Is PXG going out of business?

[jeffrey r]

4 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

I can tell you haven’t listened to Parsons talk about the company or read other comments in this thread or others about why they can discount prices.

 

The initial price range was to recoup costs for what it took to get the business up and running to include everything needed to actually make the clubs. He said himself for the gen2 driver that he lowered the price at release because they recouped all the money and he was giving back to the consumer. They switched to a dtc brand with gen3 and now control distribution and can lower the costs. They also carry a lot more stock than other brands and they Are carrying older models that allows them to sell those at lower prices than the original offering.

 

Its a smart business decision. They got companies to raise their prices then they drop theirs a bit. They come out with the 0211 and charge less than everyone else. With the lack of golf club inventory that most brands are experiencing pxg isn’t other than with shafts. They’ve been shipping clubs out within a week for most heads while others are backorder for 3+ months

 

 

 

 

And at the end of the day, it's like, ok where's the problem for the consumer? We complain when the prices are high, and then complain when the prices are low? 

 

Those of us without an axe to grind with PXG, should have no issues with their current direction. Quality golf clubs, generally built and shipped quickly, at lower prices in a lot of cases relative to their competition.  I simply don't see a problem with that. Anyone who chooses to pay $3-4k for a latest gen iron set doesn't have a gun to their head.  And especially now, we all have pretty good visibility into PXG's pricing, and can make informed decisions.

 

My set of Gen2 P with Steelfibers that I picked up near the end of the line for Gen2, came in at a lower cost than my Pings, and could 100% be in my bag.  Outstanding set of irons.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, jeffrey r said:

 

And at the end of the day, it's like, ok where's the problem for the consumer? We complain when the prices are high, and then complain when the prices are low? 

 

Those of us without an axe to grind with PXG, should have no issues with their current direction. Quality golf clubs, generally built and shipped quickly, at lower prices in a lot of cases relative to their competition.  I simply don't see a problem with that. Anyone who chooses to pay $3-4k for a latest gen iron set doesn't have a gun to their head.  And especially now, we all have pretty good visibility into PXG's pricing, and can make informed decisions.

 

My set of Gen2 P with Steelfibers that I picked up near the end of the line for Gen2, came in at a lower cost than my Pings, and could 100% be in my bag.  Outstanding set of irons.

Exactly. I bought gen3 0311T earlier in the year. Not long after that the price dropped. Didn’t change how the clubs I ordered performed or have me pissed if I paid more for something.

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

On 10/15/2021 at 2:17 PM, GoGoErky said:

I can tell you haven’t listened to Parsons talk about the company or read other comments in this thread or others about why they can discount prices.

 

The initial price range was to recoup costs for what it took to get the business up and running to include everything needed to actually make the clubs. He said himself for the gen2 driver that he lowered the price at release because they recouped all the money and he was giving back to the consumer. They switched to a dtc brand with gen3 and now control distribution and can lower the costs. They also carry a lot more stock than other brands and they Are carrying older models that allows them to sell those at lower prices than the original offering.

 

Its a smart business decision. They got companies to raise their prices then they drop theirs a bit. They come out with the 0211 and charge less than everyone else. With the lack of golf club inventory that most brands are experiencing pxg isn’t other than with shafts. They’ve been shipping clubs out within a week for most heads while others are backorder for 3+ months

 

 

 

But it isn't necessarily a smart business decision because they will never gain market share over the major OEMs but they had a niche where they were getting away with selling $700 dollar drivers and $500 dollar irons and they should have probably kept it that way. It's a great marketing strategy for him to act like he is doing the customer a favor by charging what the clubs already should have been priced at all along but he sold you a dream that his clubs were ground breaking, and now that it is known that they are not, he reverts back to prices that will hopefully get people to buy. He is already a billionaire, he could have sold the clubs for less from the beginning if he was intending on "giving back to the customer." He might have actually been better off under cutting the price of the OEMs in the beginning and getting the clubs in the hands of as many people as possible instead of making them appear to be super exclusive.  Imagine if your were seeing the first gen clubs in the way they looked, which I thought were really nice, and they were a couple hundred bucks less than OEM models how many would have bought them.   

