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The Questions in My Mind?


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So I'm about 3 rounds now into reacquainting myself with playing a bit of vintage golf after several years off.  After recovering from my back problems I have played strictly modern at a  poorer level than I used to play.  I had even convinced myself that I needed senior flex graphite in everything because my swing speed had deteriorated so much. 

 

My questions I have are arising from playing what could best be described as a 40 year old set of store line clubs.  We can call it neo-modern because the irons are cavity back and the driver is metal.  The irons are about a club to a club and a half week versus the TM Speedblades irons that I had been playing with previously compete with M flex graphite shafts.

 

How is it that I hit a 40 year old blade like cavity back higher and straighter than the current version of distance iron I was previously using?  Oh and these irons are shafted with Royal Precision FM 5.5 shafts, IOW 130g versus 55g and 5.5 versus 4.0 on the flex scale.

 

How is it that I can hit steel shafted laminate fairway woods higher  and every bit as far as a similar lofted graphite shafted metal wood?  I wouldn't say that dispersion was much different either!

 

How is it that a tiny little foam filled metal driver with a steel shaft can deliver a tee shot further than the highly engineered, high MOI, low spin driver of today in the hands of a guy who probably can't hit 85 mph on Trackman (or similar)?

 

How is it that these low bounce, sharp leading edge wedges of yesteryear are so much easier to get clean contact with than today's high bounce, custom grind, enhanced groove wedges of today?

 

I've read comments on here from various posters who play strictly vintage clubs claim that they can't hit the modern stuff period!  I'm beginning to understand what they're talking about.  These irons are about a club shorter than the moderns and they're also about 5° flatter too.  They have a ton of offset, but they fly true to target without me having to make any compensations.  Modern fitting parameters would suggest that they are completely unsuitable, but the proof on the course says otherwise.  Enquiring minds want to know?

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My problem is LOFT -- Lack of friggin' talent

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Ping G30 4h/5h

Ping G 6-UW

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41 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

Shaft flex is less important than shaft weight

 

Your swing is probably more suited to the heavier shaft

Agreed. Callaway did extensive testing on shaft weight vs flex a few years ago and found that weight was far more important than flex.  Testing was done with an Iron Byron and one of their + handicap fitting staff.

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Club Champion Custom Callaway AI Smoke Max 10*, Aldila Ascent 40 Gram, A Flex

Cleveland Launcher DST 15*, Diamana Red 64 R
TXG Custom  SIM Max 7-wood, Accra FX 140 2.0 M2

TXG Custom Cobra Tech 5-hybrid, KBS TGI 75 R
TXG Custom PXG 0211 6-pw, 1* upright, Recoil E460 R
PXG 0211 GW, 50*, (new version), UST Recoil Dart R
TXG Custom Cleveland CBX 54*, Tour Issue DG Spinner 115 

Ping Glide 4.0 58*, Nippon 115 
TXG Custom Cobra Nova, KBS CT Tour Shaft

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5 hours ago, rgk5 said:

Agreed. Callaway did extensive testing on shaft weight vs flex a few years ago and found that weight was far more important than flex.  Testing was done with an Iron Byron and one of their + handicap fitting staff.

 

Well, that would explain why I have never gotten along particularly well with graphite shafted irons.  Sometimes they're great sometimes it's just awful in terms of quality of strike due to fats and thins.

My problem is LOFT -- Lack of friggin' talent

________________________________________________

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Adams Tight Lies 2.0 3W/7W

Ping G30 4h/5h

Ping G 6-UW

Cleveland CBX Zipcore 56° SW

Cleveland CBX Fullface 60° LW

Odyssey WRX V-Line Versa                          

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1 hour ago, scomac2002 said:

it's time for me to put the moderns in reserve and play the old school kit for an extended period.

Very well said post. I'm keeping my moderns in reserve for late fall and spring golf, when the weather and extra clothing restrict my swing.

When it's warm though, the vintage clubs shine.

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7 hours ago, scomac2002 said:

Thinking further on this topic:

 

I seem to be mired in a slump at this time.  I've been playing around with different sets of clubs in an attempt to regain a measure of consistency, but that remains elusive.  I am reminded this morning of an advice that I was given by a hickory player a number of years ago.  When describing his style of play he simply stated that with hickories you learn rather quickly to take what the course gives you.  The scorecard is almost an afterthought in that "par" is an artificial number that reflects the outcome if everything went well in the architect's mind.  The measure of a good round is dealing with the challenges presented as best you can whether that be 3 strokes, 6 strokes or 9.  Professional golf makes the goal appear to be par (or better) and missing that viewed as failure.  It's a sure fire way for a recreational player to learn to hate the game.

