Anyone Have An Idea of What TM’s Driver Plans Are for 2022?

[radiman]

Just now, GMcKelvie said:

Went into a local shop this weekend and asked around to see if any of the staff had a chance to hit it yet. According the a few of the employees a TM rep had been in the week prior and gave the entire staff the chance to hit it. 2 employees mentioned that they took their gamer shafts out of their SIM2 and swapped them into the new head. One claimed 4 more MPH of ball speed and the other claimed 3mph. They claimed they used GCQuad to measure strike location and found that speed gain on like for like shots. 

 

Early days and hard to tell but we shall see. The one claiming 4mph said he gained on average 12 more yards of carry.

Sounds like what my buddy at our shop said.  I am usually pretty tentative to get too excited about the hype train.  I buy new drivers because I want to.  Don't ever really expect huge changes other than maybe better feel or fit.  But, there has been a lot of talk from people who've hit it and hearing it from someone I personally know and trust makes me wonder if maybe some of it may actually be true.

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Long Shot said:

Players who tested it (tour pros) are getting 4-8 mph more ball speed off the face. A regular non tour pro (but very good golfers) had said 4-6 mph for him. The tour pro stats is what TM is claiming, the 4-6 is what the player whom I know who hit are saying.

 

edited for context

The problem with this and every other post that basically says the same thing is that the numbers are given. without. supporting. context. Where is the speed coming from? Were the swing speeds the same but the old driver was less efficient? Was the old driver normal and the new driver magically MORE efficient? Were these speeds an average of total shots hit or literally strike for strike? If so, how were the strikes measured? Everytime someone just drops contextless information like this it reeks of secondhand gossip meant to build hype, and without supporting clubhead speed and strike location data, it is hot air that if true would make the driver illegal.

If the tour pro is swinging 120mph and hitting 180bs then he is NOT hitting 186bs what that same swing. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Valtiel

[radiman]

5 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

The problem with this and every other post that basically says the same thing is that the numbers are given. without. supporting. context. Where is the speed coming from? Were the swing speeds the same but the old driver was less efficient? Was the old driver normal and the new driver magically MORE efficient? Were these speeds an average of total shots hit or literally strike for strike? If so, how were the strikes measured? Everytime someone just drops contextless information like this it reeks of secondhand gossip meant to build hype, and without supporting clubhead speed and strike location data, it is hot air that if true would make the driver illegal.

If the tour pro is swinging 120mph and hitting 180bs then he is NOT hitting 186bs what that same swing. 

They can only share so much.  If the claims hold true, we'll see it once reviews start dropping.  Really looking forward for TXG to break this down.

[dtowngolf]

23 hours ago, Richsgbox said:

Presumably the driver will perform. No doubting that. I'm curious to know what type of feedback we get in terms of sound and feel--more or less feel, if any. 

It sounds good, feels good and performs great. Spin is super low. 

[Richsgbox]

3 minutes ago, dtowngolf said:

It sounds good, feels good and performs great. Spin is super low. 

Are you able to feel where along the face you made impact? What's it shaped like?

[DeCuchi]

13 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

The problem with this and every other post that basically says the same thing is that the numbers are given. without. supporting. context. Where is the speed coming from? Were the swing speeds the same but the old driver was less efficient? Was the old driver normal and the new driver magically MORE efficient? Were these speeds an average of total shots hit or literally strike for strike? If so, how were the strikes measured? Everytime someone just drops contextless information like this it reeks of secondhand gossip meant to build hype, and without supporting clubhead speed and strike location data, it is hot air that if true would make the driver illegal.

If the tour pro is swinging 120mph and hitting 180bs then he is NOT hitting 186bs what that same swing. 

THIS, all of this!

 

On equal speed center strikes, my Adams launch lab keeps up with my Sim2 no problem.  Where the sim stomps the lab is on my toe side miss hits. So on avg the sim performs much better over a number of shots.  I can stomach claims of more ball speed on miss hits at equal speed.  You can't sell me on magic ball speed on center strikes. Unless you are selling improved aerodynamics that's giving people 2 or 3 more mph swing speed.  I'm intrigued by more speed on miss hits, but I don't believe in unicorns.  I'm eagerly awaiting to be proven wrong on this though. 🤣

[Valtiel]

16 minutes ago, radiman said:

They can only share so much.  If the claims hold true, we'll see it once reviews start dropping.  Really looking forward for TXG to break this down.

