole result has been decided in match play" question - but note that is a slightly different question than what you are asking.

 

Based on Bob's words - that he was taking a practice shot from the bunker after the hole was concluded - that is a breach of rule 5.5b, and the penalty is loss of the next hole. That he also fooled around with the sand before playing also makes it very clear that it was a practice stroke.

 

However, if a player is merely playing a stroke from the bunker in playing out the hole whose result has already been decided, then there is no penalty per rule 5.5a. 

 

It can be a fine line there, a very similar activity but a very different rules outcome.

 

I'm confused.  Is there not a conflict in your second and third paragraphs?  Was it a penalty of loss of next hole, or is there no penalty?  

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3 hours ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

I'm confused.  Is there not a conflict in your second and third paragraphs?  Was it a penalty of loss of next hole, or is there no penalty?  

Penalty.  Playing out a hole whose result has been decided is not practice (5.5a makes that clear).  
 

But the player here wasn’t playing out the hole.  Their words (saying they are practising) and actions (touching the sand) make it clear their intent is to get some bunker practice in, not complete the hole.  

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Seems a strange distinction between hitting a sand shot to play out a hole that has been decided and hitting a sand shot to practice.  Isn't hitting the shot when the hole has been decided a form of practice?  Why else would you do that except to practice that sand shot? 

 

I guess the practical difference is if your ball is already in the trap when the hole has been decided, then you can hit it; but if the hole is decided and your ball is not in the trap, you cannot throw it in the trap because you want to practice a sand shot.  Is that a good way of reconciling these two sections? 

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8 minutes ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

Seems a strange distinction between hitting a sand shot to play out a hole that has been decided and hitting a sand shot to practice.  Isn't hitting the shot when the hole has been decided a form of practice?  Why else would you do that except to practice that sand shot? 

 

I guess the practical difference is if your ball is already in the trap when the hole has been decided, then you can hit it; but if the hole is decided and your ball is not in the trap, you cannot throw it in the trap because you want to practice a sand shot.  Is that a good way of reconciling these two sections? 

 

 

I think your last paragraph really gets to the heart of it - there must be a line somewhere, or else people could do anything they want and say they are just “playing out the hole”.  
 

I guess a good test would be, is this person acting like they would if the result of the hole was still undecided, or acting differently? In this case, the guy probably wouldn’t be grounding his club in the sand and incurring a penalty if the hole still mattered, which is good evidence that he’s not just playing out the hole. 

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8 hours ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

I'm confused.  Is there not a conflict in your second and third paragraphs?  Was it a penalty of loss of next hole, or is there no penalty?  

No conflict, the rule requires determination of whether a practice stroke (as the rule defines) has been made. Some behaviours fall clearly one side or the other, others not so much and player integrity may get tested. 

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On 8/24/2021 at 5:52 AM, naval2006 said:

This all probably arises because of the strong recreational approach to golf a lot of people have.  In countries where tournament golf is the soul of the golf activity everybody understands you only play by the rules.  And if a rule is breached in matchplay at any club competition the opposite side just uses the rules book, the player or team gets penalized, they accept it and the match just goes on.  This approach seems so simple that it looks unreal.  It's based on the principle of everybody always playing within the rules of golf.    

 

 

One of the most under appreciated posts ever made on golfwrx. You have so elegantly hit the nail on the head. 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/27/2021 at 11:44 AM, Oh Hi Carl said:

I don't understand why he couldn't play the provisional.  Is it because he hit the provisional thinking his ball would be lost but once it was found and he wanted to take an unplayable penalty, he had to hit a provisional specifically for the unplayable?  Is it a timing thing, that you can't hit a provisional before you know your ball is unplayable? 


"Provisional" means "provided I don't find the first, this is the ball I'm playing".

 

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