 

I'm reminding myself in my recent dalliance with vintage that a good shot is a good shot and a poor one is really no poorer than what happens with a bad strike with modern clubs.  There maybe some advantages with near misses in modern clubs due to engineering refinements, but a big miss is still a big miss.  In fact, potentially a bigger miss depending upon club and circumstances.

 

Upthread, feel was mentioned in a reply and for me I know that the older clubs feel different.  This isn't just a measure of length or lie angle (which is decidedly different), but also a sense of inertia where the clubhead cuts through the turf more readily without having the sensation of having to power through with brute force.

 

The few times that I've taken the vintage clubs out have been more fun and more rewarding than playing with modern, especially when I've been playing so poorly.  I think that it's time for me to put the moderns in reserve and play the old school kit for an extended period.  The important thing will be to think about the game a bit differently and try and work with what I've got on any given day.  After all, this is just a game and if we're not having fun there isn't much incentive to tee the ball up.  Here's to fun!

One of the best posts I've read here!

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Instagram: cold_war_era_golfer 

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Thank you all for your kind words.  😊

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My problem is LOFT -- Lack of friggin' talent

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Adams Tight Lies 2.0 3W/7W

Ping G30 4h/5h

Ping G 6-UW

Cleveland CBX Zipcore 56° SW

Cleveland CBX Fullface 60° LW

Odyssey WRX V-Line Versa                          

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Great thread and heartful posts. I need a different approach myself about now.

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Ping G430 HL 10.5*

Wilson Staff Dyna Power 5 wood
Ping 410 7 wood
XXIO 10 5 Hybrid, Tour Exotics 6 Hybrid
Wilson Staff DynaPower forged 7-GW

Wilson Staff 56*

Wilson Staff 60*

Bettinardi BB0 TRI DASS Skull and Bones 2023 33" 

Like Edberg's forehand, my swing is held together with a paperclip and a rubber band.
 

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I've spent the last few ranges sessions just hitting punch and knockdown shots with a Hogan Redline 7 iron and a Golfcraft 2 iron. I'm not much of a divot taker and I love feeling the ball compressed compared to my normal glancing blow iron swing. I too see the same thing with people going through a full bucket before I get halfway through mine. To each their own I guess. They probably wonder what the heck I am doing.  I always enjoy watching others hitting balls when I am done practicing and cooling off in the car. There are a lot of different golf swings out there. 

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Ping G430 HL 10.5*

Wilson Staff Dyna Power 5 wood
Ping 410 7 wood
XXIO 10 5 Hybrid, Tour Exotics 6 Hybrid
Wilson Staff DynaPower forged 7-GW

Wilson Staff 56*

Wilson Staff 60*

Bettinardi BB0 TRI DASS Skull and Bones 2023 33" 

Like Edberg's forehand, my swing is held together with a paperclip and a rubber band.
 

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4 hours ago, Woodridge said:

I've spent the last few ranges sessions just hitting punch and knockdown shots with a Hogan Redline 7 iron and a Golfcraft 2 iron. I'm not much of a divot taker and I love feeling the ball compressed compared to my normal glancing blow iron swing. I too see the same thing with people going through a full bucket before I get halfway through mine. To each their own I guess. They probably wonder what the heck I am doing.  I always enjoy watching others hitting balls when I am done practicing and cooling off in the car. There are a lot of different golf swings out there. 

The way I got my attitude of " There is not one etched in stone way to swing or properly play this game" was being the starter on the first tee at the course my old man ran. At my old course which was somewhat tourist based I would hit balls early and then sit on a bench in the shade smoking a cigar and drinking coffee watching the tourons hit. Yep I have also seen some different swings over the years

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Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 4 thru PW 1985 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex #2 shafts

SW -- Cleveland 588 56* Shaft Unknown

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter -- Cleveland Designed By 8802 style

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7 hours ago, scomac2002 said:

 

That's one of the things I miss from my old golf course job:  sitting in the starter's hut and watching each group tee off.  Every once in a while a player would come through and it was obvious on the first swing.  The first practice swing in fact.  As for the rest of us we're all pretty much the same with our own concocted swings be that as it may.  Some could play quite effectively if they were consistent, but the rest of us always struggle with the dreaded foe of repeatability.  Perhaps the biggest peeve was those hackers that would wait for the 1st green to clear before teeing off assuming that on the first swing of the day they could produce a 300 yard drive.  More often than not it would barely make it to the fairway... 🙄  (FWIW, I never saw anyone drive the green on that hole in 10 years of working.)