 

Just now, DeCuchi said:

THIS, all of this!

 

On equal speed center strikes, my Adams launch lab keeps up with my Sim2 no problem.  Where the sim stomps the lab is on my toe side miss hits. So on avg the sim performs much better over a number of shots.  I can stomach claims of more ball speed on miss hits at equal speed.  You can't sell me on magic ball speed on center strikes. Unless you are selling improved aerodynamics that's giving people 2 or 3 more mph swing speed.  I'm intrigued by more speed on miss hits, but I don't believe in unicorns.  I'm eagerly awaiting to be proven wrong on this though. 🤣

Exactly. I can and have absolutely no problem believing that face tech could create on overall net ball speed gain across a selection of shots based on better performing mishits, I DEFINITELY see that with something like my SIM 3w over my older Titleist gamers for example, but if someone is peppering the center of the face then a 4-8mph ball speed increase either means faster swing speed, or a smash factor that would make the driver illegal, there is really no way around that. 

@radiman I'm looking forward to the TXG review as well since we can trust their skills and measurements. I'm willing to bet with Matt's speed and strike patterns that we'll MAYBE see a 1-2mph ball speed increase assuming similar CHS if there is something to this face tech, and that will be based on small gains in slight mishits. 

[radiman]

Just now, Valtiel said:

 

Exactly. I can and have absolutely no problem believing that face tech could create on overall net ball speed gain across a selection of shots based on better performing mishits, I DEFINITELY see that with something like my SIM 3w over my older Titleist gamers for example, but if someone is peppering the center of the face then a 4-8mph ball speed increase either means faster swing speed, or a smash factor that would make the driver illegal, there is really no way around that. 

@radiman I'm looking forward to the TXG review as well since we can trust their skills and measurements. I'm willing to bet with Matt's speed and strike patterns that we'll MAYBE see a 1-2mph ball speed increase assuming similar CHS if there is something to this face tech, and that will be based on small gains in slight mishits. 

Just speculation at this point which I find fun haha.  It's my silly season since I can't golf and the pre-launch hype train is the majority of my golf intake lol.  Could end up being just hype but maybe there is something behind it.  The ball speed retention is what has the majority of my attention.  Over the course of a range session, that alone could definitely improve my AVERAGE ball speed 5+mph if it's that good.  

 

People seem to be getting bent out of shape on some level.  But, some skepticism is necessary to keep expectations realistic and all.  Info is sparse and a lot is just I know a guy who tried it type stuff.  We won't get the full run down until a lot closer to launch which sounds like it's still 2 months out.  Until then, it's just fun to hear.  I haven't personally noticed a level of hype like this since the original Epic line.  

 

Like I said, I am buying this driver.  But, I am hanging onto my Sim just in case.  It's a performer and has earned the right to be forced out of its spot in the bag. 

[Natural1]

All of this talk around the COR test and seemingly "better numbers than allowed" reminds me of Formula 1 engineering... the FIA gives you a box to build in a and a bunch of static tests to conform to. The trick is in passing the static tests while engineering something that performs better in a dynamic sense (on track, at speed). They are successful at this in F1, to an extent... once the other teams see that "something isn't right", protests get filed and often those innovations have to be removed/reverted as they are deemed to fall outside the spirit of the rules, etc..

 

I know nothing about this new TM driver, but I really wonder how this might play out.

[radiman]

1 minute ago, Natural1 said:

All of this talk around the COR test and seemingly "better numbers than allowed" reminds me of Formula 1 engineering... the FIA gives you a box to build in a and a bunch of static tests to conform to. The trick is in passing the static tests while engineering something that performs better in a dynamic sense (on track, at speed). They are successful at this in F1, to an extent... once the other teams see that "something isn't right", protests get filed and often those innovations have to be removed/reverted as they are deemed to fall outside the spirit of the rules, etc..

 

I know nothing about this new TM driver, but I really wonder how this might play out.

