Volunteering public information

[crcraig]

Scenario: Stroke play, but players A & B are also playing a match (bad idea, I know, but it happens).  Hole in question has a stream crossing the fairway in the driving area that is not visible from the tee.

 

I am player C, hitting third off the tee. I have played the course once and I have a GPS device, so I know about the stream.  I am engrossed in determining what club to lay up with, and don't think to mention the stream (which is obviously public information) to anyone.  This was our 7th hole, and I believe I had mentioned one other blind obstacle on a previous hole.

 

Player A tees off with driver, but he's too short to reach the stream anyway, so nothing seems amiss to me.  Player B steps up with driver in hand.  This kind of rings alarm bells in my head, but I don't say anything.  There wasn't a lot of time, but I remember thinking 1) maybe he knows what he's doing and would be annoyed if I stopped him, and 2) his opponent has already hit, would it be fair to say anything at this point?

 

Anyway, he hits what undoubtedly looked to him like a good drive. I go up next with a 3 wood.  After I hit, player D switches from driver to another club and hits, then says to everyone that after he saw my choice of club he double checked and saw the stream on his app. I said something like "yeah, that was probably a wise choice based on the stream up there."

 

You can guess what happened next.  Player B's ball was in the stream, and he lost the hole.  Player B was pissed at me for not saying anything beforehand, and  the rest of the round got pretty icy.  I kind of wanted to say "if only, in 2021, there was some way of seeing a map of the hole and determining what obstacles are out there and how far away they are", but I did not.  In fairness, he did have a laser, but this just shows the shortcomings of laser-only on blind holes that you've never played before.

 

I know I didn't do anything against the rules, but would it have been a) legal and b) ethical to say something once I saw his club choice?  I know it was public information, but does intent count here?  I absolutely would have been pointing out public information because I thought he was about to make a mistake in club selection.  To me that seems dangerously close to advice.  And on top of that, it just didn't seem right to screw his opponent. 

 

[jbrunk]

I don’t compete for anything in golf, but it seems to me there’s a reason why players tee off in a particular order. The latter players naturally have an advantage over those who go first.

 

As for helping player B, if you had done so, player A would have had equal cause to be miffed at you for helping B in their match.

[jimbo123]

Kudos for considering both A’s and B’s interests and also the rules.   I look forward to hearing the answer. 

[Hawkeye77]

If you are telling him to prevent him making an error in club selection you are offering advice. 

[rogolf]

Agree with Hawkeye.  Imo, once you saw the driver in his hand you had lost the opportunity to say anything that would not have influenced his choice of club.

Say it before anyone has selected a club or played from the tee.

[Valtiel]

Kind of you to think about fairness to this degree, but unless there was any agreed upon sharing of GPS data for these situations then you are under no obligation, ESPECIALLY since you had only played the course once before. You aren't some regular who might be expected to give the unfamiliar pointers, you're just a guy with a watch. And like you said, you aren't his freakin' caddy so you have no idea what he is thinking, what his yardages are, or whether or not you'd put him off by bringing any of them into question. This is doubly true since the dude is clearly prone to getting pissy over perceived slights. 

Unless you had put him off previously with gamesmanship antics or similar, he had no right to get all frosty because you didn't hold his hand. 

[jimbo123]

I really struggle with the advice rule.  

I think if player B had asked “any trouble down there” and the OP replied “yes a stream 250 yards away”, that would not be advice, correct? Just public information?  Even though it is clearly being asked and answered with the intent to help with shot selection? 
 

But if the OP offers exactly the same info unprompted, then it’s advice?  
 

Can anyone help clarify where the line is?  

[antip]

The line can be a very wide zone of fuzziness. But if 'facts' are supplied with intent to influence club selection (as in the OP) it is advice, that is what the rule tells us. You could drive yourself nuts worrying over this one without getting much closer to enlightenment.

 

 

[jimbo123]

It says that, but then quickly goes onto exclude public information from advice.  I just don’t really see the point of that exception.  If I give public information without any intent to influence, it wasn’t advice anyway, so there was no need for the exception.  If I give public information with intent to influence, the exception doesn’t count?   So what’s the point of the exception, where does it have any effect?  
 

