Low single digit trying to figure out a bit of inconsistency with fat/thin shots

[rooski]

I’m usually quite good at figuring out what’s going on with my swing but can’t figure out where my inconsistency here is. The irons I’ve got are real old used blades that are 1/4-1/2” inch too long and definitely too heavy for me so potentially could lead to my fat shots? I generally choke up a good amount on them though so figured that might help. Currently waiting on first set of fitted irons and wedges (hurry up Mizuno)

 

I know some folks here are absolute wizards at spotting oddities so would love a look over to see if somebody can spot why I’m hitting fat/thin shots more often than I’d like. I have one inkling but would like some external thoughts

 

including a video of a good 3w, a wormburner 3w, good 6i, and thick chunk 6i

 

thanks for your time 

 

Good 6i - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLb0AlOKwKA
Fat 6i - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1GYkeolHkc

 

 

Good 3w - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsW7AIT4Y_k

Wormburner 3w - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP0SwVWv6Po

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by rooski

[Valtiel]

Your positions are for all intents and purposes pretty identical with the good vs. bad shots from this angle at least. We'd need a clearer shot from a more neutral angle and preferably a face-on shot as well, but the main thing that jumps out to me is that you're pretty flat footed at impact, especially with the 6-iron. This means your weight is taking too long to get on to your front side, leaving too close to being 50/50 weight distribution wise at impact. This will pull your low point back dangerously close to the ball, which gives you a very small margin for error when it comes to when you hit ball and when you hit ground, hence shots of varying quality with aesthetically similar swings. Without the proper weight distribution at impact keeping your low point ahead of the ball, your hands end up getting too involved in determining it, and they generally suck at that. 

You have a lovely smooth swing overall with very few moving parts, your lower body is just a bit sluggish in getting your weight moving back and through the ball leaving you open to these low point issues. Try to work towards getting your weight up into your front side sooner/quicker in the downswing and make sure you don't slide to accomplish this. 👍 

[rooski]

5 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Your positions are for all intents and purposes pretty identical with the good vs. bad shots from this angle at least. We'd need a clearer shot from a more neutral angle and preferably a face-on shot as well, but the main thing that jumps out to me is that you're pretty flat footed at impact, especially with the 6-iron. This means your weight is taking too long to get on to your front side, leaving too close to being 50/50 weight distribution wise at impact. This will pull your low point back dangerously close to the ball, which gives you a very small margin for error when it comes to when you hit ball and when you hit ground, hence shots of varying quality with aesthetically similar swings. Without the proper weight distribution at impact keeping your low point ahead of the ball, your hands end up getting too involved in determining it, and they generally suck at that. 

You have a lovely smooth swing overall with very few moving parts, your lower body is just a bit sluggish in getting your weight moving back and through the ball leaving you open to these low point issues. Try to work towards getting your weight up into your front side sooner/quicker in the downswing and make sure you don't slide to accomplish this. 👍 

 

Thanks a lot for the input. I think you've probably nailed it on the head I hadn't considered the physics of that before. 

 

Do you know of any good drills for me to feel that transfer happen without swaying? I feel confident i could grind it out but am a little bit worried I could turn it into a big sway on accident

 

Bit worried as messing with the weight transfer feels like a swing change that could put me back in the mid 80s for a few rounds before I figure it out lol, definitely worth the effort to mess around with that though

[rooski]

That also totally explains something else I had subconsciously picked up on watching swing videos where something about my follow-through didn't look right to me but couldn't figure out what was causing it.

 

Very evident in the good 6i shot right after impact, I get through the ball well as far as angles go, but since so much weight is still on my back foot there's almost a sort of wall I hit where the weight of the club moving eventually forces me to get that foot off the ground and there's an awkward looking transition there in the follow-through.

 

Particularly obvious here about 3/4 of the way through my follow through -- the flat footedness totally explains what I was seeing. Sweet!
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLb0AlOKwKA?t=3

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by rooski

[Valtiel]

30 minutes ago, rooski said:

 

Thanks a lot for the input. I think you've probably nailed it on the head I hadn't considered the physics of that before. 