That's a good point.  If they somehow figured out a way to work around the COR test, I imagine the governing bodies would have to do something in response.  They're already preparing to dial back distance it seems. 

[NoCalHack]

3 minutes ago, radiman said:

That's a good point.  If they somehow figured out a way to work around the COR test, I imagine the governing bodies would have to do something in response.  They're already preparing to dial back distance it seems. 

 

 

I think the COR test has been manipulated for a long time now.  They used to shoot a ball off the face, if I remember.  Now they bounce some metal thing off the face at slow speeds.  Seems like that could be more easily manipulated and is less reflective of true playing conditions.

[radiman]

1 minute ago, NoCalHack said:

 

 

I think the COR test has been manipulated for a long time now.  They used to shoot a ball off the face, if I remember.  Now they bounce some metal thing off the face at slow speeds.  Seems like that could be more easily manipulated and is less reflective of true playing conditions.

That's what I am thinking too.  And, I remember similar discussions when jailbreak was introduced by Callaway.  

[Valtiel]

15 minutes ago, radiman said:

Just speculation at this point which I find fun haha.  It's my silly season since I can't golf and the pre-launch hype train is the majority of my golf intake lol.  Could end up being just hype but maybe there is something behind it.  The ball speed retention is what has the majority of my attention.  Over the course of a range session, that alone could definitely improve my AVERAGE ball speed 5+mph if it's that good.  

 

People seem to be getting bent out of shape on some level.  But, some skepticism is necessary to keep expectations realistic and all.  Info is sparse and a lot is just I know a guy who tried it type stuff.  We won't get the full run down until a lot closer to launch which sounds like it's still 2 months out.  Until then, it's just fun to hear.  I haven't personally noticed a level of hype like this since the original Epic line.  

 

Like I said, I am buying this driver.  But, I am hanging onto my Sim just in case.  It's a performer and has earned the right to be forced out of its spot in the bag. 

I see what you mean, I guess I just feel differently about it since it is the same story every year. Its starts to feel like campaign promises during an election year to me and it actually turns me OFF the product. That's just me though, and that souring obviously goes away if something game changing actually happens, but that is where the other point is. We KNOW where the future of drivers is going more or less, it is in manipulating CG and MOI to further optimize launch conditions to create greater overall distance. The USGA MOI limit has barely been touched, and only by PING and PXG, and vertical CG (to the best of my knowledge) is not regulated. Face tech will play a role in that since lighter, stronger faces will be necessary to further manipulate CG, and hopefully those will create overall ball speed increases based on mishit performance. THAT is all interesting stuff, so when someone claims that pros for seeing improbable ball speed increases it just feels like the same tired sales pitch that is ignoring the ACTUAL cool innovations that will be needed to push drivers forward. 

I guess that is part of the hype formula though. Get people excited who want to believe the hype, and get people cranky so they want to see it disproven. Either way you get eyes on your product, hah. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Valtiel

[radiman]

2 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

I see what you mean, I guess I just feel differently about it since it is the same story every year. Its starts to feel like campaign promises during an election year to me and it actually turns me OFF the product. That's just me though, and that souring obviously goes away if something game changing actually happens, but that is where the other point is. We KNOW where the future of drivers is going more or less, it is in manipulating CG and MOI to further optimize launch conditions to create greater overall distance. The USGA MOI limit has barely been touched, and only by PING and PXG, and vertical CG (to the best of my knowledge) is not regulated. Face tech will play a role in that since lighter, stronger faces will be necessary to further manipulate CG, and hopefully those will create overall ball speed increases based on mishit performance. THAT is all interesting stuff, so when someone claims that pros for seeing improbably ball speed increases it just feels like the same tired sales pitch that is ignoring the ACTUAL cool innovations that will be needed to push drivers forward. 

I guess that is part of the hype formula though. Get people excited who want to believe the hype, and get people cranky so they want to see it disproven. Either way you get eyes on your product, hah. 

For sure, I completely get it and remember many marketing cycles that made some pretty bold claims.  They went carbon for a reason, the CG manipulation will be interesting to see.  How forgiving and stable can they make this new driver.  I am a sucker for golf club tech.  So, when something comes out that is radically different, I want to see what it's all about.  If it's something that forces further innovation from everyone else, then all the better since the number of good options should follow suit.  