If there’s no good answer, no worries.  Just want whatever reasoning is available.  
 

 

[antip]

54 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

It says that, but then quickly goes onto exclude public information from advice.  I just don’t really see the point of that exception.  If I give public information without any intent to influence, it wasn’t advice anyway, so there was no need for the exception.  If I give public information with intent to influence, the exception doesn’t count?   So what’s the point of the exception, where does it have any effect?  
 

If there’s no good answer, no worries.  Just want whatever reasoning is available.  
 

 

The exception wording in the definitions guides that you are not in any trouble for asking how far something is, whether there are obstacles and where they are etc. Similarly, when you first get up on the tee playing with folk unfamiliar with the course you can provide information. But you can't step up and say "Bill there's a creek at 250 yards so you'll need to lay off the big dog".

And keep it in context, I'm not aware of any incidents of someone being pinged for breach of the rule. Ever.

[MtlJeff]

Legally i'm not an expert....Ethically, If this was a friendly match for small sums of cash i would have told him and not really thought twice. If player A wants to win like 20$ because of something like this, well, he's probably not my type of person. Even in our own CC's (internal competitions) it's very common for guys to say yardages aloud so their playing partners hear on the tee etc...

 

If this was BIG money, or a tournament that is public or something....I wouldn't have said anything.

[david.c.w]

How does this work since player C (the one who would offer advice), is not in the match between A & B?  C would have been penalized in the 4 man stroke play game but not part of the side bet.  

[sailfishchris]

You're not E.F. Hutton. He's playing a match....he should be aware 

[Abh159]

The rules part of your question has already been answered. As far as the ethical part goes... I wouldn't feel bad about not saying anything to either player. You aren't a part of their match and it's their responsibility to know what a hole entails. 

 

Player B was just mad because he hit it into the creek. If he hadn't then I doubt the conversation would have ever even come up. 

[Augster]

Good on you for not saying anything. That is the right thing to do. 
 

If you knew about the creek you were well within your right, when you got to the teebox, to say, “The GPS says There’s a creek down there about 250” and let each player make up their own mind on how to play the hole. 
 

Once you see a player is going to hit driver, and he really shouldn’t, offering that info is advice. 
 

As a form a gamesmanship in events like this I like to point out all the hazards and OB on each tee and how far to each before the group starts hitting. I also like to announce where each player is in relation to the field when I feel it may “work”. Here nor there. 
 

In general, don’t interfere with a match. Don’t say anything unless asked. Just be a spectator in relation to the match. That’s etiquette. 
 

Lastly, you absolutely should have lit him up about, “If only there were some way to see a map of the hole” then show him the gps, show him the picture on the scorecard, show him (at some courses) the picture on the hole placard, and show him the top down from Google maps. There are MANY ways he could have found out about that creek BEFORE he hit. 
 

Him being icy about it after the fact reveals he’s a complete tool that can’t accept responsibility for his own actions. I hope he lost. 

[Dpavs]

First, you of course were under no obligation to disclose anything.

That said, I think I would lean the other way on this one... in reviewing the definition regarding advice it would appear to me that giving public information is a clear and definitive exception and is not regarded as advice regardless under what circumstances it is given. I would also argue that anytime you provide information such as there is a creek at 240 yards or sand trap on the left at 230, the intent is obviously to aid and assist another player with their club selection or direction of play, so when it comes to public advice... intent is irrelevant. Additionally, I do not see anything specifically in the rules or definitions that would classify public information else wise for any circumstances under which the information is provided. As to whether or not the public information is influential to a players decision or not also appears to be irrelevant.

 

 

 

Advice

Any verbal comment or action (such as showing what club was just used to make a stroke) that is intended to influence a player in:

• Choosing a club,

• Making a stroke, or

• Deciding how to play during a hole or round.

But advice does not include public information, such as:

• The location of things on the course such as the hole, the putting green, the fairway, penalty areas, bunkers, or another player’s ball,

• The distance from one point to another, or

• The Rules.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Dpavs

[jimbo123]

 

• 3 hours ago, Dpavs said:.