 

You will never see a Ferrari with and MSRP of 100k because they are not trying to be Volkswagen group or Toyota and sell millions of vehicles....they are going to sell less vehicles at high prices because they want to remain exclusive. Ferrari would sell millions of cars at 100k but their margin would be less.  I wish PXG all the best but they are very unlikely to ever be in any of the Major OEMs class in regards to revenue because they are off to too big of a lead and are too well established.  Just like no company will ever overtake the Pro V1 in market share because they are too far out in front and there simply isn't a likely innovation that would be a big enough catalyst to overtake the Pro V1.  Upon reflection I am not sure whether PXG is doing right or wrong!! We shall see how it plays out !! 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Righty to Lefty

[NoTalentLefty]

4 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

But it isn't necessarily a smart business decision because they will never gain market share over the major OEMs but they had a niche where they were getting away with selling $700 dollar drivers and $500 dollar irons and they should have probably kept it that way. It's a great marketing strategy for him to act like he is doing the customer a favor by charging what the clubs already should have been priced at all along but he sold you a dream that his clubs were ground breaking, and now that it is known that they are not, he reverts back to prices that will hopefully get people to buy. He is already a billionaire, he could have sold the clubs for less from the beginning if we was intending on "giving back to the customer." He might have actually been better off under cutting the price of the OEMs in the beginning and getting the clubs in the hands of as many people as possible instead of making them appear to be super exclusive.  Imagine if your were seeing the first gen clubs in the way they looked, which I thought were really nice, and they were a couple hundred bucks less than OEM models how many would have bought them.   

 

You will never see a Ferrari with and MSRP of 100k because they are not trying to be Volkswagen group or Toyota and sell millions of vehicles....they are going to sell less vehicles at high prices because they want to remain exclusive. Ferrari would sell millions of cars at 100k but their margin would be less.  I wish PXG all the best but they are very unlikely to ever be in any of the Major OEMs class in regards to revenue because they are off to too big of a lead and are too well established.  Just like no company will ever overtake the Pro V1 in market share because they are too far out in front and there simply isn't a likely innovation that would be a big enough catalyst to overtake the Pro V1.  Upon reflection I am not sure whether PXG is doing right or wrong!! We shall see how it plays out !! 

 

 

Glad he didn’t do the Ferrari model but more of a electronic style model.

[Mike_Honcho]

On 10/15/2021 at 8:23 AM, jeffrey r said:

 

And at the end of the day, it's like, ok where's the problem for the consumer? 

 

 

nowhere.  you want clubs for a great price, PXG can provide.  

[DFDLT]

I’ve bought 13 PXG clubs in the last month or so. The cheaper pricing is giving them my share of the market. 

[dan360]

Sure hope they stay in business!   I'm due for something new here soon!

[Ruggnon]

I got fitted for and bought 14 PXG clubs in early July. I went in for the full bag promotion - the gen 3 for $2,999. It just so happened that morning, the promotion had ended…literally. That day…I was quite furious. However, the fitter told me he could still likely get me a full bag (without a hat and golf bag) for around the same price with some latest gen clubs. I was open to that. I got gen 4 driver, gen 4 3 wood, 2-gen 4 hybrids, gen 3 irons (my numbers were significantly better in gen 3 vs gen 4 - 5-P), 3-0311 forged wedges and a battle ready putter for $2,761 for a total of $3,058 after tax and shipping. Compare that say Taylormade right now, I just put 14 clubs of the latest version, similar set up in a cart and I’m at $3,390 before tax and shipping. Titlest about the same - around $3,400 for 14 clubs before tax and shipping. So, in my experience, it was a slightly cheaper way to overhaul my whole bag, fitted to my game, a little bit cheaper than some of the other main stay companies we’re all used to. Another thing I felt like I got with PXG and you’ll hear this quite a bit is customer service. I got an email about a month later saying some prices were adjusted on items I had bought and I now had a $130 credit to be used on whatever I wanted - follow up phone call the next day ensuring I’d received the email and to use the credit before it expired. I’m happy with my PXG experience and absolutely recommend them to anyone who is on the fence. 

[GoGoErky]

22 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

But it isn't necessarily a smart business decision because they will never gain market share over the major OEMs but they had a niche where they were getting away with selling $700 dollar drivers and $500 dollar irons and they should have probably kept it that way.

You would be wise to look at market share and see that PXG is right in line with cobra and Mizuno and ahead of Wilson and iirc Cleveland last year. I have seen any numbers from the first 3 quarters of this year but I expect them

to be about the same

 

 

[4bees]

For anyone that is out here talking about how they cannot compete with the major OEM's and whatnot.  I just got done with a fitting here at my local PGA Superstore.  Great BTW!  And we got onto the subject of PXG since I was fitted for the Gen4 XP's at club champion.  I told him one of the reasons I did my iron fitting at CC is because of the vast array that they have there to choose from.  PXG being one of them.  The fitter at the PGA Store literally said to me, I dont blame you.  PGATSS has apparently approached PXG many times, my fitter reached out to them personally, and asked what it would take for them to be in their stores.  