 

I guess I am trying to keep an open mind and sift through some of the obvious noise.  

[Long Shot]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

The problem with this and every other post that basically says the same thing is that the numbers are given. without. supporting. context. Where is the speed coming from? Were the swing speeds the same but the old driver was less efficient? Was the old driver normal and the new driver magically MORE efficient? Were these speeds an average of total shots hit or literally strike for strike? If so, how were the strikes measured? Everytime someone just drops contextless information like this it reeks of secondhand gossip meant to build hype, and without supporting clubhead speed and strike location data, it is hot air that if true would make the driver illegal.

If the tour pro is swinging 120mph and hitting 180bs then he is NOT hitting 186bs what that same swing. 

th

The person I know who hit it is a club pro, he swings around 112-114. He plays a TM SIM2 with a Tour AD-HD 60x, he demoed the new head with a similar shaft profile (not sure which he said). Not a lot of info out there on where the speed comes from, guess you will have to wait the 50 or so sleeps to find out. And yes a tour pro can go from 180 to 186 by changing heads if the tech is in the head. 

 

Personally I am skeptical about it may work for me and my miss pattern, especially given development and promises the past few years, and last year manufacturers saying they maxed the heads out and were working on similar speed across the face and forgiveness. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Long Shot

[Long Shot]

2 hours ago, radiman said:

The tour numbers were from a rep I assume?  Likely going to be their marketing numbers they use?

Player testing numbers came from a reliable source, everyone who has seen and/or hit the club had to sign an NDA and this year's NDA was a little different to include more penalties for breach.  

[Double Dodger]

On 11/29/2021 at 9:59 AM, getitdaily said:

I can certainly envision that. 

I can’t. 15 grams from the face by replacing it with carbon? MEH….

[BlkNGld]

45 minutes ago, hoselshot82 said:

so how long before the other OEMs adopt this new tech? Perhaps why we haven’t heard of a g425 replacement. 

 

All depends on who owns the tech behind it and what agreements are in place with respect to cross licensing.

 

If there are no legal impediments, I'd expect others to release similar technology within a year.   

 

But if TM truly has something game changing, they're smart guys and they'll want to assure themselves of some exclusivity.

[Valtiel]

38 minutes ago, Long Shot said:

And yes a tour pro can go from 180 to 186 by changing heads if the tech is in the head. 

Please explain how that would work. 

[Double Dodger]

3 hours ago, Long Shot said:

Players who tested it (tour pros) are getting 4-8 mph more ball speed off the face. A regular non tour pro (but very good golfers) had said 4-6 mph for him. The tour pro stats is what TM is claiming, the 4-6 is what the player whom I know who hit are saying.

 

edited for context

 

So they got 4-6 mph with a nonconforming club? Which it is since it’s not on the conforming list yet. Could I believe that? Oh yes! Absolutely!

[4TheKing614]

Am I the only one who is getting turned off by this whole wait to see what a lot of others are already seeing? For me it makes me feel like @TaylorMadeGolf is a classist or elitists. They would show for 500,000 views they said, so basically we don’t matter. 

The golf golf industry makes me laugh. They do a ton for the people who get free of discounted clubs, but make the guys who buy things full pop wait or get limited options. 
this is my first year since the 90s looking to buy a non Titleist driver. At least I know what cobra and callaway look like....

[radiman]

1 minute ago, 4TheKing614 said:

Am I the only one who is getting turned off by this whole wait to see what a lot of others are already seeing? For me it makes me feel like @TaylorMadeGolf is a classist or elitists. They would show for 500,000 views they said, so basically we don’t matter. 

The golf golf industry makes me laugh. They do a ton for the people who get free of discounted clubs, but make the guys who buy things full pop wait or get limited options. 
this is my first year since the 90s looking to buy a non Titleist driver. At least I know what cobra and callaway look like....

The “others” that are already seeing this are the ones placing orders with taylormade to fill their shops. It’s routine for the reps to go out and show off their goods ahead of time. 
 