  That said, I think I would lean the other way on this one... in reviewing the definition regarding advice it would appear to me that giving public information is a clear and definitive exception and is not regarded as advice regardless under what circumstances it is given.

   

It seems that way to me too. What do you think of the Rules making clear this is a penalty though?

• While a player is setting up to hit his or her shot over a large penalty area filled with water, another player in the group comments, "You know the wind is in your face and it's 250 yards to carry that water?"

I’m thinking the exception must be saying something like, you can give public information to assist a player in making their own club selection.  But if you deliver it in a manner which carries an implicit “so you’re using the wrong club”, then that’s a penalty just as if you’d explicitly told them to change clubs.  

[crcraig]

OP here.  Thanks for all the responses.  I'm not surprised that there are a variety of opinions -- even after reading the definition of advice it wasn't clear to me, especially when it's written more from the perspective of a player asking for information, rather than someone volunteering information.

 

A few more tidbits of info based on the comments.  The stroke play tournament involved ~90 players, not just the ones in my group.  The match was a semi-final in a club-wide, season-long event, so it was a fairly big deal.  Player B did indeed lose the match.

 

In the end, I'm quite comfortable with my decision not to intervene, if for no other reason than the fact that one guy had already teed off and couldn't benefit from the information.  Maybe Player B will be motivated to download an app on his phone so he can do his own diligence. Like I told him, "I'm not your caddy or your partner, you shouldn't be relying on me."

 

[Dpavs]

2 hours ago, jimbo123 said:

 

•  

It seems that way to me too. What do you think of the Rules making clear this is a penalty though?

• While a player is setting up to hit his or her shot over a large penalty area filled with water, another player in the group comments, "You know the wind is in your face and it's 250 yards to carry that water?"

I’m thinking the exception must be saying something like, you can give public information to assist a player in making their own club selection.  But if you deliver it in a manner which carries an implicit “so you’re using the wrong club”, then that’s a penalty just as if you’d explicitly told them to change clubs.  

 

The difference I see in the example you presented is that it was information plus advice not simply information. If the player had only stated that there is a water hazard 250 yards that would have been acceptable I believe... but with the addition of the adverse wind conditions (which is not one of the defined permissible information items) to the distance information, we have gone beyond information alone and have crept into trying to influence the players club choice which is of course advice and is not permitted. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Dpavs

[jimbo123]

1 hour ago, Dpavs said:

 

The difference I see in the example you presented is that it was information plus advice not simply information. If the player had only stated that there is a water hazard 250 yards that would have been acceptable I believe... but with the addition of the adverse wind conditions (which is not one of the defined permissible information items) to the distance information, we have gone beyond information alone and have crept into trying to influence the players club choice which is of course advice and is not permitted. 

Certainly agree that the inclusion of the wind reference in the example makes it different from someone purely giving a distance.  

Minor note that the permissible items are just examples.   The rule allows public information, “such as” the things they list.  I think I’ve heard elsewhere that weather and wind from a public data source counts as public information.  Though I agree that the statement “the wind’s in your face” seems a lot more advice-like than just reading out a wind direction.  
 

I still don’t know what to think.  Feels like a bit of a conflict between the wording of the rule, and common sense + the majority expert opinion here!  

[Pfish]

The reason I wouldn’t have said anything even if I thought of it before one of them teed off is because you weren’t part of their match.  As you said it’s sort of weird to have a match and a stroke play thing going in the same group.

[Dpavs]

13 hours ago, jimbo123 said:

Certainly agree that the inclusion of the wind reference in the example makes it different from someone purely giving a distance.  

Minor note that the permissible items are just examples.   The rule allows public information, “such as” the things they list.  I think I’ve heard elsewhere that weather and wind from a public data source counts as public information.  Though I agree that the statement “the wind’s in your face” seems a lot more advice-like than just reading out a wind direction.  
 

I still don’t know what to think.  Feels like a bit of a conflict between the wording of the rule, and common sense + the majority expert opinion here!  

 

I don't think that wind direction is something you can provide to another player except within the exceptions already noted (i.e. from your caddie, playing partner etc.). Why I think that has do with an example cited regarding related acts (see below) wherein wind direction is specifically used to show to related pieces of advice given resulting in one penalty.