 

Do you know of any good drills for me to feel that transfer happen without swaying? I feel confident i could grind it out but am a little bit worried I could turn it into a big sway on accident

 

Bit worried as messing with the weight transfer feels like a swing change that could put me back in the mid 80s for a few rounds before I figure it out lol, definitely worth the effort to mess around with that though

 

24 minutes ago, rooski said:

That also totally explains something else I had subconsciously picked up on watching swing videos where something about my follow-through didn't look right to me but couldn't figure out what was causing it.

 

Very evident in the good 6i shot right after impact, I get through the ball well as far as angles go, but since so much weight is still on my back foot there's almost a sort of wall I hit where the weight of the club moving eventually forces me to get that foot off the ground and there's an awkward looking transition there in the follow-through.

 

Particularly obvious here about 3/4 of the way through my follow through -- the flat footedness totally explains what I was seeing. Sweet!
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLb0AlOKwKA?t=3

 

I'm glad that resonated! When it comes to moving weight, correct rotation is the enemy of sliding, so a feel you could focus on is getting your left hip working back almost like you're trying to get it behind you in transition. If done correctly this can kill two birds with one stone, because you need weight on your front side to get that hip working back. As an exercise to really feel this, try standing with your weight 50/50 and one at a time try to rotate each of your hips back. Your body will naturally shift weight towards the side you want to move, and if you actively restrict your weight shift then you'll notice you can't move your hips much. Try this same thing with various different weight distributions and notice how your ability to rotate your hips follows your weight. If you're then rotating correctly following this concept it will be almost impossible to "slide" too much. There is a certain amount of slide that is normal/necessary, it is just when it happens without any accompanying rotation that you get in to trouble. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Valtiel

[puttnforthe8]

4 hours ago, rooski said:

I’m usually quite good at figuring out what’s going on with my swing but can’t figure out where my inconsistency here is. The irons I’ve got are real old used blades that are 1/4-1/2” inch too long and definitely too heavy for me so potentially could lead to my fat shots? I generally choke up a good amount on them though so figured that might help. Currently waiting on first set of fitted irons and wedges (hurry up Mizuno)

 

I know some folks here are absolute wizards at spotting oddities so would love a look over to see if somebody can spot why I’m hitting fat/thin shots more often than I’d like. I have one inkling but would like some external thoughts

 

including a video of a good 3w, a wormburner 3w, good 6i, and thick chunk 6i

 

thanks for your time 

 

Good 6i - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLb0AlOKwKA
Fat 6i - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1GYkeolHkc

 

 

Good 3w - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsW7AIT4Y_k

Wormburner 3w - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP0SwVWv6Po

 

 

 

This was pretty cool and I thank you for posting.  I really like looking at comparisons and trying to break it down for myself.

 

While I will not disagree with anything others have said; the one thing that stood out to me as I stopped and slowed down the swings was at 4 seconds and 11 seconds good/bad respectively on the 3W.  It just seems you were flatter with the better hit.  Whatever root cause, I am not astute enough to decipher.  But I can tell you, every time I get out of the good flatness spot, bad things happen to me.  

[rooski]

16 minutes ago, puttnforthe8 said:

While I will not disagree with anything others have said; the one thing that stood out to me as I stopped and slowed down the swings was at 4 seconds and 11 seconds good/bad respectively on the 3W.  It just seems you were flatter with the better hit.  Whatever root cause, I am not astute enough to decipher.  But I can tell you, every time I get out of the good flatness spot, bad things happen to me.

 

Let me take a look at this at those timestamps and check it out, interested to see what I'll find

 

appreciate the input

[rooski]

I can maybe very slightly agree that it is more flat in the same position, but I think this is levels of perfection unattainable by human beings.

 

I did notice something interesting during the frame by frame breakdown I was doing after you comment though, which was cool..

 

It probably isn't super noticeable via images, but the spine angle is ever marginally different, maybe just a couple of degrees where I'm standing up a bit more in the swing where I wormburned it.

 

That would explain the few mm of difference in a great shot vs a top, but I don't know if it's possible to ever groove such a thing other than by pure feel.

 

Good swing: 

 

 

Bad swing:

 

[puttnforthe8]

Best of luck bud...I have my own struggle right now and this helped me to keep looking and questioning.

[rooski]

On 8/23/2021 at 5:46 PM, Valtiel said:

If you're then rotating correctly following this concept it will be almost impossible to "slide" too much. There is a certain amount of slide that is normal/necessary, it is just when it happens without any accompanying rotation that you get in to trouble. 

