Not Posting Scores

[SkiSchoolPro]

Just noticed that the guy who won our League POY for most $ won hasn't posted a score since 2019. Among other events, he won the 2 round Sr. Club Championship gross and our final event on Wednesday with a 66 net (as a 14+ index based on 2018-19 scores).

 

What would you do?

Edited September 4, 2021 by SkiSchoolPro

[StudentGolfer4]

It depends on your set rules. For gross events I dont think it matters because doesn’t need a handicap. 
 

If one of the rules is you have to have a valid/active handicap then he shouldn’t be allowed to play in any net events because he doesn’t have a handicap. 

[Augster]

This is gross negligence by your handicap chair if he is allowed in anything with a net component. 
 

I’d let the chair know to check his posting and see if you can have his win removed. And then have him removed from the club. 
 

The system only works if everyone posts. There are enough golfers. Get rid of the few that don’t follow the rules and put the rest on notice. Cheating won’t be tolerated. 

[naval2006]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

This is gross negligence by your handicap chair if he is allowed in anything with a net component. 
 

I’d let the chair know to check his posting and see if you can have his win removed. And then have him removed from the club. 
 

The system only works if everyone posts. There are enough golfers. Get rid of the few that don’t follow the rules and put the rest on notice. Cheating won’t be tolerated. 

I don't think a win can be removed for sandbagging.  But I agree the Committee must do something about this player ahead of future net competitions.  

[StudentGolfer4]

By all means, fix it going forward. Even the suggestion of kicking someone out of the club for that is foolish. 
 

The real question is how did whoever makes up the scorecards, ast pro, league organizer, club manager, etc not realize the guy didn’t have a valid handicap. I imagine they search peoples names from a database and not just make up a scorecard with whatever people say their cap is. 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

By all means, fix it going forward. Even the suggestion of kicking someone out of the club for that is foolish. 
 

The real question is how did whoever makes up the scorecards, ast pro, league organizer, club manager, etc not realize the guy didn’t have a valid handicap. I imagine they search peoples names from a database and not just make up a scorecard with whatever people say their cap is. 

Without an inkling that there is something nefarious going on why would they dig deeper than just getting the index from GHIN?  
 This is where peer review comes in to play.

 

1 hour ago, naval2006 said:

I don't think a win can be removed for sandbagging.  But I agree the Committee must do something about this player ahead of future net competitions.  

Absolutely a win could be removed for intentionally not posting scores.

 

How this guy could go over two years with no one noticing is definitely an issue.

[Augster]

1 hour ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

By all means, fix it going forward. Even the suggestion of kicking someone out of the club for that is foolish. 
 

The real question is how did whoever makes up the scorecards, ast pro, league organizer, club manager, etc not realize the guy didn’t have a valid handicap. I imagine they search peoples names from a database and not just make up a scorecard with whatever people say their cap is. 

Really? We’ve had multiple players kicked out of our men’s club for not posting scores. Posting scores is a requirement to be in the club. Nearly everything we do is net. There are warnings and talking-to’s and a player is given many, many chances to change their ways, but some guys just have to cheat. Eventually they get kicked out. 
 

To be clear, I am talking about the actual men’s club. President, vice-president, handicap chair, and the like. The club that hosts events etc. I’m not talking about revoking a guy’s playing privileges at a golf course. The two are independent of each other. Many folks that have club memberships to play a course aren’t in the men’s club. 
 

But the players that are in the men’s club have to post when they play. It’s a requirement. 

[StudentGolfer4]

4 minutes ago, Augster said:

Really? We’ve had multiple players kicked out of our men’s club for not posting scores. Posting scores is a requirement to be in the club. Nearly everything we do is net. There are warnings and talking-to’s and a player is given many, many chances to change their ways, but some guys just have to cheat. Eventually they get kicked out. 
 

To be clear, I am talking about the actual men’s club. President, vice-president, handicap chair, and the like. The club that hosts events etc. I’m not talking about revoking a guy’s playing privileges at a golf course. The two are independent of each other. Many folks that have club memberships to play a course aren’t in the men’s club. 
 

But the players that are in the men’s club have to post when they play. It’s a requirement. 

Ah I gotcha. I read removed from the club and took that to mean Country Club. I was thinking that removal for not posting scores would mean losing out on initiation fees and all that. 

 

@Shilgy they may all be different, but when I search the Indiana handicap database it lists dates for the scores posted and tells you if a players account isn’t active. 

Now that I think about it, it’s possible the guy pays the fee each year to keep his account active and just never posts anything. In that case, I would expect the men’s club manager to ensure scores are being posted. If nothing else, scores from every men’s club event should be entered by the person in charge of the men’s club. 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Ah I gotcha. I read removed from the club and took that to mean Country Club. I was thinking that removal for not posting scores would mean losing out on initiation fees and all that. 