You may know what callaway and cobra look like. But I can guarantee you at least Callaway didn’t want those pics coming out. They’ve been getting removed left and right. 
 

If it’s the first time you’ve been paying attention to other releases I understand that it may seem odd. But this song and dance has been happening for years. 

[Lemonde]

3 hours ago, hoselshot82 said:

so how long before the other OEMs adopt this new tech? Perhaps why we haven’t heard of a g425 replacement. 

The G425 was just released.  Ping is at least 2 years away from their next release. 

[4TheKing614]

1 minute ago, radiman said:

The “others” that are already seeing this are the ones placing orders with taylormade to fill their shops. It’s routine for the reps to go out and show off their goods ahead of time. 
 

You may know what callaway and cobra look like. But I can guarantee you at least Callaway didn’t want those pics coming out. They’ve been getting removed left and right. 
 

If it’s the first time you’ve been paying attention to other releases I understand that it may seem odd. But this song and dance has been happening for years. 

Thanks for your response. I am used to it. I just don’t joke that for certain amount of views they will sneak it early. 
 

im also not convinced they don’t like it shared by someone. 
 

Either way the industry is in need of a shift. They take great care of those who play their clubs for free and seemingly care less and less about the people who actually pay for full pop

[radiman]

1 minute ago, 4TheKing614 said:

Thanks for your response. I am used to it. I just don’t joke that for certain amount of views they will sneak it early. 
 

im also not convinced they don’t like it shared by someone. 
 

Either way the industry is in need of a shift. They take great care of those who play their clubs for free and seemingly care less and less about the people who actually pay for full pop

I don't recall the view comment I guess.  I don't doubt that some "leaks" are intentional.  But, I can appreciate what goes into coming up with a marketing campaign, messaging, ads, materials.  It takes time and a lot of moving pieces are involved.  All brands want to be able to control their image and releases as much as possible.  

[4TheKing614]

1 minute ago, radiman said:

I don't recall the view comment I guess.  I don't doubt that some "leaks" are intentional.  But, I can appreciate what goes into coming up with a marketing campaign, messaging, ads, materials.  It takes time and a lot of moving pieces are involved.  All brands want to be able to control their image and releases as much as possible.  

That I can 100 percent agree with 

[Valtiel]

6 minutes ago, radiman said:

I don't recall the view comment I guess.  I don't doubt that some "leaks" are intentional.  But, I can appreciate what goes into coming up with a marketing campaign, messaging, ads, materials.  It takes time and a lot of moving pieces are involved.  All brands want to be able to control their image and releases as much as possible.  

They joked somewhere earlier in the thread that if it got to 500k views that they'd show a sneak peak. I think the thread had somewhere around 87k at the time, so I assume it was a half joke. 

[Long Shot]

55 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Please explain how that would work. 

If you don't know how technology has impacted ball speed in heads, no sense explaining. Just look at the difference in drivers from 20 years ago and increased ball speed today. How did that happen? Some idiots on this forum just want to argue, been a member here for close to 17 years, this is why I hardly post anymore. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Long Shot

[Valtiel]

8 minutes ago, Long Shot said:

If you don't know how technology has impacted ball speed in heads, no sense explaining. Just look at the difference in drivers from 20 years ago and increased ball speed today. How did that happen? Some idiots on this forum just want to argue, been a member here for close to 17 years, this is why I hardly post anymore. 

If YOU actually understood how tech has impacted ball speeds then you wouldn't be so flippant in your answer. If you are referring to AVERAGE ball speeds across a large sample size which includes mishits then yes, tech has increased those numbers over time. It has NOT increased those speeds in the way you are suggesting, which is a pro middling the ball and suddenly getting a 6mph ball speed jump since we aren't talking about a 20y/o driver vs. the new model, we're talking about last year's (or maybe the year before that) model unless you also managed to leave out that detail with your claim as well. Bringing up decades old tech to try to defend your position is irrelevant and moving the goalposts. Give accurate details or stop spreading BS. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Valtiel

[Yoshifan151]

Just saw the driver in person. I'm not a big TM guy but it looks way better than SIM and SIM 2 imo. Much less polarizing and love the sleek look. Customizable colors for the face too but the red honestly doesn't stand out like crazy.