At my current home course they have a patio over looks a small pond. But you also have a great view of the 10th hole. when I was recovering I would putt on the putting green about 5 balls worth and sit down and look watch people tee off on 10. Came upon a conclusion or maybe a personal observation--- Darn near every one can hit a modern driver except most of these young guys that try to kill it. Most guys our age and older hit the modern Toyota on a stick driver resaonably well. Cant for the life of me can get any of our members to try to hit one of my persimmon drivers though. 

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Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 4 thru PW 1985 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex #2 shafts

SW -- Cleveland 588 56* Shaft Unknown

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter -- Cleveland Designed By 8802 style

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With deference to the premise of the Classic sub-forum.  No way do I hit a classic/vintage D as good as the modern 460cc D in the bag.  I'm deluding myself thinking I can.  Given my pedestrian skill set, much more consistent being in (or near) the fairway with acceptable relative distance.  A classic, steel shafted wood D requires a near perfect center face ball strike to achieve anything approaching similar results.  While it's fun to take the classics out for a spin, repeatability and reliability is not sufficiently realized to trust them during "prime time" play.  The modernist D being one club in the bag that I pretty darn good, and with a measure of confidence.  When I'm striking the ball about the club face, it still wants to head in a reasonably straight direction.  

 

WTS, can get pretty close wielding a Ping E2 D with OG graphite shaft.  Persimmons, all to frequently shafted with the ubiquitous heavy and stiff steel shaft, have become a bridge too far.  

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Laissez les bons temps rouler!

OGA - Mitglied Nummer Sechs

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1 hour ago, Fellaheen51 said:

With deference to the premise of the Classic sub-forum.  No way do I hit a classic/vintage D as good as the modern 460cc D in the bag.  I'm deluding myself thinking I can.  Given my pedestrian skill set, much more consistent being in (or near) the fairway with acceptable relative distance.  A classic, steel shafted wood D requires a near perfect center face ball strike to achieve anything approaching similar results.  While it's fun to take the classics out for a spin, repeatability and reliability is not sufficiently realized to trust them during "prime time" play.  The modernist D being one club in the bag that I pretty darn good, and with a measure of confidence.  When I'm striking the ball about the club face, it still wants to head in a reasonably straight direction.  

 

WTS, can get pretty close wielding a Ping E2 D with OG graphite shaft.  Persimmons, all to frequently shafted with the ubiquitous heavy and stiff steel shaft, have become a bridge too far.  

 

The big headed drivers have changed golf so much. I played a persimmon and blades round a few days ago at a course that opened in 2000. It's a tough layout, but one I know well. I the last time I played it with my modern setup I shot 76, and wasn't even striking the ball that well off the tee.

 

Then I played it with my persimmons in similar conditions last week and shot 87. To be fair, my putting was awful (37 putts, including a 4-putt on the last), and my wedge game was bad because I hadn't practised with the SW in my iron set* for months, but the biggest difference was the tee game.

 

With the modern stuff, even though I was not striking it very well, I was still getting distance, but with the persimmon, a mishit is just punished so much more. I used the 3-wood off the tee a lot, because I could get more out of it on a slightly off-centre shot, but that meant hitting a longer iron into the green. Hitting the driver was huge risk; if I nailed it, fine, but a mishit and my ball would go nowhere. 

 

An 11 shot difference. Now, my putting and wedge play account at least 6 or 7 of those shots (33 putts vs. 37). But the modern driver is a game changer. 

 

 

*Mizuno MS-7. Took them out on a whim without any practise, and struggled getting the distance right all day😂 I think the SW is 55 degrees, whereas in my modern set I have a 57* wedge. That would explain why so many of my approach wedge shots were always half a club too long....

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1 hour ago, Fellaheen51 said:

No way do I hit a classic/vintage D as good as the modern 460cc D in the bag.  I'm deluding myself thinking I can.  Given my pedestrian skill set, much more consistent being in (or near) the fairway with acceptable relative distance.