 

@Shilgy they may all be different, but when I search the Indiana handicap database it lists dates for the scores posted and tells you if a players account isn’t active. 

Now that I think about it, it’s possible the guy pays the fee each year to keep his account active and just never posts anything. In that case, I would expect the men’s club manager to ensure scores are being posted. If nothing else, scores from every men’s club event should be entered by the person in charge of the men’s club. 

The askers way to ensure legit posting is to do what we do at my club.  All events are with with scoring on Golf Genius and are posted from there.  In addition many of the daily groups are also playing using the electronic scoring on golf genius and, again, score are posted by the group administrator directly from the app. No players are able to skip posting. No one can post a higher score than actually made.  Everything is on the up and up.

[2bGood]

 

1 hour ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Ah I gotcha. I read removed from the club and took that to mean Country Club. I was thinking that removal for not posting scores would mean losing out on initiation fees and all that. 

 

@Shilgy they may all be different, but when I search the Indiana handicap database it lists dates for the scores posted and tells you if a players account isn’t active. 

Now that I think about it, it’s possible the guy pays the fee each year to keep his account active and just never posts anything. In that case, I would expect the men’s club manager to ensure scores are being posted. If nothing else, scores from every men’s club event should be entered by the person in charge of the men’s club. 

I am sure it different in different systems/places. 

 

Under my RB and at my (golf) club. The clubs pays the dues of individual members. No action required on their part.

 

Pros and handicap chairs, tournament chairs etc also have access to the back end of the handicap system. We can run reports etc from it. You don't go into individual accounts you just run a report with everyones index or already calculated handicap for the tees being played. If is was not flagged for some reason you would not see when the person last posted. 

Edited September 4, 2021 by 2bGood

[2bGood]

4 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

The askers way to ensure legit posting is to do what we do at my club.  All events are with with scoring on Golf Genius and are posted from there.  In addition many of the daily groups are also playing using the electronic scoring on golf genius and, again, score are posted by the group administrator directly from the app. No players are able to skip posting. No one can post a higher score than actually made.  Everything is on the up and up.

So to be clear, a volunteer (or pro) enter the scores into Golf Genius and then uploads from there? So this is the same idea of handing in your card and someone else entering it?

 

We tried  to do hole by hole scoring on phones. It never worked as people like me refused to carry a phone on the course (I was not a total d-bag about it, as I would enter them in when I finished the round), then we had guys that just were not good with the technology and it also got complicated with exchanging score cards or if a player dropped out. In the end good old paper score cards were way less work.

[Shilgy]

Just now, 2bGood said:

So to be clear, a volunteer (or pro) enter the scores into Golf Genius and then uploads from there? So this is the same idea of handing in your card and someone else entering it?

 

We tried  to do hole by hole scoring on phones. It never worked as people like me refused to carry a phone on the course (I was not a total d-bag about it, as I would enter them in when I finished the round), then we had guys that just were not good with the technology and it also got complicated with exchanging score cards or if a player dropped out. In the end good old paper score cards were way less work.

No.  All groups need to have someone enter the scores into the app during play.  And yes, we used to get some excuses like “I don’t carry my phone on the course” and “I don’t like having others see where I stand on the leaderboard “.

 If guys can’t handle that simple task why trust they are able to write the correct number on a scorecard?

[StudentGolfer4]

@Shilgy  what do you guys do for best ball events? The Club I caddy at has been using golf genius for a few years and it often puts us caddies in an odd situation. Partner makes a 4 on hole one. His playing partner has a 10 footer for 5 and picks it up bc he has no reason to finish. What score do you put down? I’m guessing the answer isn’t net double like ESC allows for?
 

This situation happens all the time and I’m not sure the best way to go about it. In this situation both teams had 1 player make birdie. 2 man best ball match play. 2 guys miss just off the green. 2 guys on about 8-10 feet. Both guys chip on but are still away. The guys putting for birdie concede the par putts because they don’t want to give away any lines. What do you write those guys down for? Par because it was concede? Or bogey because the statistical odds of making a putt outside 8 feet is less than 50%?

Maybe the answer is different there because the putts were actually conceded but the type of situation and question around what you mark down remains the same. 
 

The course a lot of my buddies are at started doing golf genius this past year. If a group doesn’t update scores on their phone they are required to stop by the turn and a staff member enters hole by hole scores for everyone. To my knowledge this rarely happens. Usually they make the youngest member in the group so it lol. 

[sui generis]

24 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

The Club I caddy at has been using golf genius for a few years and it often puts us caddies in an odd situation. Partner makes a 4 on hole one. His playing partner has a 10 footer for 5 and picks it up bc he has no reason to finish. What score do you put down? I’m guessing the answer isn’t net double like ESC allows for?. 