 

Hey Valtiel I had a thought and was interested in your opinion just as far as the physics of the swing goes. I think you maybe would have mentioned this had I posted a front-view, but who knows...

 

I played a practice 9 today and focused on weight transfer, but was finding that to get my weight over to my left side it required a pretty unreasonable amount of aggression and strength. 

 

My dad (who is an extremely accomplished golfer) knew what I was practicing but mentioned that on the iron shots specifically it looked like I had my stance way too wide, outside of my shoulders by at least a good couple of inches. 

 

Once fixing that, my swing certainly "felt" better as far as weight transfer goes. I should have taken comparison videos but didn't have too much time to take extra shots as the course was a bit packed today at twilight.

 

It seems to make sense, but do you think that simply having the stance too wide could be a sole reason for getting stuck on the back foot like I was? 

[Precis1on]

The pressure should be getting back to the left at the end of the backswing, not at the beginning of transition and on the downswing is WAY too late. You'll see it in a lot of face on swing of pros, and the AMG guys did a good video of it. Start at the 6:30 mark if you want to see the action of the pro's hips. At 6:50 they'll comment on how they fall into the left side as the backswing completes. 

 

A drill I've done is to pressure hard on the right foot until I reach 9 o'clock on the backswing, then bring the pressure back to the left foot as I continue rotating the right hip and bring the arms to the top. 

 

 

[Valtiel]

46 minutes ago, rooski said:

 

Hey Valtiel I had a thought and was interested in your opinion just as far as the physics of the swing goes. I think you maybe would have mentioned this had I posted a front-view, but who knows...

 

I played a practice 9 today and focused on weight transfer, but was finding that to get my weight over to my left side it required a pretty unreasonable amount of aggression and strength. 

 

My dad (who is an extremely accomplished golfer) knew what I was practicing but mentioned that on the iron shots specifically it looked like I had my stance way too wide, outside of my shoulders by at least a good couple of inches. 

 

Once fixing that, my swing certainly "felt" better as far as weight transfer goes. I should have taken comparison videos but didn't have too much time to take extra shots as the course was a bit packed today at twilight.

 

It seems to make sense, but do you think that simply having the stance too wide could be a sole reason for getting stuck on the back foot like I was? 

These are all accurate observations, yes. A wide stance will naturally restrict hip rotation and weight shift, especially if you already have a bit of a weight shift problem. This is why a wide stance is usually employed in greenside bunkers as you want your base stable and your low point kept behind the ball. Same deal for players with consistently positive AoA with their drivers as the wider stance helps keep your low point behind the ball to hit up on it. On the flip side, this was a big part of Tiger Woods' changes with Sean Foley in that he narrowed his stance to allow for more rotation, something Foley is a proponent of. Tiger also tended to be more down with his driver during this time as well. 

Definitely mess around with your stance width to find your comfort zone with the goal of getting your lower body pressure forward in transition. 👍

[rooski]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

Same deal for players with consistently positive AoA with their drivers as the wider stance helps keep your low point behind the ball to hit up on it. On the flip side, this was a big part of Tiger Woods' changes with Sean Foley in that he narrowed his stance to allow for more rotation, something Foley is a proponent of. Tiger also tended to be more down with his driver during this time as well. 

 

Very interesting you bring this up specifically. Historically I have been deadly accurate and very long with the driver, but had been regressing into some beginner-level misses lately. 

 

I figured out on the range the same day I took my swing videos that I let my driver stance get way too narrow when I used to stand quite wide and lean back a bit to allow that upwards AoA. Since getting back to the original driver stance, it has already been an entirely different club.

 

I think somehow my stance widths got blended in some contrived attempt to become more consistent and I brought my driver stance too narrow and my iron stance too wide. 

 

Always funny how you can convince yourself that something will make you more consistent where in reality it is sole reason causing the inconsistencies.

 

Thanks again for your continued thoughts. I really think ironing (pun intended) out my stance width will be a final key for the full swing (still need to learn how to make putts if I want to take my scores from 70-72 to 64 though) 

Edited August 25, 2021 by rooski

[rooski]

1 hour ago, Precis1on said:

Start at the 6:30 mark if you want to see the action of the pro's hips. At 6:50 they'll comment on how they fall into the left side as the backswing completes. 