 

I don't think that any of us under under any illusions with respect to hitting a persimmon driver.  For my vintage rounds the 3W is the preferred tee club even though I have a small headed metal driver.  The miss hits are just punished way too heavily.  It's fine if you have an open tee shot on a long hole and the added distance on a well struck ball could make a difference, but if there's trouble, best to avoid at all costs.

 

That said, I haven't driven the ball well for a very long time, even with the benefit of modern, high MOI heads and graphite shafts.  I have developed a tendency to hit a knuckle ball with that club and the ball just tumbles out of the sky.  I'm hoping that going back to a higher spin head from earlier driver tech might help along with a harder ball that will help to generate more ball speed.  We'll see if that pays dividends or is just another fool's errand.

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My problem is LOFT -- Lack of friggin' talent

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Ping G30 4h/5h

Ping G 6-UW

Cleveland CBX Zipcore 56° SW

Cleveland CBX Fullface 60° LW

Odyssey WRX V-Line Versa                          

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45 minutes ago, scomac2002 said:

 

I don't think that any of us under under any illusions with respect to hitting a persimmon driver.  For my vintage rounds the 3W is the preferred tee club even though I have a small headed metal driver.  The miss hits are just punished way too heavily.  It's fine if you have an open tee shot on a long hole and the added distance on a well struck ball could make a difference, but if there's trouble, best to avoid at all costs.

 

That said, I haven't driven the ball well for a very long time, even with the benefit of modern, high MOI heads and graphite shafts.  I have developed a tendency to hit a knuckle ball with that club and the ball just tumbles out of the sky.  I'm hoping that going back to a higher spin head from earlier driver tech might help along with a harder ball that will help to generate more ball speed.  We'll see if that pays dividends or is just another fool's errand.

 

Knuckle ball...you have my empathy and my sympathy. I am still fighting a smother hook. Nowhere near as bad as two years ago, but it's still there. 

 

As for the bolded part, exactly

 

I remember reading golf magazines back in the persimmon days that frequently ran articles urging amateurs to drop the driver, or avoid hitting it off the first tee. Now, modern drivers are the easiest club to hit. 

 

The advice used to be "take a 3w off the first tee". Now, the driver is the go-to club.

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1 hour ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

The advice used to be "take a 3w off the first tee". Now, the driver is the go-to club.

 

I still hit 3W off the first tee even with my modern set.  I've even used a hybrid if I've been in a particularly tough patch swing wise.  I play my best golf when the driver gets used about 4 times a round or less.

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My problem is LOFT -- Lack of friggin' talent

________________________________________________

Cobra F-Max Airspeed 10.5°

Adams Tight Lies 2.0 3W/7W

Ping G30 4h/5h

Ping G 6-UW

Cleveland CBX Zipcore 56° SW

Cleveland CBX Fullface 60° LW

Odyssey WRX V-Line Versa                          

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58 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

 Find yourself a persimmon 1 1/2 driver- The big problem is the new balls don't spin and are harder than balata

 

I have this one

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174775368874?hash=item28b16c7caa:g:VRsAAOSwdz5gpmUH

 

That's an interesting looking driver, especially the insert. My 3w is long for a 3w, so it just about does the job. I have a couple of 2-woods as well which I ought to take out more, but I find they play closer to a driver than a 3w.

 

Balls are always a bit of a problem with persimmon, aren't they? I have some wound surlyns which I sometimes use, but I don't have a huge stock. I also some balatas, but again, not a huge stock.

 

 

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13 hours ago, scomac2002 said:

 

I still hit 3W off the first tee even with my modern set.  I've even used a hybrid if I've been in a particularly tough patch swing wise.  I play my best golf when the driver gets used about 4 times a round or less.

 

It really depends on the hole for me. With my modern set, I hit my strongest fairway wood (4w or 5w) off the tee a lot. I reckon I probably use the driver about 6 or 7 times a round, but it depends a lot on the course. 

 

One course I play, the driver is the better club off the first hole because I'm more certain of clearing the OB that runs up the right side for the first 200 yards or so.

 

Now, back when I was a junior, the opening hole, a short par 4, featured a shot across a valley. There was a risk/reward, in that a good tee-shot with a driver or 3w could clear the trees (and OB) on a dogleg left, but I usually played safe and hit a 4i straight over the valley to leave a pitch to the green. Seemed straightforward to me back then.

 

I'd hate to have that 4i shot today to start my round. Although with my modern set now, I'd be hitting my 23* hybrid, so it wouldn't be so hard. Didn't have that option when I was younger.

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