 

This is the PGATSS asking PXG what it is going to take!  Not the other way around.  PGATSS realizes that they are losing sales directly to PXG and want that revenue.  Here is the answer that was given to me by my fitter:

"They said to us that in order for PXG to be in these stores they will only put a stock set of clubs.  No fitting sessions, nothing.  On top of that they will not let us order anything for the customer.  Instead they only want us to direct the customer to the website.  Its a miracle that they got into CC, and I'm guessing the only reason why is because CC still has to order direct from PXG."  

 

 

Basically PXG knows they are doing just fine and could care less about more exposure.  Whatever marketing they are doing is working, clearly.  Especially when the PGATSS is asking you to come into the store and they are blatantly saying no thanks.  And for the Ferrari analogy, they already know they are the Ferrari of clubs.  But in this industry you cannot make limited number of iron sets/drivers/etc. and then once they are sold out thats it.  You have to have the product for anyone thats willing to buy.  Now all the people that want shiny new things, they pay that initial high price and have no problems with it.  

[nsxguy]

On 10/15/2021 at 7:17 AM, GoGoErky said:

The initial price range was to recoup costs for what it took to get the business up and running to include everything needed to actually make the clubs. He said himself for the gen2 driver that he lowered the price at release because they recouped all the money and he was giving back to the consumer.

 

 

Sure

 

"Bear with me folks. I want to charge customers more in the beginning so I can get my company up and running.

 

THEN I can lower the prices to what they should be."

 

 

 

[LUXOR54]

13 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Sure

 

"Bear with me folks. I want to charge customers more in the beginning so I can get my company up and running.

 

THEN I can lower the prices to what they should be."

 

 

 

Isn't that how a lot of manufactures start out though? Someones gotta pay for the equipment, CNC, forging dies, processing and whatnot. Once the company expands enough to acquire their own equipment cost of production goes down because they're able to do it in house, cut out the outsourcing and external processes, leading to less cost going into the product. Lots of small firearms manufacturers started out like that, making extremely expensive military rifles on a small scale, once their demand goes up, they have the money to do the manufacture themselves, leading to increased production and lower prices

[Mike_Honcho]

i don't know if it was answered earlier in this thread or other PXG threads but i still don't know where their clubs are made.  not assembled.  made.  not that it matters to me.  just genuinely curious.

[Lasorcier]

That ia a good question.  I personally assume southeast Asia somewhere until proven otherwise.

[nsxguy]

38 minutes ago, LUXOR54 said:

Isn't that how a lot of manufactures start out though? Someones gotta pay for the equipment, CNC, forging dies, processing and whatnot. Once the company expands enough to acquire their own equipment cost of production goes down because they're able to do it in house, cut out the outsourcing and external processes, leading to less cost going into the product. Lots of small firearms manufacturers started out like that, making extremely expensive military rifles on a small scale, once their demand goes up, they have the money to do the manufacture themselves, leading to increased production and lower prices

 

"A lot" ? I guess you'd have to define "a lot". But no, I don't believe that is typical.

 

The way *I* understand it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

In general, companies offer LOWER prices starting out. You have to get customers to try (and LOVE) your stuff before they become repeat customers. Other than, say a funeral parlor, repeat customers are the life blood of almost any company.

 

In general, your competitor sells for $500 and you sell for $1,000 the consumer says "Whaaaaaaat ?"  and simply keeps doing what they've been doing.

 

However, if your competitor sells for $500 and you sell for $250, "everybody" will at least give you a try. If you truly have a competitive, even superior product, you will eventually be able to bump your prices right up to and over your competitor's.

 

Typically YOU finance your own new business,,,,,,,,,,,,,, UNLESS you can sell pieces of your new venture to partners BEFORE your company is viable. That's typically called "venture capital" but you can certainly form a partnership with other, usually much smaller investors, similar to venture capital as well.

 

Your potential customers SELDOM finance your "start up".

 

 

 

 

* - I should state that I've been wrong before,,,,,,, and will be again,,,,,,,,,, but I doubt I am this time.

 

 

 

 

[NoTalentLefty]

Parsons pricing is ingenious right now. It’s going to give him a larger share of the market. Since he’s lowered the price 8 of my 14 clubs in the bag are now PXG. If he continues doing so my whole bag plus the bag itself will be PXG. Love his business savvy. The only thing I’m not doing is getting away from is my Callaway and Titleist  hats. 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Sure

 

"Bear with me folks. I want to charge customers more in the beginning so I can get my company up and running.

 

THEN I can lower the prices to what they should be."