 

1.3c(4)/3 – Meaning of Unrelated Acts

Unrelated acts in the context of Rule 1.3c(4) are acts of a player that are of a different type or associated with a different process.

Examples of unrelated acts where multiple penalties apply include:

• Making a practice swing that touches sand in a bunker and bending an overhanging tree branch that interferes with the player’s swing.

• Moving an immovable obstruction that improves the area of the player’s swing and pressing down grass behind the ball.

Examples of related acts where only one penalty applies include:

• Making several practice swings that touch sand in a bunker.

• Asking for two different pieces of advice, such as what club the player used and what the wind direction is, both related to the process of selecting what club to use for the next stroke.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Dpavs

[puttingmatt]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:14 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

If you are telling him to prevent him making an error in club selection you are offering advice. 

And this is the truth. Every player plays the same hole, decision on club choice and course management is up to player, that includes hazards and penalties that can occur. New to a course, look or figure out 

what is required before you swing.

 

[Dpavs]

2 hours ago, puttingmatt said:

And this is the truth. Every player plays the same hole, decision on club choice and course management is up to player, that includes hazards and penalties that can occur. New to a course, look or figure out 

what is required before you swing.

 

 

Can you provide any authority for this... or are you just expressing your opinion on what you would do? I would completely understand if it is the later, the former I am not so sure about.

[puttingmatt]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:10 PM, Dpavs said:

 

Can you provide any authority for this... or are you just expressing your opinion on what you would do? I would completely understand if it is the later, the former I am not so sure about.

This is just my opinion, 

I am not a caddie for said player, so I offer no advice, to anyone. 

Sure you can find the appropriate ruling in the rule book.

In competitions, or even friendly matches, that I play

I offer no advice, I just don't.

Dpavs post above does a good job

Edited September 6, 2021 by puttingmatt

[pingfool]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:21 PM, rogolf said:

Agree with Hawkeye.  Imo, once you saw the driver in his hand you had lost the opportunity to say anything that would not have influenced his choice of club.

Say it before anyone has selected a club or played from the tee.

^
this is the answer. The time for “public information” to be shared should be BEFORE anyone has hit.

any mention of club selection should be taboo

[pingfool]

On 9/3/2021 at 10:30 AM, Augster said: you see a player is going to hit driver, and he really shouldn’t, offering that info is advice. 
 

As a form a gamesmanship in events like this I like to point out all the hazards and OB on each tee and how far to each before the group starts hitting. I also like to announce where each player is in relation to the field when I feel it may “work”. Here nor there. 
 

In general, don’t interfere with a match. Don’t say anything unless asked. Just be a spectator in relation to the match. 

so you don’t interfere with a match….but as a form of gamesmanship you announce hazards, OB, and score info relative to the field. 
 

sounds like a tightrope of etiquette you’re walking. 
 

[Dpavs]

7 hours ago, puttingmatt said:

This is just my opinion, 

I am not a caddie for said player, so I offer no advice, to anyone. 

Sure you can find the appropriate ruling in the rule book.

In competitions, or even friendly matches, that I play

I offer no advice, I just don't.

Dpavs post above does a good job

 

Understood and makes sense. This is very likely one of those situations that even though the rule may allow it, many would lean toward etiquette suggesting the timing is questionable\inappropriate.  👍

[Oh Hi Carl]

I understand that there is a rule in junior golf (or maybe it’s just standard practice) that if your opponent asks what yardage you have on your gps or laser, you are required to provide that info. Makes sense if the purpose is to determine who is away. Anyone have experience with this? Are you allowed to respond: “Sorry, not telling” (or something equally childish)? 

[JohnnyCashForever]

On 9/3/2021 at 10:30 AM, Augster said:

 

As a form a gamesmanship in events like this I like to point out all the hazards and OB on each tee and how far to each before the group starts hitting. I also like to announce where each player is in relation to the field when I feel it may “work”. Here nor there. 

Sorry, but this is so weird that you're admitting this so casually.  It's like someone casually admitting that when they're hungry and short of cash, they stop by a Sheetz and give themselves a 5-finger discount on a Snickers and a bag of peanuts.  Some things are just flat out wrong.