 

Hey Precis1on thanks for taking the time to comment in the thread.

 

That video is excellent and I have found myself watching it a number of times, but after reviewing it again I do think I have this general idea down pretty well subconsciously in my swing.

 

I took a look at all the random swings I have on my phone from the past month or so and I can distinctly see the "drift" that they discuss a bit prior to starting the downswing.

 

As far as I can tell I don't have an issue with losing my spine angle or "humping" at the ball. As discussed with Valtiel just now (before I saw your reply), I think I maybe have created a situation where even with a fundamentally correct hip rotation and weight transfer, I simply can't move enough weight due to the width of my stance. I'm curious to see where that thought takes me  

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, rooski said:

 

Very interesting you bring this up specifically. Historically I have been deadly accurate and very long with the driver, but had been regressing into some beginner-level misses lately. 

 

I figured out on the range the same day I took my swing videos that I let my driver stance get way too narrow when I used to stand quite wide and lean back a bit to allow that upwards AoA. Since getting back to the original driver stance, it has already been an entirely different club.

 

I think somehow my stance widths got blended in some contrived attempt to become more consistent and I brought my driver stance too narrow and my iron stance too wide. 

 

Always funny how you can convince yourself that something will make you more consistent where in reality it is sole reason causing the inconsistencies.

 

Thanks again for your continued thoughts. I really think ironing (pun intended) out my stance width will be a final key for the full swing (still need to learn how to make putts if I want to take my scores from 70-72 to 64 though) 

Yeah that definitely fits, i'm glad this helped put some pieces together. The cool thing is that it becomes much easier to self correct once you identify things like this. What was once a mystery and a source of frustration becomes tangible and bad shots become learning experiences as opposed to sources of anger. The more you experiment and develop your feel for these things (in this case your stance width and how it impact rotation and weight movement) and attach them to the concepts that explain "why", the more you can turn a bad front 9 into simply a bad few holes, and then to a bad hole and even just a bad couple shots. Tiger stopping mid swing was this concept taken to a ludicrous degree, pulling it all the way back to just a split second bad feel within a single swing and shutting the whole thing down. 

Keep us posted how it all goes!

[Precis1on]

9 hours ago, rooski said:

As far as I can tell I don't have an issue with losing my spine angle or "humping" at the ball. As discussed with Valtiel just now (before I saw your reply), I think I maybe have created a situation where even with a fundamentally correct hip rotation and weight transfer, I simply can't move enough weight due to the width of my stance. I'm curious to see where that thought takes me  

 

Fair enough, sometimes it's the simple things :). 

[rooski]

On 8/25/2021 at 2:10 AM, Valtiel said:

Yeah that definitely fits, i'm glad this helped put some pieces together. The cool thing is that it becomes much easier to self correct once you identify things like this. What was once a mystery and a source of frustration becomes tangible and bad shots become learning experiences as opposed to sources of anger. The more you experiment and develop your feel for these things (in this case your stance width and how it impact rotation and weight movement) and attach them to the concepts that explain "why", the more you can turn a bad front 9 into simply a bad few holes, and then to a bad hole and even just a bad couple shots. Tiger stopping mid swing was this concept taken to a ludicrous degree, pulling it all the way back to just a split second bad feel within a single swing and shutting the whole thing down. 

Keep us posted how it all goes!

 

Have put a huge priority lately on letting my weight transfer be a lot looser and more free flowing and have made some really really nice updates to my swing. My buddy took a few videos of me when we went to Bandon for a few employee rounds with our friend and I was still so flatfooted it disgusted me.

 

The last round there I tried to totally let my weight be free and even started letting my left foot lift off the ground on the backswing and after these changes my weight moves so much better during the swing its incredible.

 

Shot a new 18 hole best best of 67 today (although it was a par 68 so not that insane)

 

Got a couple driver swings recorded and you can really see the weight moving around compared to the original videos, had made a huge boost to consistency especially in irons and wedges 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQDBGtJB2Yk

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsibkrDy4hY

 

One thing I have always done and still do in this video that I can't seem to work out is I get way up on my toes during and after impact when I hit a driver. Do you think this is something I should be worried about? I'm almost convinced I should just let it be at this point. I see Bubba and a couple of the other huge hitters doing something similar on tour, so although it seems pretty bad I'm not sure I should care.