 

 

 

 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikmatuszewski/2019/01/02/pxg-lowers-pricing-for-new-line-of-muscle-car-inspired-woods/?sh=26e4e2416600

[dhen9]

Pioneers take the arrows. The pricing model implemented by PXG is no different than autos. The cool kids who have to have it first pay for it. They're ok with it and they usually understand that when something boutique get to The Masses that values do drop. It works so they use it. 

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikmatuszewski/2019/01/02/pxg-lowers-pricing-for-new-line-of-muscle-car-inspired-woods/?sh=26e4e2416600

 

Lowering prices and/or introducing new, lower priced lines is irrelevant to the "theory" ol' LUXOR suggested(?) was a typical business start up model.

 

A GREAT one if one can do it but,,,,,,,,,,,,

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, NoTalentLefty said:

Parsons pricing is ingenious right now. It’s going to give him a larger share of the market. Since he’s lowered the price 8 of my 14 clubs in the bag are now PXG. If he continues doing so my whole bag plus the bag itself will be PXG. Love his business savvy. The only thing I’m not doing is getting away from is my Callaway and Titleist  hats. 

 

 

Ingenious ? Selling old, leftover products at discount from the original price because you can't GET full price for them is ingenious ?

 

Otherwise known as "Let's get SOMETHING for this,,,,,,, stuff,,,,,,, before we get STUCK with it".

 

ALL the manufacturers do that. Or alternately(?), they introduce THIS year's stuff and discount LAST year's stuff.

 

Some manufacturers call it "closeout".

 

Some don't call it anything at all. I doubt anyone calls it "ingenious".

[Mike_Honcho]

it's not like he started from scratch and did this.   not to trivialize what he's done but he could/can afford to do this whatever way he wants.  i'm good with how he's doing it.  mostly because it benefits me as a consumer/end user of his product.

[NoTalentLefty]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Ingenious ? Selling old, leftover products at discount from the original price because you can't GET full price for them is ingenious ?

 

Otherwise known as "Let's get SOMETHING for this,,,,,,, stuff,,,,,,, before we get STUCK with it".

 

ALL the manufacturers do that. Or alternately(?), they introduce THIS year's stuff and discount LAST year's stuff.

 

Some manufacturers call it "closeout".

 

Some don't call it anything at all. I doubt anyone calls it "ingenious".

What’s ingenious about it is he lowered the asking price by a greater pct than the competition. 

[llewol007]

No, they are just coming back down to earth. Even people with money will eventually stop buying refaced clubs over and over again. Now they take a small piece of the pie from the bottom feeder companies such as Titleist and Taylormade and of course that cheap company Callaway. 

[NoTalentLefty]

36 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

What’s ingenious about it is he lowered the asking price by a greater pct than the competition. 

Apparently you don’t like PXG

[qtlaw]

All I know is that he gave someone like me (opposite of a club ho) the opportunity to buy his clubs at a reasonable price and incrementally hooked me so that now I have D, 3W and 5-GW PXGs in my bag (just hit my irons and they are soft, solid and feel better than my old forged Mizunos).

[Righty to Lefty]

17 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

You would be wise to look at market share and see that PXG is right in line with cobra and Mizuno and ahead of Wilson and iirc Cleveland last year. I have seen any numbers from the first 3 quarters of this year but I expect them

to be about the same

 

 

And that's where they will stay because they don't produce better woods than Taylormade, Titleist, Ping, or Callaway.  The bottom line is that Drivers move the market and they are going to struggle to ever catch up with big dawg OEMs in market share.  Even if they do produce a competitive driver....they will still struggle to overcome the market dominance of the big four because they had a head start and are much more established.  Now it would be different if they were looking to take over a niche market in the hopes that it will become mainstream...ie Tesla...but they are making golf clubs just like the others, and they simply will never overcome any of the established OEMs. 

 

Case in point...the Wilson Staff FG tour golf balls are every bit as good, better in my opinion, than the Pro V1 and they allow their balls to be deeply discounted where the Pro V1 is never discounted.  It simply doesn't matter because the Wilson ball is just a ball and is nothing ground breaking so people continue to shell out $47 bucks a dozen for Pro Vs when there is a ball the is equivalent that can be had for less than half the price if you wait for them to go on sale. One of two things is true in regards to PXG.  Either their clubs where never premium but they were selling them at premium prices as if they were (likely), or they are premium and the owner decided to just make less off of them to grow the game ( highly unlikely!!) PXG makes good golf clubs...but that isn't good enough to take over the market share.  