 

From the Handicapping Manual. (This sounds complicated, but you'll soon find it's easy and works well.)

 

Most Likely Score The score a player records for handicap purposes for a hole that is started but where the player does not hole out (see Rule 3.3 When a Hole is Started But Player Does Not Hole Out).

 

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

[Shilgy]

52 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

@Shilgy  what do you guys do for best ball events? The Club I caddy at has been using golf genius for a few years and it often puts us caddies in an odd situation. Partner makes a 4 on hole one. His playing partner has a 10 footer for 5 and picks it up bc he has no reason to finish. What score do you put down? I’m guessing the answer isn’t net double like ESC allows for?
 

This situation happens all the time and I’m not sure the best way to go about it. In this situation both teams had 1 player make birdie. 2 man best ball match play. 2 guys miss just off the green. 2 guys on about 8-10 feet. Both guys chip on but are still away. The guys putting for birdie concede the par putts because they don’t want to give away any lines. What do you write those guys down for? Par because it was concede? Or bogey because the statistical odds of making a putt outside 8 feet is less than 50%?

Maybe the answer is different there because the putts were actually conceded but the type of situation and question around what you mark down remains the same. 
 

The course a lot of my buddies are at started doing golf genius this past year. If a group doesn’t update scores on their phone they are required to stop by the turn and a staff member enters hole by hole scores for everyone. To my knowledge this rarely happens. Usually they make the youngest member in the group so it lol. 

To make it even easier than what @sui generisposted…

The correct method when you pick up during a whole is most likely score. 
 

Guidelines are found here.

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

 

Edited to add…the dang link does not go directly to the page I was on. Same think likely happened to @sui generis.

 

Use the link we both provided and scroll down to most likely score.  Click  that and learn the ins and outs.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Shilgy

[Colin L]

The player referred to by the OP would appear to have a valid WHS handicap.  Do  the Terms of the Competition  of the tournaments being referred to include a requirement that entrants have returned scores within a recent period?

[SkiSchoolPro]

To clarify, our league dues cover handicap activation and most events are net. The player in question has an "active" handicap, even if it is based on old scores from 2018-9.

 

Most of the time, we are given pre-printed cards that includes our HC with stroke holes marked. We turn in cards for all league events to the pro shop where they enter them into software that calculates results and dislpays the results to a TV in the restaurant (next to where our handicap computer is located, but I'm not sure if it has been running since the start of Covid). 

 

I am not sure why, but they have never entered our scores into GHIN, but expect us to do so. I think this player skipped league in 2020, but has played more seasons than me and certainly knows he should be entering his scores into GHIN.

 

In the past, we were told to post the club championship as a comp score, but others as reg/home scores.

Edited September 4, 2021 by SkiSchoolPro

[SkiSchoolPro]

11 minutes ago, Colin L said:

The player referred to by the OP would appear to have a valid WHS handicap.  Do  the Terms of the Competition  of the tournaments being referred to include a requirement that entrants have returned scores within a recent period?

No, but doesn't the handicap system require all scores played under the ROG to be turned in?

 

My index is on the high side right now...can I simply stop turning in scores to keep it there? What's the point of daily updates if you go 2 years without turning in scores?

[TwistedSister]

Can we all say it.... B A G G E R !!!!

[TheDominator273]

34 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

To clarify, our league dues cover handicap activation and most events are net. The player in question has an "active" handicap, even if it is based on old scores from 2018-9.

 

Most of the time, we are given pre-printed cards that includes our HC with stroke holes marked. We turn in cards for all league events to the pro shop where they enter them into software that calculates results and dislpays the results to a TV in the restaurant (next to where our handicap computer is located, but I'm not sure if it has been running since the start of Covid). 

 

I am not sure why, but they have never entered our scores into GHIN, but expect us to do so. I think this player skipped league in 2020, but has played more seasons than me and certainly knows he should be entering his scores into GHIN.

 

In the past, we were told to post the club championship as a comp score, but others as reg/home scores.

If the scores are being input by the pro shop, they should be posting scores to GHIN.  It's literally one button within Golf Genius and it posts all scores from the event and makes any necessary ESC adjustments.

[Colin L]

33 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

No, but doesn't the handicap system require all scores played under the ROG to be turned in?

 

My index is on the high side right now...can I simply stop turning in scores to keep it there? What's the point of daily updates if you go 2 years without turning in scores?

Returning scores is an"expectation" not a requirement.  If you stop submitting scores but remain a member of your club then, yes, your index will just stay the same indefinitely and be as valid as that of another player who regularly fulfils the expectation by posting scores.  If you did that, the way to prevent you  from entering handicap competitions is to have a clause in the Terms of the Competition.

[caniac6]

No post, no play. Very simple.

[Colin L]

19 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

No post, no play. Very simple.