 

Also don't make fun of my untucked polo I forgot a belt and it felt so weird I just said yolo and untucked it lol

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by rooski

[Scottbox]

I mean this swing is really, really good. The only thing that might cause the fats is pushing up too quickly with your front foot, which kicks your low point back. It's a great power move with a driver, but it can futz with your low point when you're hitting an iron or a 3-wood. You may want to consider opening up your front foot, at least with your irons and fairway woods off the deck. And perhaps feeling more "around" rather than "up" a bit longer (you'll probably feel like your front leg is bent at impact, which is fine). Another great feel is keeping your lead shoulder down a touch longer, which will feel weird as hell but force you to let your weight stay "down" a millisecond longer before you push up. We're talking tiny degrees, here.

[rooski]

2 hours ago, Scottbox said:

It's a great power move with a driver, but it can futz with your low point when you're hitting an iron or a 3-wood

 

Interestingly enough I don't find that I do that with my irons at all, I only get up on my toes w/ the Driver. I was doing it a bit with the 3w before and you're certainly correct on the low point issues, the only shot I ever had with 3w was topping the ball.

 

I recently decided to just let my driver swing be.. I hit the ball like 320-330 with great accuracy so don't fix what's not broken I suppose.

 

I did most recently make a change to how high I tee'd the ball with driver because I was hitting it super thin a lot of the time as you might imagine, ever since I started teeing it up higher I've been unstoppable though

 

Thanks for the thoughts, I can mess around with those feels you mentioned and see how it goes.. Particularly with fairway woods I think they could be useful for me to engrain

Edited September 19, 2021 by rooski

[rooski]

Dear diary...

 

I really liked this driver swing today, felt really compact and consistent.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp1z5GrShJo

 

[Righty to Lefty]

The difference a fat shot and a well struck one is so minute in actuality that both of those iron swings looked virtually identical but I would suspect that if you were measuring on trackman that you would see that your low point was a few millimeters more forward of the ball on that particular shot that you stuck well.  You have a fantastic swing motion and I would be very reluctant to give that up because you didn't quite get into the proper orientation in relation to the ball on a given shot which is all that hitting a ball fat really is.  Where you are in relation to the ball is the largest factor in the outcome of the shot, but you have to remember that you are a human athlete and not a robot so everything is affecting your ability to replicate any given shot and your body and mind must adjust to each and every shot and give it full attention or details we be missed and performance will begin to suffer.  My suggestion would be to constantly monitor where you set your low point on every shot that you hit because as you progress through any given round or range session you will notice that it will need to move in order to not give up your natural swing motion and maintain leverage on your shots. Hope this in conjunction with all of the other information helps to guide you towards a solution.  R to L 

[rooski]

I've pretty much eliminated the fat/thin problems after fixing my weight transfer and am playing much more consistently than I have before, lots of thanks is due to this thread.

 

After fixing that I've really not got much I'm working on in my swing other than making sure my setup/address is consistent and athletic so I don't get slouched over the ball.

 

Finally got a good DTL video when playing Running Y yesterday (amazing course), and I noticed something fascinating about my swing that I had never looked at or considered.

 

I think I have somehow naturally tended towards a one-plane swing for whatever reason. Not something I ever thought about or attempted but it seems to me that's what I've got going on.

 

That might explain why I only ever hit irons dead straight (barring any gear effect shots). It's almost a bit of an annoying problem to have though, I'm thinking about trying to force myself to pick a shot shape, especially as I'm re-reading Jack Nicklaus' book again and his thoughts on the matter

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by rooski

[rooski]

Got my first lesson in quite a long time with the pro at my new club, and we immediately got to work fixing something that I always saw but never knew how to fix.

 

Pretty radically changing my takeaway and already seeing tons of benefits, hitting it better than ever and having no low point/weight transfer issues anymore.

 

Making sure to keep the clubhead outside of my hands and creating more hand depth in the takeaway. Pretty radically different from before

 

In watching videos from the range today I think I need to be exaggerating it even more as I'm still letting my hands get a little far away from my body and higher than I'd like at the top, definitely not shallowing out as aggressively as I'd like to

 

 

 

 

 

P2 before and after is truly crazy

 

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by rooski