 

 

[ilikegolf26]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

And that's where they will stay because they don't produce better woods than Taylormade, Titleist, Ping, or Callaway.  The bottom line is that Drivers move the market and they are going to struggle to ever catch up with big dawg OEMs in market share.  Even if they do produce a competitive driver....they will still struggle to overcome the market dominance of the big four because they had a head start and are much more established.  Now it would be different if they were looking to take over a niche market in the hopes that it will become mainstream...ie Tesla...but they are making golf clubs just like the others, and they simply will never overcome any of the established OEMs. 

 

Case in point...the Wilson Staff FG tour golf balls are every bit as good, better in my opinion, than the Pro V1 and they allow their balls to be deeply discounted where the Pro V1 is never discounted.  It simply doesn't matter because the Wilson ball is just a ball and is nothing ground breaking so people continue to shell out $47 bucks a dozen for Pro Vs when there is a ball the is equivalent that can be had for less than half the price if you wait for them to go on sale. One of two things is true in regards to PXG.  Either their clubs where never premium but they were selling them at premium prices as if they were (likely), or they are premium and the owner decided to just make less off of them to grow the game ( highly unlikely!!) PXG makes good golf clubs...but that isn't good enough to take over the market share.  

 

 

That’s a terrible example. Since you used Tesla as some sort of unrelated example, let’s use Tesla in a hypothetical. What if Tesla’s top engineering teams left Tesla and went to work for Bobs Motors, a new startup specializing in electric cars. Would you say, oh well they’re so far behind they’ll never catch up to Tesla?

 

I just looked at Dicks Sporting Goods (probably the shop most casual players are buying balls at)  and the Wilson Staff ball is the same price as the ProV1. 
https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/p/wilson-staff-model-golf-balls-20wsfustffmdlwht1gbl/20wsfustffmdlwht1gbl

You can also get ProV1s at a pretty nice discount too if you wait until a certain 2-3 week period on March/April every year. 
 

You say PXG makes good clubs make “that isn’t enough to take over market share.”  I think it’s pretty clear from this forum alone that they’ve gained market share, particularly over the last year. You certainly see a lot more PXG clubs in college and amateurs bags now too as they have bag and club deals with several very good college golf programs (SMU, Oklahoma, Oregon, Washington, Vanderbilt, Arizona to name just a few). Personally, I had almost every new Ping driver release going back to the i20. The Gen4 0811X is a better driver for me than the Ping G410 or 425 at almost half the price. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by ilikegolf26

[GoGoErky]

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

And that's where they will stay because they don't produce better woods than Taylormade, Titleist, Ping, or Callaway.  The bottom line is that Drivers move the market and they are going to struggle to ever catch up with big dawg OEMs in market share.  Even if they do produce a competitive driver....they will still struggle to overcome the market dominance of the big four because they had a head start and are much more established.  Now it would be different if they were looking to take over a niche market in the hopes that it will become mainstream...ie Tesla...but they are making golf clubs just like the others, and they simply will never overcome any of the established OEMs. 

I’m pretty sure Bob talked about he didn’t get into the business for market share. He wanted to create a product for people that weren’t concerned with the cost of a product that was top notch. Not debating people’s thoughts on how good or bad the product is.

 

He created that product and people

bought it to the point that after about 5 years from the start they paid off the initial startup costs. Bob unlike the brand you mentioned doesn’t have anyone to answer to. He doesn't have to appease a board, he’s got nobody saying we are or aren’t getting enough market share and need to change things up. He’s not in release schedules. He’s doing his own thing and in the mean time has gained market share while doing things his way. That much market share is worth quite a lot of money. There’s lots of golf brands that would love to have 3-4% of market share. 
 

Way too many people thing pxg is trying to be lie every other brand or has to do things like every other brand. That’s not Parsons approach.

 

I won’t post the link but you and some others should check out the no putts given podcast with him as a guest host and hear what he has to say about his approach to the business 

 

[4bees]

13 hours ago, llewol007 said:

No, they are just coming back down to earth. Even people with money will eventually stop buying refaced clubs over and over again. Now they take a small piece of the pie from the bottom feeder companies such as Titleist and Taylormade and of course that cheap company Callaway. 

I think I understand what you are saying, but let me ask the question.  You are saying that the big four are making refaced clubs each year and selling them?  Hence the P770's to 790's.  Because I know that PXG is not "refacing" their irons.  Just wanted to clarify.

[DFDLT]

There was this chicken sandwich place that had a very basic menu and even decided to not be open on Sundays.  The “experts” never thought they would gain much market share.  They were wrong.  Apparently customer service and a good product can cause someone to be 50th in line in the drive-up. This company that I won’t name is also privately owned and can make their own rules.