The point I'm trying to make is just  that there has to be something specific to prevent someone from playing who has a valid handicap - for example, a clause in the Terms of the Competition or, as described above,  action taken to put a player out of their club for not posting scores.  

 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Colin L

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

To clarify, our league dues cover handicap activation and most events are net. The player in question has an "active" handicap, even if it is based on old scores from 2018-9.

 

Most of the time, we are given pre-printed cards that includes our HC with stroke holes marked. We turn in cards for all league events to the pro shop where they enter them into software that calculates results and dislpays the results to a TV in the restaurant (next to where our handicap computer is located, but I'm not sure if it has been running since the start of Covid). 

 

I am not sure why, but they have never entered our scores into GHIN, but expect us to do so. I think this player skipped league in 2020, but has played more seasons than me and certainly knows he should be entering his scores into GHIN.

 

In the past, we were told to post the club championship as a comp score, but others as reg/home scores.

 

"League", to me anyway, sounds like a fairly informal competition.

 

Do you have a President ? Secretary ? Committee ? Someone should be tasked with making sure the scores get input to GHIN.

 

At my old club the secretary was assigned that duty. He entered all the scores for a "club day" to GHIN. Outside of the club though, the players themselves were expected to enter those scores (or not).

 

I belong to an informal club right now. They use the phone to keep the scores and the results are ready pretty much as the last group comes in.

 

That works pretty well but they keep their "club" handicap separately from GHIN and use only the club handicap for comps so we have to input the day's score into GHIN ourselves.

[Shilgy]

25 minutes ago, Colin L said:

The point I'm trying to make is just  that there has to be something specific to prevent someone from playing who has a valid handicap - for example, a clause in the Terms of the Competition or, as described above,  action taken to put a player out of their club for not posting scores.  

 

 

We get that point and agree. If you read the original post in this thread it sure seems to me we know he has played this year….and not posted any scores for two years.

 

Do you consider that a valid handicap?

[SkiSchoolPro]

36 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

"League", to me anyway, sounds like a fairly informal competition.

 

Do you have a President ? Secretary ? Committee ? Someone should be tasked with making sure the scores get input to GHIN.

 

At my old club the secretary was assigned that duty. He entered all the scores for a "club day" to GHIN. Outside of the club though, the players themselves were expected to enter those scores (or not).

 

I belong to an informal club right now. They use the phone to keep the scores and the results are ready pretty much as the last group comes in.

 

That works pretty well but they keep their "club" handicap separately from GHIN and use only the club handicap for comps so we have to input the day's score into GHIN ourselves.

It's a public course owned/operated by the town. The league is mostly run by the 2 assistant pros. We have a 9 page pdf that says, among other things:

 

Rules...

Handicaps must be established. You must post every score whether you play 
at home or away. 

 

All USGA rules govern play, except where modified by local rules...

 

HANDICAP PROCEDURES AND SCORE POSTING

World Handicap System- With a daily update occurring with the new 
handicap system, BGC will use indexes from the Sunday prior to each event. 
 Each player is responsible for posting his or her own score in the handicap 
computer.

Handicaps will update daily for 2021
 Ask the pro shop staff for assistance with any questions

 

 

The HS golf coach plays in the league and my experience is that the top gross players follow the ROG, but many of the other players don't know or care to follow all the rules (especially with penalty areas and drops). Fwiw, I got paired with a guy in the club championship who had heard I was a rules fanatic (or something similar). I actually think the ROG could be improved and simplified, but feel its best for everyone to play by the same rules rather than each player making what they feel are logical adjustments.

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by SkiSchoolPro

[Colin L]

25 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

We get that point and agree. If you read the original post in this thread it sure seems to me we know he has played this year….and not posted any scores for two years.

 

Do you consider that a valid handicap?

It is a valid handicap because the WHS Rules say it is.

 

Do I consider what this guy has done is satisfactory?  Of course not.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Colin L

[SkiSchoolPro]

2 minutes ago, Colin L said:

It is a valid handicap because the WHS Rules say it is.

So its valid because you are expected, but not required to post. That's dumb.

[Shilgy]

14 minutes ago, Colin L said:

It is a valid handicap because the WHS Rules say it is.

 

Do I consider what this guy has done is satisfactory?  Of course not.

Not valid at my club with known scores not being posted.

 

I understand what you are saying and without knowing the story he would likely be welcome to play at your club.  But at his home course with known scores not posted even should be banned from competition or suffer an extreme adjustment by the handicap committee.

[DaveLeeNC]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Not valid at my club with known scores not being posted.

 

I understand what you are saying and without knowing the story he would likely be welcome to play at your club.  But at his home course with known scores not posted even should be banned from competition or suffer an extreme adjustment by the handicap committee.

The missing ingredient here is an active local handicap committee. That is where enforcement actions can and should take place when the conditions of the competition don't handle it. 

 

dave